How does the pp system work?
- Thread starter Darragh
- 31 comments
- 2,450 views
- 559
- Southampton Hants UK
- magicayrton
"How does it work" it doesn't.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
- 15,434
- TRAPPIST-1g
- ProjectWHaT
coding and math(s) that were made by Polyphony Digital. Insert Horsepower, weight, etc. and outcomes your PP
- 309
- Galway
- Artful_Alonso14
I presume pp only considers straight line speed and acceleration, as updating a higher brake kit or hardened suspension does not have an effect. But when you change to a triple plate clutch, the pp stays the same, but it supposedly increases performance. I'm going to say it's a formula which includes power weight aerodynamics and air resistance...
- 140
- Chatham, Kent
- Gentoo64
I have no idea why a Focus RS / Civic is faster than most tuned supercars. PP also means nothing when RS comes into it, some cars _really_ take advantage of them while slower cars on RS can beat them on SH tyres.
FWD isn't always the best, but on RS they are hard to fault as you get none of the drawbacks at all of FWD... no loss of grip and no understeer.
Also PP doesn't take into account the cars characteristics, look at the Mazda RX500 for example you can lift off on a hell of a lot of corners without even touching the brakes, combine that with light weight and good acceleration that's why a 500PP RX500 destroys say a 500PP Lotus Carlton, although PP level would suggest they should be at least a bit similar in performance when they're not at all. Cars are just the way they are, some are faster with less power (less PP) on some tracks, and some cars are faster than others (my 500PP Opera S2000 is faster by at least a second or 2 on Brands Hatch short than my other 550PP Mugen S2000)
FWD isn't always the best, but on RS they are hard to fault as you get none of the drawbacks at all of FWD... no loss of grip and no understeer.
Also PP doesn't take into account the cars characteristics, look at the Mazda RX500 for example you can lift off on a hell of a lot of corners without even touching the brakes, combine that with light weight and good acceleration that's why a 500PP RX500 destroys say a 500PP Lotus Carlton, although PP level would suggest they should be at least a bit similar in performance when they're not at all. Cars are just the way they are, some are faster with less power (less PP) on some tracks, and some cars are faster than others (my 500PP Opera S2000 is faster by at least a second or 2 on Brands Hatch short than my other 550PP Mugen S2000)
- 41,063
We must consult with the expert on this.I didn't realize it did work, when did they fix it?
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
^ This. In very few instances does it actually work.
- 559
- Southampton Hants UK
- magicayrton
No it doesn't 550pp ruf yellow bird is slower than my Lotus esprit (550pp) and my Elise (550pp) is faster than both, this has been tried and tested over and over in my online room. so? Is that what you call working?
- 12,018
- Indianapolis
- BrandonW77
I was agreeing with you mate. There are a few instances where it works but for the most part it's worthless.
- 508
- canada
- jakebG18
- none,because my 1st 4 rrod'ed
no one wants to know how my brain pictured thiscoding and math(s) that were made by Polyphony Digital. Insert Horsepower, weight, etc. and outcomes your PP
thank you for making me embarrass myself by laughing hysterically in public 
- 196
- Essex, UK
- Diplomatti
I always thought it was just a number set by PD employees.
Taking one or two examples is incorrect. I reckon if you took several, say 10, different 550 PP cars with the same tires around the same track, about 6 would be very close in time, and 2 or 4 notably faster or slower. PP does work, it was never declared to be an exact measure of a car's speed.
For Seasonal TT, in GT5 that were any car allowed but tires and PP capped ; yes, the fast boys quickly discovered the best cars at that PP, (2J ?)
@mtsmtts:
"To show what I'm talking about, let's take my Elise 111R for this test: Custom power parts: Engine Stage 1; Sports Computer; Racing Exhaust; Isometric Manifold; Catalytic converter Sports; Intake tuning;
Power Limiter ------ PP ----- HP ----- Torque (ft-lb)
100% .............................517.........280...............184.
................................................... ..................................Using formula Weight = 865 kg
98,1%.............................515.........275...............184
......................................................................................Using 865 kg then formula PP= 514
50,0%.............................432.........140...............169
......................................................................................Using 865 kg then Formula PP = 407
..
With this data, we discovered that:"
The MS excel derived regression formula is close for your example. You didn't provide the Kg but the formula says the 111R in this test was 865 kg. At the 50% HP the formula falls away from actual, that's OK, it's not exact.
Torque is a red herring in this, others have pointed out that Hp = Constant*T*rpm
So if you think T is there than the important factor is (T ^ 2) * rpm, Can you see T and rpm changes for every power mod? By stressing torque than you have you have to forget about HP. I don't think PD's internal algorithm is so complex, GT5/6 is primarily a visual
Rendering processor.
- 140
- Chatham, Kent
- Gentoo64
Yes, have you not seen Civics and Focus RS around the ring? As they are FWD, have basically no downforce, and have less power than a lot of supercars they should never be able to completely obliterate. Not saying these cars are the only fast cars, but for what they are they shouldn't be so fast, especially as they are so easy to drive and easy to drive perfectly they're a bit noob and boring when lots of people race them.
- 18
- Argentina
- Manguitas27
It's weird how the system works. And i'm going to give an example: my focus ST170, with 295hp and 1200kg has 470pp. And the civic, same specs, has 462pp. What do we owe the difference? Torque, mainly, because the focus has 289ft-lb, while the civic has barely 250ft-lb. They ae capable of setting a time, in monza, of 1:53.2. Easy.
Then, we bring the focus ST'13. Same specs, a hell lot more of torque (around 330), 474pp, and it wont do better than 1:54.8. We talking with RS.
I get it, the weight distribution is not the same, but how do you interpretate this? A civic, with 12pp less, can turn so much faster? Something smells funny.
Then, we bring the focus ST'13. Same specs, a hell lot more of torque (around 330), 474pp, and it wont do better than 1:54.8. We talking with RS.
I get it, the weight distribution is not the same, but how do you interpretate this? A civic, with 12pp less, can turn so much faster? Something smells funny.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Hybriding in GT5 taught me that each car has a set level of overall grip and I don't think the PP system takes that grip into account or if it does, it undervalues the lower grip levels of some cars and overvalues the horsepower gain that results from the lower grip.
For example here are two cars:
Car A - 500 PP, 350HP, 1200 kgs, Grip level 100
Car B - 500 PP, 400HP, 1200 kgs, Grip level 90
Car B has more HP but less grip and under the PP system they are supposed to be somewhat equal on the track but they are not. That's because the PP system overvalues the HP and undervalues the lost grip.
With hybriding in GT5 all you had to do to make uncompetitive cars competitive was increase their grip level and trade off some hp for the same PP. A 69' Vette for example was around 400HP at 500PP and nowhere near competitive, about 3 seconds or more off the pace at Deep Forest. Change the grip multiplier to 110 (from a base of 100) and you lose 50 hp but gain a ton of grip and remain at 500PP. Still not as fast as the fastest cars but the car was about 2 seconds faster and went from being an also ran on the track to competitive with that one simple change.
The PP system just doesn't deal with differences in grip very well and that's it's biggest weakness..IMO. Nothing is more important on the track than grip.
- 785
- Podium, Center
- Tha-Ghoast
- huh?
- 18
- Argentina
- Manguitas27
@Johnnypenso I share your thoughts. It seems a plausible explanation.
- 559
- Southampton Hants UK
- magicayrton
Sorry, I am a typical Aries jumping to conclusions!
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