How I play GTS, anyone else?

[Lord Protector]

I dunno, I'm a plebeian without a drivers license I wouldn't know, but it has gotten to the point where it feels pretty natural to me, I have a good idea of when the tyres will slip before it happens.

I’m sure you do, because you play it really often (I guess). It’s something you have learnt, what to do specifically in this game, in specific scenarious. That’s different from what others do, like people in this thread, they predict certain car’ behaviour, which doesn’t happen at all and then confusion and frustration begins.

Please don’t feel offended I’m not saying anything bad about you.

I also get what @kevlar_hybrid is trying to say. Often the best all-around corner strategy is a wide entry, hit apex, steer as much as possible with as little throttle as possible and then floor it when steering is mostly done.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

I’m sure you do, because you play it really often (I guess). It’s something you have learnt, what to do specifically in this game, in specific scenarious. That’s different from what others do, like people in this thread, they predict certain car’ behaviour, which doesn’t happen at all and then confusion and frustration begins.

Please don’t feel offended I’m not saying anything bad about you.

Yes, this. In fact it would be easier if it WAS Wipeout. Because there's no expectation going in and they're not trying to "simulate" anything. Learn how the game allows you to be quick and simply do that better than the rest.

My, and I suspect your, problem is expecting the car to behave like a car.

-- edit below --

I also get what @kevlar_hybrid is trying to say. Often the best all-around corner strategy is a wide entry, hit apex, steer as much as possible with as little throttle as possible and then floor it when steering is mostly done.

Indeed, I became aware of this strategy by listening to the mic sound from players like Kie, Jomas and Z28. There was a constant "slapping" noise on exit which puzzled me until I realised it was a binary full throttle application. I then watched their steering inputs (or rather removal of input) in relation to this and it all made sense. You can watch some of the guys wrench off the steering quite unrealistically just after late apex. Which is the quickest way as you can then get the 100% throttle slap in get drive out of the corner which is not otherwise available by feeding in throttle while off steering.

 

[mclarenLB]

I’m sure you do, because you play it really often (I guess). It’s something you have learnt, what to do specifically in this game, in specific scenarious. That’s different from what others do, like people in this thread, they predict certain car’ behaviour, which doesn’t happen at all and then confusion and frustration begins.

Please don’t feel offended I’m not saying anything bad about you.

I've been known to disappear for weeks at a time, but I'm pretty regular for the most part yeah. I think if you wanted to be really good at any sim-racing game, you'd need to drop other games in the genre for the most part as they all have their unique characteristics which you can only learn by spending a long time in that game. I don't know of any top-top tier guy in any game who actively plays 2 different games at the highest level.

 

[Lord Protector]

I've been known to disappear for weeks at a time, but I'm pretty regular for the most part yeah. I think if you wanted to be really good at any sim-racing game, you'd need to drop other games in the genre for the most part as they all have their unique characteristics which you can only learn by spending a long time in that game. I don't know of any top-top tier guy in any game who actively plays 2 different games at the highest level.

You’re right! And sadly, with this approach I shouldn’t drive my weekly car because one day I’ll probably kill myself

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

If you watch @TRL LIGHTNING, he's basically the fastest there is and drives insanely smooth and progressively on the throttle, he barely lets the tyres slip.

Oh, he's an alien alright! But even then, check out his quickest lap during this stream at Fuji in Gr 2 (it starts in the right place)



I see much better throttle control which is almost not possible with my T300 pedals (I'd be interested to know which pedals he uses) but I also see basically only two positions above 50% (which is my contention here). 75% and 100%. This is still, in my opinion, demonstrative of the abysmal non linear throttle map denying the driver of throttle finesse above 50%. He still exhibits the slam it on behaviour that the game rewards. He could be even better than this with more ability to hold finer increments in the >50% range. This is a skill ceiling that's been imposed on him and us that I would like to see removed.

 

[Knukel]

That is the common message all across the internet. Doesn’t make it true. You have to define what is better ffb?
More canned effects? More bumps and shakes? More adjustability to make it feel how you like? Is that realism or adjustability?

Driving feel/FFB from car to car is very identical in GTS. So i quess it's understandable why many prefer GTS's FFB over some other games.

Personally i don't think it's possible to pick a car you absolutely love or hate to drive in GTS (if you ignore difficulty & visuals etc), as none of them require greater steering inputs or effort at any speed.
I hardly felt the difference when i switched from Ford Focus to Mustang March 4 as the steering weight, inputs & car's reactiveness at corner entry were pretty similiar. Haven't driven a muscle/vintage car in real life, but i'd expect them to have loose and heavy steering compared to modern ones, then the differential 'twisting' the car/steering wheel to opposite lock:

It's a great feel in AC and PCars 2, but never felt it in Gran Turismo. Actually, in GT5/6 either rear wheel already lost traction before it had any effect in the steering. In GTS it's a instant drift/spin <- 'slide state' nullifying the car's characteristics.

FFB is much more than just bumps and shakes, aka "effects"... FFB should vary from car to car & especially from different era or car class.

Sry for bad english & possibly incorrect terms.

 

[WheelmanSteve]

My, and I suspect your, problem is expecting the car to behave like a car.

Pretty much read my mind.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

Regarding the FFB, here's something interesting to try.

- Drive some laps with FFB turned down to as low as it can go.
- Drive some laps with the sound turned off.
- Drive some laps in all the different views of / from the car.

Which thing gives you more information about the condition of the car? For me it was pretty clear, FFB is mostly 'effects'. Indeed turning it right down allowed me to be quicker as I could counter-steer the 'Slide State' quicker and the pseudo self-centering of the wheel didn't fight against it.

 

[Groundfish]

Driving feel/FFB from car to car is very identical in GTS. So i quess it's understandable why many prefer GTS's FFB over some other games.

Personally i don't think it's possible to pick a car you absolutely love or hate to drive in GTS (if you ignore difficulty & visuals etc), as none of them require greater steering inputs or effort at any speed.
I hardly felt the difference when i switched from Ford Focus to Mustang March 4 as the steering weight, inputs & car's reactiveness at corner entry were pretty similiar. Haven't driven a muscle/vintage car in real life, but i'd expect them to have loose and heavy steering compared to modern ones, then the differential 'twisting' the car/steering wheel to opposite lock:

It's a great feel in AC and PCars 2, but never felt it in Gran Turismo. Actually, in GT5/6 the inner wheel already lost traction before it had any effect in the steering. In GTS it's a instant drift/spin <- 'slide state' nullifying the car's characteristics.

It's much more than just bumps and shakes, aka "effects". FFB should vary from car to car, especially from different era.

Sry for bad english & ipossibly incorrect terms.

I’d say the opposite. There’s no two cars in gr4 that are the same.
Or gr 3.
They are all vastly different and respond different like real vehicles do.
I run a light wheel and get great ffb. There’s not a bunch of adjustable canned effects to have or not have based on gaming preference, it’s relevant info you need to feel the weight and the tires limit of adhesion via ffb. It’s like walking a tightrope.
Subtle corrections needed when at limit are quite well done imo.
One issue I have with other games is that they have more canned effects, but once you turn them off there’s less of what you need.
No game is a perfect match to real but gt forces correct technique and is currently giving the best feedback about its effect.
It’s best result of matching good technique to what car does in game.
Also, when driving a purpose built racer weighing under 2k lbs with a v8 with 450 or so hp you better have some throttle control. It’s not the most linear response because the motor is not electric.

 

[mthomas_95]

I also get what @kevlar_hybrid is trying to say. Often the best all-around corner strategy is a wide entry, hit apex, steer as much as possible with as little throttle as possible and then floor it when steering is mostly done.

Forgive me if I'm missing something here but isn't that cornering strategy what you see in most top class Formula and GT racing irl?

I reckon if you could secretly put genuine 100% real world physics and mapping into a game most 'sim racers' would immediately cry 'SIMCADE RUBBISH' at it . There also seems to be a weird macho thing in the community where if the FFB isn't ripping your arms to a thousand pieces it's not strong enough, of course running a lighter FFB is better it allows the wheel to actually focus it's usable energy on generating 'feedback' rather than brute force.

My, and I suspect your, problem is expecting the car to behave like a car.

We're a long way away from ever having any game that can 100% simulate real car+track+tyre physics so why people expect it is a bit weird to me. It's well established GT isn't quite as anal about things like tyre flex and suspensions as the PC sims but that's because GT aims to sell millions of copies rather than a few thousand. Vast majority of people just want a good, fun approximation of real racing and GT Sport does that and beyond.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

Also, when driving a purpose built racer weighing under 2k lbs with a v8 with 450 or so hp you better have some throttle control. It’s not the most linear response because the motor is not electric.

Swooning, gushing aside I would just point out that

-throttle mapping is independent of engine. Mechanical and now electronics methods are employed to get exactly the map the driver wants.

-the Beta Release had a linear map, sooooo nothing to do with <2k lbs V8 or 450 BHP

-there is an electric car in the game, it has a non linear throttle map

Forgive me if I'm missing something here but isn't that cornering strategy what you see in most top class Formula and GT racing irl?

You're forgiven, but no. In rally, yes, because apex/exit conditions are an unknown and you need the room on exit to accommodate that.

The rest of your post is just a massive exercise in straw manning. We're not saying we want a perfect sim, nor that we're any better than anyone else at driving, or purer or anything other than the very specific complaint that low speed tyre model and non linear throttle map remove a key aspect to the games enjoyment.

If I was saying that the lack of down change backfire graphic was ruining the game for me I would expect the derision I'm seeing, but it's a fundamental aspect of a driving game, modulating throttle and steering on exit to out perform my competitor - and in this game (not previous titles) it's for some reason removed.

 

[rono_thomas]

Forgive me if I'm missing something here but isn't that cornering strategy what you see in most top class Formula and GT racing irl?

+1. Theres not much difference to the trace you see on F1 race broadcasts.

 

[Lord Protector]

Forgive me if I'm missing something here but isn't that cornering strategy what you see in most top class Formula and GT racing irl?

I reckon if you could secretly put genuine 100% real world physics and mapping into a game most 'sim racers' would immediately cry 'SIMCADE RUBBISH' at it . There also seems to be a weird macho thing in the community where if the FFB isn't ripping your arms to a thousand pieces it's not strong enough, of course running a lighter FFB is better it allows the wheel to actually focus it's usable energy on generating 'feedback' rather than brute force.



We're a long way away from ever having any game that can 100% simulate real car+track+tyre physics so why people expect it is a bit weird to me. It's well established GT isn't quite as anal about things like tyre flex and suspensions as the PC sims but that's because GT aims to sell millions of copies rather than a few thousand. Vast majority of people just want a good, fun approximation of real racing and GT Sport does that and beyond.

If I wrote “the best strategy in GTS is turn while going into corner” you could say it’s the same as in F1, as well... I remember this daily race with Impreza at Tsukuba and TOP10 replays were TOTALLY out of reality. It was just pure coasting until the car was basically going straight and then slamming full throttle. Once you slide the car a bit it’s all crazy slippery and time attack is over immediately. Totally unrealistic, you can watch on YouTube a time attack.

And no, we’re not a long way from that, actually Assetto Corsa Competizione is so close to reality it’s not even funny to play GTS for me (despite my undying love for GT). I realize GT Sport is aimed at a much bigger audience than ACC for example but that doesn’t mean that the core of driving must be crippled for the casuals. Especially when GT6 was fine.

 

[super_gt]

I reckon if you could secretly put genuine 100% real world physics and mapping into a game most 'sim racers' would immediately cry 'SIMCADE RUBBISH' at it .

Why do you think so?

 

[mthomas_95]

that doesn’t mean that the core of driving must be crippled for the casuals. Especially when GT6 was fine.

If it's really that bad (and it was even worse at launch) you'd surely not be playing it to such an extent you'd qualify for the Regional Final . A look at some of the fastest times on GT6 and you are telling me this is more real and natural than GT Sport?

 

[Groundfish]

Swooning, gushing aside I would just point out that

-throttle mapping is independent of engine. Mechanical and now electronics methods are employed to get exactly the map the driver wants.

-the Beta Release had a linear map, sooooo nothing to do with <2k lbs V8 or 450 BHP

-there is an electric car in the game, it has a non linear throttle map

I was thinking of the actual racer I drove on track yesterday.
No efi.
I didnt feel canned effects in the wheel after clipping it on.
No abs either.
I think from looking outside in at the community over pc et all that it’s vicious. People’s games have relatively few participants compared to GT Sport and also the vast majority of sim racers have never even raced a Briggs and Stratton powered kart.
So imo it’s bound to be contentious.

 

[Knukel]

A look at some of the fastest times on GT6 and you are telling me this is more real and natural than GT Sport?

I believe you can still enter corners like that in GTS, whether it's time consuming or not, but exiting corners with such accuracy while maintaining speed is another thing. (in the video there's no sliding in corner exits)
Don't know if that TT was on RH or RS, but those top tunes definitely were 'glitched' and some of the drivers even kept tapping the e-brake. I don't remember driving a stock GT3 like that, but i mainly drove powerful road cars on comfort tyres & had no issues there at corner exits.
(GT6 did allow more sliding... but you can still hit e-brake at corner entry in a GT3 car and maintain control, but little too much gas at... Well, controlled powerslides are hard in GTS)

P.S Not saying that GT6 is more realistic, but it gave better information what the car is doing.

 

[Lord Protector]

If it's really that bad (and it was even worse at launch) you'd surely not be playing it to such an extent you'd qualify for the Regional Final . A look at some of the fastest times on GT6 and you are telling me this is more real and natural than GT Sport?

You clearly don’t know me. During the final season I’ve ONLY played the game on Wednesdays and Saturdays. And I’ll tell you what kept me doing it... my motivation was solely to meet PD, thank them for all the memories and hopefully tell Kaz that GTS needs some serious work in some departments.
To be honest this is the first GT game that I find boring and it’s not solely because of the driving.

About GT6, I’ve never said it was more realistic. It was surely more fun though.

I believe you can still enter corners like that in GTS, whether it's time consuming or not, but exiting corners with such accuracy while maintaining speed is another thing. (in the video there's no sliding in corner exits)
Don't know if that TT was on RH or RS, but those top tunes definitely were 'glitched' and some of the drivers even kept tapping the e-brake. I don't remember driving a stock GT3 like that, but i mainly drove powerful road cars on comfort tyres & had no issues there at corner exits.
(GT6 did allow more sliding... but you can still hit e-brake at corner entry in a GT3 car and maintain control, but little too much gas at... Well, controlled powerslides are hard in GTS)

P.S Not saying that GT6 is more realistic, but it gave better information what the car is doing.

Oh the e-brake I know what you’re saying when I first launched GTS closed beta I was constantly hitting the e-brake for better turn in but that it doesn’t work probably a good thing though?

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

+1. Theres not much difference to the trace you see on F1 race broadcasts.

This is really not contentious, simply watch an onboard replay of Fuji in a Super Gt car then watch Lightnings video linked above. Exit of every corner, IRL, is the progressive, skilled application of the throttle. If you want a single corner demo, try the first gear chicane out the back. Do you see any real driver coasting in to the right hander entry, straightening up the wheel, slamming on full throttle for a tenth of a second like we have to? No. They feather through the right and the little straight before the left trying to get power down all the way through to raise their minimum possible apex speed.

I was thinking of the actual racer I drove on track yesterday.
No efi.
I didnt feel canned effects in the wheel after clipping it on.
No abs either.
I think from looking outside in at the community over pc et all that it’s vicious. People’s games have relatively few participants compared to GT Sport and also the vast majority of sim racers have never even raced a Briggs and Stratton powered kart.
So imo it’s bound to be contentious.

I'm glad you had a good time out in your racing car yesterday. Did you get the wrong thread maybe?
But for what it's worth I don't think that user base for smaller titles with better physics means GTS can't make throttle application better and benefit. That seems a peculiar position to take. Similarly, I don't see that GTS having a well deserved HUGE user base is a good enough reason to "never change anything ever because it is perfect as it is!" - otherwise the next GT game would not be possible. You see?

 

[Lord Protector]

But for what it's worth I don't think that user base for smaller titles with better physics means GTS can't make throttle application better and benefit. That seems a peculiar position to take. Similarly, I don't see that GTS having a well deserved HUGE user base is a good enough reason to "never change anything ever because it is perfect as it is!" - otherwise the next GT game would not be possible. You see?

It seems truly intriguing that GT Sport was introduced as an "accessible simulator", accessible to youngs and elders, yet, cars are much more difficult to drive, than they were in GT6

 

[rono_thomas]

This is really not contentious

It simply is not, or is that how we class a different opinion now.

simply watch an onboard replay of Fuji in a Super Gt

Can you provide a link with a throttle trace?

My quick search has turned up this one, and in fairness like I’ve alrady said there is not a lot of difference.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

It simply is not, or is that how we class a different opinion now.



Can you provide a link with a throttle trace?

My quick search has turned up this one, and in fairness like I’ve alrady said there is not a lot of difference.

I see a huge difference in drive and throttle out of all corners. I suspect you won’t, however, so I’ll leave it there.

 

[rono_thomas]

I see a huge difference in drive and throttle out of all corners. I suspect you won’t, however, so I’ll leave it there.

Throttle trace?

 

[Lord Protector]

Throttle trace?

You can hear the difference clearly...

edit: well maybe you cannot but we can

 

[rono_thomas]

You can hear the difference clearly...

edit: well maybe you cannot but we can

Ahh ears. Now your point is even more credible.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

You can hear the difference clearly...

edit: well maybe you cannot but we can

As I said, “ I suspect you won’t, however, so I’ll leave it there.”

I’m coming from a 20 year career of designing these things. Not that that should be relevant as it’s pretty obvious. But some will never see it, and that’s fine. Everyone comes at it with their own bias, background and perspective.

 

[Knukel]

Is this done with the "proper" throttle mapping? From December 2017:

I did play the beta, but bought the game late january... I noticed the lack of control right away.

 

[zzz_pt]

It's pretty obvious the difference out of slow corners. In Lightning's video it's basically an on/off throttle input (smashing the throttle when the car is almost straight), in the real onboard camera the throttle input is progressive and the car doesn't spin. Try to do that in game... Good luck. Even if the TCS is on, it's not realistic.

Basically, in order to be fast in GT out of slower corners (where you gain the most on a flying lap) you need to do something counter intuitive to what you would do in real life.

That's why it's frustrating to me the way the cars handle out of slow corners in GTS. But I don't expect everyone to notice it especially if they don't have much experience driving fast in real life or haven't tried other sims.

GTS is great imo but that doesn't mean it's perfect. Far from it. My biggest complain since day one are the FFB and slow corner behaviour/physics/grip in particular. Several updates were made but it's still basically the same.

 

[Lord Protector]

Oh, he's an alien alright! But even then, check out his quickest lap during this stream at Fuji in Gr 2 (it starts in the right place)



I see much better throttle control which is almost not possible with my T300 pedals (I'd be interested to know which pedals he uses) but I also see basically only two positions above 50% (which is my contention here). 75% and 100%. This is still, in my opinion, demonstrative of the abysmal non linear throttle map denying the driver of throttle finesse above 50%. He still exhibits the slam it on behaviour that the game rewards. He could be even better than this with more ability to hold finer increments in the >50% range. This is a skill ceiling that's been imposed on him and us that I would like to see removed.

You also gotta love how surprised he is that he didn't get a penalty for that That is another problem... TOP10 laps are usually a combo of: alien driving + a LOT of tries because of the penalty system as you never know if "this" is okay and "that" isn't + a bit of luck... For me, I can be really fast but I fail to keep trying cut the corners without penalties to get a really fast lap, therefore I never race sport mode because if I did, with my current DR I would be constantly starting last

 

[ShiftingGears]

This game isn’t realistic enough for a sim approach and not fun enough for an arcade approach. They’re stuck in the middle and gamers suffer because of it

I like the middle-of-the-road physics model, I just don't like the lack of content.