How did Gran Turismo Sport make GT franchise no longer a laughing stock?

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I don't think the GT franchise to be a laughing stock. Played GT since the start. It fed and nurtured my love for motorsports. It's provided me with countless hour's of racing. Covering ten's of thousands miles over the past 20 years. It's the reason why I'm a member of this site. It's why I've come to know some great people through racing and gtplanet (gtpwrs & storagetrunks:bowdown:).

Couldn't wait for sport to come out after playing both beta's. The online racing with ranking and penalty system, the championships. All of this was what I wanted from a racing game. Finally fun, fast, close racing when ever it suits. Nearly a year and a half later I play iracing. :confused: just gtsport ain't my thing it didn't provide the racing i wanted iracing does, currently and probably for a while. I guess you like it or you don't, it gives you what you want or it doesn't. GT, Forza, Pcars, iracing etc all could do with improvements and need certain things changed or have something missing. That's just life nothing can be (truly) perfect. Absolutely nothing wrong with saying GT or any sim racing game to be laughing stock or the best. Today with so much choice I think it comes down to what you want and expect from a sim racing game. And just because we prefer one over the other we shouldn't automatically believe someone to be wrong when they have a different contradictory opinion. If we had a sound scientific method to determine which is the best racing sim then maybe. But that can't happen because racing involves emotions and feelings which is subjective and... (I'll leave that alone)

At the end of the day the only thing that matters is the racing. :gtpflag:
 
Scaff
I 100% agree that PC and PC2 are difficult titles to get t grips with using a controller (@Wolfe may be able to help with that as he has settings that a lot of people find work well). GTS is certainly better optimised for a controller, but some of that is also down to baked in aids for the controller, and as such its once again another balancing act.
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The problem with PC2 controller settings is what might feel right in modern prototypes can feel off in road cars - and vice versa. So it's a matter of finding a middle ground that is jack of all trades. This is not an issue in AC, although it took me a long time to dial in controller-friendly settings that worked for me. Simply put, AC controller settings that work in one car also work in the next one. For GTS I use DS4 motion control support. Partly because it feels too sluggish and dampened with the stick, and the general lack of sensitivity settings left me with no other option.

Scaff
Playing devils advocate here, how much of that intuitive is down to you simply being more familiar with GT as a series than FM as a series? I would be willing to bet it would not be hard to find people with the opposite viewpoint to this.
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Over the last three years I have played way more FM than I have played GT. Much of this has to do with the fact that FM was quick to release titles for current generation consoles, whereas GTS took forever to launch.

To be more specific, some of the undesirable quirks with FM7 physics include:
  • Some RR drivetrain cars feeling far too weightless on the front. Try driving a Porsche 997 GT3 RS, flat out through the left-hand kink near Kesselchen at the Nordschleife. The car will lift its nose to the point where it feels like the rear tires are scraping against the wheel cases. When this happens it takes more luck than skill to avoid a crash. I get that RR drivetrain have most of their weight resting on the far rear, but what I just exemplified suggests a considerable physics flaw due to the sheer drama of it. Not all RR cars in FM7 this trait, but those that do feel completely off. The issue even exists on some cars with FR drivetrains.
  • Many powerful MR and RR road cars are not able to perform burnouts or throttle-induced oversteer on stock tire compounds. This issue is probably a combination of the tire model and how this model is affected by drivetrain weight distribution.
  • Nearly all cars exhibit tendencies to pronounced lift-off oversteer, which seems particularly weird on cars which in reality are not known for having this trait.
Some of the above points on FM7 can be managed with delicate inputs, but most of the time these inputs rely on muscle memory from trial and error rather than intuition. GTS can also be blamed for physics deficiencies, but despite having its own flaws, it rarely behaves in ways I find counter-intuitive.
 
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o000o
Can you elaborate for the messes? Apart from the general knowledge standard cars and vacuum cleaner sounds obviously.
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GT5:
- Horrible framerate that can barely hold ever hold a locked 60
- Very inconsistent graphics, some tracks look good while others are carried over from last gen
- Little to no visual damage (at that time, games like NFS Shift, Grid, and even Forza had it)
- 4/5 of the car list was PS2 models that were solely there to say "1000 cars"!
- No visual customization, the infuriating paint chip system returns
- Online just wasnt good (IMO)
- Campaign that is a regression from GT4
- And as you said, audio was outright horrible (I swear some of those tire squeal sounds are from GT1)
In other words, you can clearly tell started development as a GT4 port, it shows

Just very inconsistent and bloated game, at least in my opinion.
 
Flashfire926
GT5:
- Horrible framerate that can barely hold ever hold a locked 60
- Very inconsistent graphics, some tracks look good while others are carried over from last gen
- Little to no visual damage (at that time, games like NFS Shift, Grid, and even Forza had it)
- 4/5 of the car list was PS2 models that were solely there to say "1000 cars"!
- No visual customization, the infuriating paint chip system returns
- Online just wasnt good (IMO)
- Campaign that is a regression from GT4
- And as you said, audio was outright horrible (I swear some of those tire squeal sounds are from GT1)
In other words, you can clearly tell started development as a GT4 port, it shows

Just very inconsistent and bloated game, at least in my opinion.
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Too many negatives but even with them, I still wouldn't consider the game a laughing stock because I'm able to enjoy playing it.
 
jflomario
It should be. Polyphony is at a tremendous advantage compared to everyone else. If they weren't a first party dev, I'd agree with you.
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The claim was that GTS is the best racing sim on a console, given that it's not the best simulation of racing on console (in that regard - being a sim - both AC and PC2 lead the way) then first party doesn't even come into it.
 
Scaff
The claim was that GTS is the best racing sim on a console, given that it's not the best simulation of racing on console (in that regard - being a sim - both AC and PC2 lead the way) then first party doesn't even come into it.
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Cool. No problem. I'm saying that because GT does poorly as a video game then it should get the sim part right. Look at the emphasis on FIA.

Meanwhile Forza knows it's going after casuals and throws all of it's might into a less intimidating yet somewhat accurate representation of racing. The Xbox controller is the definitive way to play. And Turn 10 is anapologetic about it.

GT can't satisfy the sim guys and gets nowhere with people who just like video games. Jack-of-all-trades and mediocre or less at all of them. The other one is "unrealistic" but does well as a video game.
 
Scaff
The claim was that GTS is the best racing sim on a console, given that it's not the best simulation of racing on console (in that regard - being a sim - both AC and PC2 lead the way) then first party doesn't even come into it.
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I kinda agree with this.
 
Scaff
The claim was that GTS is the best racing sim on a console, given that it's not the best simulation of racing on console (in that regard - being a sim - both AC and PC2 lead the way) then first party doesn't even come into it.
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I love playing GTS but it doesn't always feel that close to real life racing. When I play Project Cars 2, it feels closer to real life racing because of the track evolution and weather conditions. These extra variables make life more interesting even if it can prove more frustrating sometimes. You also have issues of tyres overheating if you run an aggressive setup or equip the wrong tyre. Sadly if GT Sport ever had these variables, people simply wouldn't play it because it'd be too difficult for them. Thankfully I can feed my sim racing addiction with Project Cars 2.
 
For me I became burned out on GT after GT4. Up until then I played the Forza series and GT series from the beginning and loved both for different reasons.
GT was stagnant, and Forza was amazeballs with FM4. I skipped GT5 altogether, had a huge online group for FM4 and enjoyed the online racing and marketplace.
Then FM5 showed up kinda flat, then 6 was a shade better but both took steps backwards from 4. Finally I purchase FM7 ultimate and am in total shock and dismay at its state at launch. 30 days later I refund, but am needing to scratch that racing itch.

That’s where GT Sport rears it’s gorgeous head. At first I was all nostalgic about the great artful design and music just navigating around. I really missed the way PD connects you with the game and the cars through small things like the motor revving of the car you selected while loading, or the way it drives up when u purchase a new one. Then I delved into Photomode and was so amazed again at how great and gorgeous this mode is. This was also my first time giving online on PS4 and GT a try, and the racing was so much better than FM had been in awhile. Close, clean, and lag free fun. Plus custom public lobbies. The daily races are also nice.
What put it over the top for me was the sound! I play on either Astro A50s, or my 5.2.1 Atmos home theater. I took out the Shelby Cobra 427 on reference volume and was amazed. Finally they got it right, for the most part. GT is still the only racing game I can spend hours on doing time trials, taking Photos or racing online. I’m just in love with it all over again. Still open to other racing games, but GT is working well for me, and has improved for me over its past iterations.
 
GTV0819
Too many negatives but even with them, I still wouldn't consider the game a laughing stock because I'm able to enjoy playing it.
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But those are what people use to attack GT, turning it into a laughing stock (during PS3 era)
jflomario
Cool. No problem. I'm saying that because GT does poorly as a video game then it should get the sim part right. Look at the emphasis on FIA.

Meanwhile Forza knows it's going after casuals and throws all of it's might into a less intimidating yet somewhat accurate representation of racing. The Xbox controller is the definitive way to play. And Turn 10 is anapologetic about it.

GT can't satisfy the sim guys and gets nowhere with people who just like video games. Jack-of-all-trades and mediocre or less at all of them. The other one is "unrealistic" but does well as a video game.
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People who just like video games are already less likely to play racing ones (apart from NFS perhaps), but yeah PD needs to stop catering for casuals (they tried to make the game more 'accessible' by less realistic).
 
o000o
But those are what people use to attack GT, turning it into a laughing stock (during PS3 era)
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I know. Like I said, the game isn't a perfect racing game at all but I'm still able to enjoy it, regardless of these complaints. I just wished that it was a lot better but it doesn't dissapoint me at all. Not sure about GT Sport though.
 
I feel like deliberately inflamatory thread titles like these even if backed by reasoned argument is bound to rub people up the wrong way.

I have enjoyed GT Sport and continue to do so up until the very end.

For this I paid the princely sum of $25 our money (plus a $400 ps4 5 years ago).

Its value for that. I know it lacks some things but I feel like they are either coming or you would be silly to expect them in the first place (like damage).

I feel like the $25 is more value than I've gotten from FH4 (which I kind of regret buying) and its certainly more than the insanity I had with Forza 6 when I got the ultimate edition whatever which was $100+!

I'm not expecting miracles with GT Sport. Temper your expectations.

If I suddenly dont like it the local EB would give me back $15 for the disc!
 
Scaff
The claim was that GTS is the best racing sim on a console, given that it's not the best simulation of racing on console (in that regard - being a sim - both AC and PC2 lead the way) then first party doesn't even come into it.
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Race simulator or car simulator?

Outside of self organized league racing, I wouldn't really describe AC or PC2's online racing scenes as actually "racing". GTS doesn't have as many fiddly car settings as the other games but I can't imagine actually trying to race cleanly online in those other games.
 
BallPtPenTheif
Race simulator or car simulator?
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Both, particularly if we are talking about off-line racing......


BallPtPenTheif
Outside of self organized league racing, I wouldn't really describe AC or PC2's online racing scenes as actually "racing". GTS doesn't have as many fiddly car settings as the other games but I can't imagine actually trying to race cleanly online in those other games.
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....AC I would agree, but in terms of having penalties and a licence system PC2 is as good as GTS. The only area GTS is better in this regard is the match-making system.


So overall as a race simulator or a car simulator GTS isn't the best on console.
 
I speak for myself: the PS3 era was pretty ugly for me as a long time GT player. Standard cars, standard tracks like Deep Forest, boring and uninspired career mode and so on. For all its peaks, there were like ten more flaws.
Now, it's all about quality and it's the best way to build a solid GT7. Sure, many things missing like original tracks, challenging AI, tuning..., we just have to wait. Next step for Poly: make GT cool again. No more of this static camera view in 2019. And bring back actual good music.
 
queleuleu
I speak for myself: the PS3 era was pretty ugly for me as a long time GT player. Standard cars, standard tracks like Deep Forest, boring and uninspired career mode and so on. For all its peaks, there were like ten more flaws.
Now, it's all about quality and it's the best way to build a solid GT7. Sure, many things missing like original tracks, challenging AI, tuning..., we just have to wait. Next step for Poly: make GT cool again. No more of this static camera view in 2019. And bring back actual good music.
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You forgot one main thing; the freaky, hilarious engine sounds. On a note though, PD seemed to have fixed that in GT Sport. So I guess it wouldn't be an issue anymore.
 
GTV0819
You forgot one main thing; the freaky, hilarious engine sounds. On a note though, PD seemed to have fixed that in GT Sport. So I guess it wouldn't be an issue anymore.
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Funny that. I loaded and did one race in each of GT5 and GT6 just the other day. You know what? There was nothing wrong with the sound of the cars. One car each game of course, but I reckon the quality or lack of engine sound is down to the sound system playing it.
 
queleuleu
I speak for myself: the PS3 era was pretty ugly for me as a long time GT player. Standard cars, standard tracks like Deep Forest, boring and uninspired career mode and so on. For all its peaks, there were like ten more flaws.
Now, it's all about quality and it's the best way to build a solid GT7. Sure, many things missing like original tracks, challenging AI, tuning..., we just have to wait. Next step for Poly: make GT cool again. No more of this static camera view in 2019. And bring back actual good music.
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Nostalgia aside, how will you compare the career mode of GT2/GT3/GT4 against GT5/GT6? And for 'boring and uninspired career mode', the 'all about quality' you speak now still includes those (even worse GT League has no championships for example).
 
o000o
Nostalgia aside, how will you compare the career mode of GT2/GT3/GT4 against GT5/GT6? And for 'boring and uninspired career mode', the 'all about quality' you speak now still includes those (even worse GT League has no championships for example).
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GT League is clearly an afterthought and far from being perfect. IMO, it's more about damage control from Poly.
Career mode? I have my opinion: Poly has lost its ability to make plenty of events for some reasons. The 300km at Grand Valley is probably the most famous event of GT: the event is gone in GT6 and now the track itself in GTSport :lol: (still used as a logo for track in game)
 
queleuleu
GT League is clearly an afterthought and far from being perfect. IMO, it's more about damage control from Poly.
Career mode? I have my opinion: Poly has lost its ability to make plenty of events for some reasons. The 300km at Grand Valley is probably the most famous event of GT: the event is gone in GT6 and now the track itself in GTSport :lol: (still used as a logo for track in game)
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They studied the save data from GT5. so how few people are playing through each successive GT hall with the least number in the endurance hall and reached the wrong conclusions. Since they'd made a game with leveling in it. It became a game about leveling so gaining XP was primary activity. That was granted by online seasonals, therefore that is what everyone did. PD looked at the save data and reached the wrong conclusions. We have been living with that same wrong conclusion data ever since.
 
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Tired Tyres
Funny that. I loaded and did one race in each of GT5 and GT6 just the other day. You know what? There was nothing wrong with the sound of the cars. One car each game of course, but I reckon the quality or lack of engine sound is down to the sound system playing it.
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Well, many players say that it really pales in comparison to the other racing games like, you know, Forza, NFS, etc. Even the diesel cars in the game didn't have the right engine sounds. That's why I had to point it out.
 
From what I have read it seems like many folks coming from the history of the game want it to be like the others with this gt league aspect and I guess rags to riches car mod concept.
It also seems many on the more sim side are predisposed to look at the Gran Turismo franchise in a certain light...
The game as released was more arcadey by far than as it plays now. I remember watching a z stream just after the first physics update and Dragon Trail he bins it on the chicane. He couldn’t get the magic effect of cars cutting in on turn in. I experienced the same thing. The game got a little tougher right there. I also think maybe a lot of the folks on the more sim side played the game as released and were like yep, confirmed it’s Gran Turismo.
As it is now though, in comparison to AC on console driving the vette on Nurb gp, AC nerfed the ffb compared to Gt Sport. I ran em back to back. The car is lifeless on AC in its stock form ffb wise, which I found shocking.
To be fair though, GT is more forgiving for a gt3 car, very noticeable on Schumacher.
My question would be, Is either better?
Graphically, no contest. Sound, I’d give an edge to AC, but not much. AC is harder to play than Gt Sport.
So, if you are Gran Turismo, and you can choose how the game plays, is it in your interest to favor the hardcore sim people or the larger market? It’s not a question of what PD is capable of, it’s a question of what is the best business decision. I’m not even going to go there on physics, there’s plenty of experts here who will explain everything in the world about it, I will just concede physics to AC, which results in a more difficult game to play.
So, Sport being an online game, in which participation is important is a bit more forgiving than AC, because if it were not, it wouldn’t have much playerbase.
The thing I love about GT Sport is if I want a race, boom got it...Live competition. Everything that goes with live competition is there, dirty drivers and all. Imo, the ffb and physics as they are today are very very good, just a bit forgiving overall. Small driving mistakes when you are not at the limit will not send you flying off track like they will in AC.
Guess what? That’s what makes Sport so popular. It’s intuitive to drive, and real ENOUGH to be totally immersive, without making unapproachable. I mean hotlapping is engaging, it’s fun to drive, it’s challenging,
Imo PD made a great decision with where the game is right now.
So, for me, I play AC when I want different content, or to race their AI once in a while just goofing off.
GT Sport I play to qualify and race or join a lobby to race. I’ve used livery editor a bunch and done some scapes too, but I just like to make liveries to make my car unique, not gonna go to the level of many who do seriously fantastic work. In Sport, controller players become formidable foes for wheel users. The two compete on equal footing, which I think is one reason Sports great for pickup racing.
I can see Sport having the weakness of not being a tuners game. Or is that a strength? For me, if I am online racing, I have to know I am on equal ground with those I am competing against. Maybe it’s not Uber sim realism but I value fair competition over playing against someone who found a tuning hack and renders me impotent.
Skill vs skill, that’s what I like most about GT.
From what I read it seems this laughingstock thing and constant attempts to attack Sports technicalities by comparing to ‘true sim’ games are what they are. Those folks will argue about it till the cows come home.
To me though, they ar missing the point of the game. The point is to have fun competition on equal footing and pit skill (in car control not tuning) against skill. It’s done a fine job of that and it’s being improved more all the time, and with better hardware who knows where the title will go.
I think many want these classic tracks, but I wonder if PD will do it. I personally don’t have much interest in it at all. I’d rather have more new to the game real ones.
This is a rambling post just kind of off the top of my head, but I guess I would say I think PD is making all the right moves right now. Game is accessible to any form of control. Looks unbelievable, sounds pretty good, ffb tells you what you need to know, hopefully daily a will be more interesting going forward, there’s no errors in physics or glaring physics probs anymore. Tire model needs a bit more enhancement, need to add a couple classes like group c by itself, sort n class bop, but all in all, as a package, imo it’s the best product for roadracing online on PS4 for anyone who hasn’t invested the energy into becoming a super hardcore simrace person.
I consider myself pretty into what I would call simracing, but hardcore? Nah.
Again I just think PD has struck a very good balance with this title.
Laughingstock? Nah.

Stay thirsty, my friends.
 
Groundfish
From what I have read it seems like many folks coming from the history of the game want it to be like the others with this gt league aspect and I guess rags to riches car mod concept.
It also seems many on the more sim side are predisposed to look at the Gran Turismo franchise in a certain light...
The game as released was more arcadey by far than as it plays now. I remember watching a z stream just after the first physics update and Dragon Trail he bins it on the chicane. He couldn’t get the magic effect of cars cutting in on turn in. I experienced the same thing. The game got a little tougher right there. I also think maybe a lot of the folks on the more sim side played the game as released and were like yep, confirmed it’s Gran Turismo.
As it is now though, in comparison to AC on console driving the vette on Nurb gp, AC nerfed the ffb compared to Gt Sport. I ran em back to back. The car is lifeless on AC in its stock form ffb wise, which I found shocking.
To be fair though, GT is more forgiving for a gt3 car, very noticeable on Schumacher.
My question would be, Is either better?
Graphically, no contest. Sound, I’d give an edge to AC, but not much. AC is harder to play than Gt Sport.
So, if you are Gran Turismo, and you can choose how the game plays, is it in your interest to favor the hardcore sim people or the larger market? It’s not a question of what PD is capable of, it’s a question of what is the best business decision. I’m not even going to go there on physics, there’s plenty of experts here who will explain everything in the world about it, I will just concede physics to AC, which results in a more difficult game to play.
So, Sport being an online game, in which participation is important is a bit more forgiving than AC, because if it were not, it wouldn’t have much playerbase.
The thing I love about GT Sport is if I want a race, boom got it...Live competition. Everything that goes with live competition is there, dirty drivers and all. Imo, the ffb and physics as they are today are very very good, just a bit forgiving overall. Small driving mistakes when you are not at the limit will not send you flying off track like they will in AC.
Guess what? That’s what makes Sport so popular. It’s intuitive to drive, and real ENOUGH to be totally immersive, without making unapproachable. I mean hotlapping is engaging, it’s fun to drive, it’s challenging,
Imo PD made a great decision with where the game is right now.
So, for me, I play AC when I want different content, or to race their AI once in a while just goofing off.
GT Sport I play to qualify and race or join a lobby to race. I’ve used livery editor a bunch and done some scapes too, but I just like to make liveries to make my car unique, not gonna go to the level of many who do seriously fantastic work. In Sport, controller players become formidable foes for wheel users. The two compete on equal footing, which I think is one reason Sports great for pickup racing.
I can see Sport having the weakness of not being a tuners game. Or is that a strength? For me, if I am online racing, I have to know I am on equal ground with those I am competing against. Maybe it’s not Uber sim realism but I value fair competition over playing against someone who found a tuning hack and renders me impotent.
Skill vs skill, that’s what I like most about GT.
From what I read it seems this laughingstock thing and constant attempts to attack Sports technicalities by comparing to ‘true sim’ games are what they are. Those folks will argue about it till the cows come home.
To me though, they ar missing the point of the game. The point is to have fun competition on equal footing and pit skill (in car control not tuning) against skill. It’s done a fine job of that and it’s being improved more all the time, and with better hardware who knows where the title will go.
I think many want these classic tracks, but I wonder if PD will do it. I personally don’t have much interest in it at all. I’d rather have more new to the game real ones.
This is a rambling post just kind of off the top of my head, but I guess I would say I think PD is making all the right moves right now. Game is accessible to any form of control. Looks unbelievable, sounds pretty good, ffb tells you what you need to know, hopefully daily a will be more interesting going forward, there’s no errors in physics or glaring physics probs anymore. Tire model needs a bit more enhancement, need to add a couple classes like group c by itself, sort n class bop, but all in all, as a package, imo it’s the best product for roadracing online on PS4 for anyone who hasn’t invested the energy into becoming a super hardcore simrace person.
I consider myself pretty into what I would call simracing, but hardcore? Nah.
Again I just think PD has struck a very good balance with this title.
Laughingstock? Nah.

Stay thirsty, my friends.
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Personally, I would like racing games to stop restricting everything behind gameplay. I can keep every car on track minus the Red Bull F1 car.

Why must I re-unlock cars in every iteration? My driving knowledge didn't disappear in between games.

That and the fragmented game design is what makes the game a "laughing stock".

Getting to level 40 in GT5 was a full time job. Without online it was near impossible. The whole, "wait for things to get good approach" died with last gen.

Forza is full of rammers online but it has an offline component. Getting to the top in GT should be easy but it isn't . It's only saving grace is the gameplay but even that was built around grinding before it became popular(microtransactions).

Tracks should only be locked away in fictional and arcade games. Not in an adult's game like GT. After GTA online and NBA 2K, Gran Turismo has the worst career progression ever.

Sport is a lot easier compared to past titles but it still relies on "carrot on a stick" progression.
 

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