How Realistic is the Gran Turismo Series ?

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JAGUAR
I see some people, despite everything that has been said, are still comparing GTR with GT3.

Even comparing GTR to GT4P is a little misleading as many changes have been made to the GT4 code , including locking brakes etc

GT1/2/3 ARE relatively easy games, and I belive GT4 will still be classed as easy (despite being in a different league to previous GT games) by the sim crowd. However, IMO, this is because you are eased into GT4 with very low powered 'shopping trolly' cars. This is unlike PC sims were you are thrown into the deapend.

You could have a very realistic representation of a small engined hachback, and it would still be very easy to drive, by the very nature of the car. Afterall you don't see average drivers crashing their road cars every 10 minutes do you.

There's nothing wrong with comparing GTR to GT4p, as long as we're not comparing it to the final version of GT4 cause nobody played that.

Oh and I already said that the 'shopping trolly cars' are realistic, but the race cars (mclaren, jgtc etc.) just aren't realistic in GT4p.
 
Many of you are bashing on PD that they havnt produced an ultra realistic physics game, but i dont know if anyone remembers a year or two ago, as part of the development of gt4, PD produced a lupo car sim for training the drivers, as i recall Kazunori said this "demo" wont be released to the public since its ultra realistic and the mass public would not enjoy it. so there, PD is perfectly capable of producing a hardcore sim as GTR, however from a buisness stand point they're in much better position to make it more of an entertainment product than a sim and then sell lots more games cuz itl be enjoyable to more ppl than a handfull of super realstic sim enthusiasts.
 
SkillRacer
Many of you are bashing on PD that they havnt produced an ultra realistic physics game, but i dont know if anyone remembers a year or two ago, as part of the development of gt4, PD produced a lupo car sim for training the drivers, as i recall Kazunori said this "demo" wont be released to the public since its ultra realistic and the mass public would not enjoy it. so there, PD is perfectly capable of producing a hardcore sim as GTR, however from a buisness stand point they're in much better position to make it more of an entertainment product than a sim and then sell lots more games cuz itl be enjoyable to more ppl than a handfull of super realstic sim enthusiasts.

Many of you are bashing on PD? I'm certainly not bashing PD. :)
Oh and you don't get it, WTF IS WRONG WITH INCLUDING A EXTRA TRUE SIMULATION OPTION? (especially when they've already created true simulation physics as you say)
 
"The Real Driving Simulator"

Quite a bold statement, now this has been echoed in posts throughout these very forums, and that is GT4 is the most realitic driving "simulator" to grace a console, I have no doubt this has brain washed alot of people when it come's down to it the current Gran Turismo series is a watered down simulation
(Not including GT4 because no one has played it)....

The simple fact of the matter is PD has brain washed you into thinking GT is as realistic as it get's so they include a ton of junk (photo mode drives this point home)... PD clearly know there "market" visiuals over physics, I have no doubt GT will eventually evolve into "The Real Driving Simulator"

The "The Real Driving Simulator" to me is uncompromising any mistake is punished and punished properly, I don't want some camera shake and blurry vision because I hit a wall, I want to see my car take real damage I want to see the black flag if it's a bad crash..... I want a simulator.... but I also want GT, and this is where the problem occurs..

There should be a UBER racing sim mode for GT it's what the series is crying out for those visuals and GTR's physics and sounds, i'd never leave the god damn house it would be the greatest game ever concived by man, obviously it's not somthing that would happen over night, but it's somthing that should and WILL happen....

Hopefully
 
Or, just MAYBE, they could do the sensible thing and make it what the game really is. ARCADE mode and SIMULATION mode. Because so far in all the previous GT games there is no difference in handeling between the two. That way it IS two different modes. SIM for hardcore, and Arcade for softcore. Not talking about porn either :lol: Just casual gamers. That way there we can all get our share of the crop. Of course they would have to expand the arcade mode a little bit, but it still provides a great experience.
 
Imagine the large amount of extra work on the physics engine for both sim and arcade mode this would warrant. With different physics for each mode you could expect the time it would take to make the to be pushed back by many months.
 
It already has been. They have had more than plenty of time to do it. I'm sick of waiting.
 
icemanshooter23
Imagine the large amount of extra work on the physics engine for both sim and arcade mode this would warrant. With different physics for each mode you could expect the time it would take to make the to be pushed back by many months.

PD has already made a simulation physics engine http://www.totalvideogames.com/pages/articles/index.php?article_id=4053&library_format_id=1

And they don't have to make different physic engines for each mode, they could just use one physics engine and apply driving aids and all for the arcade mode.
 
GTR was a complete success

Young kid’s, even under 10 years old, were a unexpected group that praised the game, words like "this is challenging", and "most other games are too easy" actually came as a surprise to us. We were under the impression that the Simulation mode would be too tough for the youngsters to handle, but fear not - the reality was actually the opposite. Regardless, an arcade feature is also included in the game, with nice drifting to rock ´n roll music.

FULL ARTICLE

I find this highly interesting children under ten find other games to easy and the kids were playing GTR sim mode.....
 
GT4P is a huge improvement on GT3. If GT4 is even 15% more realistic than GT4P, it will be pretty damn good.

Lets also make a distinction between GT 'fans' who cannot see the merits of other games/sims, and the majority of harcore players who are just as excited about games such as GTR, RB Rally etc., as they are GT4.
 
It's getting pretty hard for me not to get angry at some people that posted in this thread.

First, for all of the people who still mentioned the lack of real damage physics.... Just shut up... You have heard why they won't be in the game. Don't start with; "but this game has it", well all those games have MUCH less cars and don't represent the level of realism as GT4. You try getting 80 manufacturers to allow damage in a game that has been classified as a real driving simulator, also with the side note that they will be compared to the other cars and the people playing gt4 will probably don't buy their car if it breaks more easily (which has an effect on the "In Real Life" sales aswell, since TVR has been in the game they have more than tripled their profits). And don't forget, with real damage physics every car has to be crashed several times to be able to record and implement the same level of realism that goes in the driving aspect.

For the people that are comparing GTR to GT3/GT4;P/GT4. GTR is not a better simulator just because it's more difficult. The cars in GTR are race cars. Apply downforce and such to the car and they shouldn't spin exiting a turn. For one of you who said you should be able to put simulation/road tyres on the race cars in GT.... Don't be stupid, race cars don't drive on road tyres, they drive on slicks (or intermediates and such). The level of grip you're getting is as real as it probably is going to get. GT4 will offer pretty much as real as it is going to get according to the number of improvements. Some of you are suggesting the driving aids in GT make it more arcade. You're wrong. In real life those driving aids do exist and can offer the same level of assist. (finally, for the person who said he got 1 second of the pole time in GTR and suggested that was good. Don't be a knob, you as an utter newb shouldn't even get near the pole time. Real racing car drivers that had years of training have difficulty driving within 1 second of the pole time)

The people who said GT should have an uber simulation mode... Don't be stupid. They're not going to implement something that almost no-one is going to use. Developing costs money. And it's not the physics engine that "only" would have to be upgraded with uber simulation. It's every car. With uber simulation comes all the little quirks the cars have. Some cars wouldn't even be able to drive 10k miles (skyline comes to mind, if not maintananced within the time that costs you to drive 10k miles the turbo will probably fail, which goes in the direction of damage, and we know we're not getting that, unless they are going to add engine wear, but if implemented will only be for the parts they offer to edit in the game).

A special word for Triple Play with the utter BS comment;
"It already has been. They have had more than plenty of time to do it. I'm sick of waiting"
You start making GT4 from scratch and we'll see how much time it takes you... If you don't know what comes with making a game, don't make such a stupid remark.

For the guy who made the brilliant comment that ps2 owners should be jealous; BS. First off you know nothing about how GT4 is and you should know that the Xbox version of GTR probably won't get near GTR on the PC. All the consoles have run out of juice, and the PC is creeping forward untill the next generation consoles arrives. Only natural, but I wouldn't like to spend thousands of euros everytime to be able to play a new game. I have a good pc, got it 6 months ago, and already it's "out of date."

Now for the FINAL statement; GT4 isn't out yet. GTR is far from coming out. You know nothing about both games when it comes to it really, so don't start speculating and throwing subjective statements at each other. We'll have to see. GTR could take a long time, and when it comes out we probably already have news about GT5. And don't forget GT4 is in development for quite a few years now, while GTR is more "fresh". But even so, Kazunori is trying his best to improve GT4 even more untill release. You guys should be happy, who knows what tricks he has up his sleeve.
 
Well, Dev_Zero thanks for being the first person in ages that hasn't quoted me for talking rubbish :)

I agree with you that the people who want the uber simulator are still in the minority..no offence :) Heck even we charge £850 per man/day development, Lord knows what it costs at PD! So extra features like that have very little return in terms of sales.

I think when Pak metioned changing tyres on the JGTC he means they should have some realism. Even in GT3 when you put the softest/stickiest tyres on a car they would only be good for half a lap. In Prologue the tyres on race cars are ridiculously sticky and last for ever. That will surely change in GT4 universe mode (Gran Turismo mode in GT3)
 
Dev_Zero
It's getting pretty hard for me not to get angry at some people that posted in this thread.

For the people that are comparing GTR to GT3/GT4;P/GT4. GTR is not a better simulator just because it's more difficult. The cars in GTR are race cars. Apply downforce and such to the car and they shouldn't spin exiting a turn. For one of you who said you should be able to put simulation/road tyres on the race cars in GT.... Don't be stupid, race cars don't drive on road tyres, they drive on slicks (or intermediates and such). The level of grip you're getting is as real as it probably is going to get. GT4 will offer pretty much as real as it is going to get according to the number of improvements. Some of you are suggesting the driving aids in GT make it more arcade. You're wrong. In real life those driving aids do exist and can offer the same level of assist. (finally, for the person who said he got 1 second of the pole time in GTR and suggested that was good. Don't be a knob, you as an utter newb shouldn't even get near the pole time. Real racing car drivers that had years of training have difficulty driving within 1 second of the pole time)

You shouldn't talk crap, downforce doesn't prevent a racecar from spinning out when exiting a hairpin you moron. In GTR you can go flat out in fast corners because of the downforce but a racecar has enough power to easily spin out in alot of slow corners.

I said that the racecars in GT4p would be more realistic if you could put road tyres on them BECAUSE THE FORCED RACETYRES HAVE AN UNREALISTIC AMOUNT OF GRIP, an arcade amount of grip. Especially when accelerating in a hairpin or from a standstill.

Yes driving aids make the racecars drive unrealistic cause driving aids are prohibited in JGTC.

He was getting within 1 second of the pole time because this was a alpha press demo just to show some of it's realism and force feedback. In the final version he won't be able to get such a time.

Dev_Zero
The people who said GT should have an uber simulation mode... Don't be stupid. They're not going to implement something that almost no-one is going to use. Developing costs money. And it's not the physics engine that "only" would have to be upgraded with uber simulation. It's every car. With uber simulation comes all the little quirks the cars have. Some cars wouldn't even be able to drive 10k miles (skyline comes to mind, if not maintananced within the time that costs you to drive 10k miles the turbo will probably fail, which goes in the direction of damage, and we know we're not getting that, unless they are going to add engine wear, but if implemented will only be for the parts they offer to edit in the game).

We were talking about an uber physics simulation mode actually because we know it can't be that big on the ps2.
Just because you wouldn't use it doesn't mean many other people wouldn't use it.
I'm sure that a lot of people from racesimcentral/bhmotorsports and gpl/lfs players would buy a ps2 with GT4 if it had such a mode.
BTW, PD HAS ALREADY DEVELOPED SUCH A PHYSICS ENGINE.

Dev_Zero
Now for the FINAL statement; GT4 isn't out yet. GTR is far from coming out. You know nothing about both games when it comes to it really, so don't start speculating and throwing subjective statements at each other. We'll have to see. GTR could take a long time, and when it comes out we probably already have news about GT5. And don't forget GT4 is in development for quite a few years now, while GTR is more "fresh". But even so, Kazunori is trying his best to improve GT4 even more untill release. You guys should be happy, who knows what tricks he has up his sleeve.

We're not comparing GTR to GT4. We're comparing GTR press demo to GT4p.
btw GTR will be released soon (3rd quarter 2004)
 
Why are we cutting the GTR demo so much slack, with hugely unrealistic lap times, and some, apparently, dodgy turn-in trates, yet GT4P gets slagged off, despite being a 'demo' that is well over a year old, and only has a very limited 'arcade' driving section with no set-up options etc.

Lets just wait!

P.S. GT4P only has one set of race tires, compared with 8 or so for the final game.

IMO, the final versions of both games will be complementary and nothing will come close to them, as a complete package.
 
Why are we cutting the GTR demo so much slack, with hugely unrealistic lap times, and some, apparently, dodgy turn-in trates

I may be no real life Racer but the ammount of lap's i've pulled in GTR is in the triple figures.... let's say I had to learn EVERY corner which is a challange now 1 second of pole is not bad but i'm driving under different circumstances I don't risk my life because I went to hard into a corner which is what I am doing to achieve these laptimes i'm taking EVERY and ALL risks and my absolute best 2:15:358 was the best qualifying time in QUALIFYING 1

RESULTS HERE


I'd be 3rd and that was my absolute best which i've never duplicated again

:)

And after all it's a Alpha demo I imagine my driving skills will plummet come retail !
 
Lister Storm and I used a setup I downloaded from Race sim central, The Lister Storm is way crazy to drive :)
 
i prefer the morgan because the V8 ROCKS!!!. to go fast you really need a force feedback wheel i got a normal one on my computer and its hard because you cant feel anything.
 
First of all Pak, I don't like to be called a moron, MORON. You were stupid enough to quote me, so read the ****ing text. I was talking about A turn, not a hairpin turn. and even there downforce applies. The GTR demo exaggerates every aspect of the cars. Fact is FIA-GT cars do have launch and traction control and big ass tyres. They do not easily spin out in corners.
If you don't like driving assists in a JGTC car, turn them off. Don't act like a JGTC expert, because years of development has gone into those cars and they do have a huge amount of grip on racing tyres. And stupid enough you make the remark "In the final version he won't be able to get such a time". LIKE YOU KNOW THAT. The final version isn't out, hasn't been played, so stfu. And if it becomes more realistic, great, a FIA-GT game that's realistic. That should keep us playing for...five minutes? But taste is taste... But don't even try to compair GTR (demo) to GT4(P). All the money used for the development for GTR goes in the direction of FIA-GT cars. They don't offer such a wide selection as GT does. It's understandable the cars will be more realistic, but it's only that series.
The physics engine in GT is just fantastic. It IS realistic. What you are looking for is an unrealistic difficulty. DIFFICULTY DOES NOT MEAN REALISM. If you want realism in GT, only use things that are available as standard on the real cars. There are much more factors included in real life that aren't in GT. Those don't have to be included in the physics engine, it's the cars. But to implement those, in a realistic way would take weeks for just one car. That's the thing with GTR, it doesn't offer so much, so they can spend more time on the cars. And even then, we're not sure IF it offers realism. And it will probably will be delayed.
 
Dev zero, you sit in a real 600 bhp car, and floor it in first gear. OWAHHH HOLY CRAP, you span out. Ok, try that in Gt4p....nothing, it just goes. The feeling of the cars, the speed, the noise, the grip, the way the cars turned, just stuck me as feeling far more realistic in GTR. TBH as I said before, I quite like the handling in GT, as it's much more accesable, and I wouldn't want it to play like GTR, as in GTR, make one mistake and CRASH. It's nice that in Gt you can make mistakes and still do ok.
 
I have to agree with you code_kev. GT is more accessible. I think if they included every aspect of every car it wouldn't be fun. The manufacturers probably wouldn't even allow it. The more aspects they include, the more the cars you can actually compare. Some cars might look really bad. But to include the level of realism that some people want here, you also have to include damage.
 
Dev_Zero
First of all Pak, I don't like to be called a moron, MORON. You were stupid enough to quote me, so read the ****ing text. I was talking about A turn, not a hairpin turn. and even there downforce applies.
Ok, I won't call you a moron but you seriously should stop talking crap.
In GTR you can take lots of turns at full speed including the eau rouge, just like real life. Only when you go through a slow corner and smash the gas you lose control, you're rear wing and your fat tyres won't help you.

Dev_Zero
The GTR demo exaggerates every aspect of the cars. Fact is FIA-GT cars do have launch and traction control and big ass tyres. They do not easily spin out in corners.
The GTR demo does not exaggerate every aspect of the cars.
Where did you get that traction control fact from? They DO easily spin out in slow corners when driven by some rookies.

Dev_Zero
If you don't like driving assists in a JGTC car, turn them off. Don't act like a JGTC expert, because years of development has gone into those cars and they do have a huge amount of grip on racing tyres.
I turn them off but you can't change tyres, you're forced with arcade tyres.
And with the driving aids turned off it's still incredibly unrealistic, such a car is not that easy to control by a rookie. I can go on the straight 200+ kmph, pull the handbrake a few times while swinging, brake hard for a corner that smash the gas with full lock and go into a nice drift and all. THAT'S NOT REALISTIC.
With years of JGTC development you can't beat the laws of physics.

Dev_Zero
And stupid enough you make the remark "In the final version he won't be able to get such a time". LIKE YOU KNOW THAT. The final version isn't out, hasn't been played, so stfu.
YES I KNOW THAT.
YOU are the one who should stfu. In the final version you won't be able to get such laptimes, it's been said by a simbin developer you #$^t4. The demo is a alpha build, in recent builds they already get slower times.

Dev_Zero
And if it becomes more realistic, great, a FIA-GT game that's realistic. That should keep us playing for...five minutes? But taste is taste... But don't even try to compair GTR (demo) to GT4(P). All the money used for the development for GTR goes in the direction of FIA-GT cars. They don't offer such a wide selection as GT does. It's understandable the cars will be more realistic, but it's only that series.
I said in another thread that's it's understandable that GTR simulates the FIA GT better because it's simulating 1 league.
But that's no reason for having problems with the fact that I'm saying that GTR simulates 600BHP powered racecars better. :| It's not like I'm attacking GT4p, I'm only saying the racecars don't act like they should as opposed to GTR.

Dev_Zero
The physics engine in GT is just fantastic. It IS realistic. What you are looking for is an unrealistic difficulty. DIFFICULTY DOES NOT MEAN REALISM. If you want realism in GT, only use things that are available as standard on the real cars. There are much more factors included in real life that aren't in GT. Those don't have to be included in the physics engine, it's the cars. But to implement those, in a realistic way would take weeks for just one car. That's the thing with GTR, it doesn't offer so much, so they can spend more time on the cars. And even then, we're not sure IF it offers realism. And it will probably will be delayed.
I'm looking for a REALISTIC difficulty, I don't want to be able to swing my JGTC car around with the handbrake pulled and smashing the throttle in a hairpin without losing control. Those things shouldn't be too hard to implement, especially when you consider that PD has already made a realistic simulation (but don't release it cause it's to difficult for the mass)
 
You prove a good opponent Pak... We each have our points/opinions. But I have to say the realistic simulation PD has made only contains a few cars (or one). It would simply take too long to apply that to every car.
 
Not sure about FIA GTS cars, but ACO 550's, C5-R's, S7R's definately do have traction control. The ACO allowed it a few years back for LMP1/2 and GTS cars as it is virtually impossible to regulate.

Regarding the tires in GT4P. Well there is only one set of race tires available and these are very sticky qualifying tires. In the final game you will have 8+ 'race' tire choices.

I agree the GT race cars could be a little more realistic in GT4P, but as I've said before, it is a 'demo' that is well over a year old.

Having said that, there is a distinct difference in handling between the JGTC cars and the F1 GTR. As in real life JGTC cars have more grip, which along with much less power, allows them to put the power down much better.

I also have yet to drift a JGTC car in GT4P. In my experience if you do not feather the throttle and ensure you are lined up straight out of the corner, before putting the full power down, you will simply spin out. Even on the stickiest race tires.

Finally, you have to use the DFP wheel for the most realistic handling. If you so much as sverve slightly at top speed, with the DFP, you will go careering of the road, unlike with a pad in GT3.
 
Dev_Zero
You prove a good opponent Pak... We each have our points/opinions. But I have to say the realistic simulation PD has made only contains a few cars (or one). It would simply take too long to apply that to every car.

True 👍
But I think at the time GT5 will be released they would have the capabilaty to create a physics engine which simulates much more.
What they would have to do then is add the specifications of the cars including all springs, dampers, clutch etc. The physics engine will calculate all those things and you get a Daihatsu Cuore which won't spin out if you keep ramming the gas and a 600bhp monster that would lose control at the slightest little mistake you make.

:cheers:

ps. I still think it won't require that much work to fix the "swinging with handbrake" thing. :p
 
I noted something here...
Everyone has a different opinion on just about everything. And like many threads, here the opinions are about as different as thermonuclear fusion and chicken liver pate. I guess it's just down to personal prefrence.

What I will say though is that the Gran turismo series has always offered the best balance between realism, playabilaty, and fun. And surely, being the benchmark for racing/driving games and the garuntee that it always has, and always will be compared to other racing/driving games must mean something.
 
A. Noobs to racing video game cars cannot jump into GT and start clicking off fast lap times.

B. I've played alot of these 'uber sim' racers. What's the enjoyment of a game that puts you on the edge every lap? How many laps can you guys complete without spinning out or touching the grass in these 'uber sims'? Reminds me of a roadcourse race I had online in Nascar 2003 by papyrus for the pc. I started 38th and finished 8th in a 11 lap race. How? I managed not to spin out, as some 20 other guys did. Where's the fun?

C. Sure, it is easier to drive GT cars. Is it easy to drive them fast? No
 
Earth
A. Noobs to racing video game cars cannot jump into GT and start clicking off fast lap times.

B. I've played alot of these 'uber sim' racers. What's the enjoyment of a game that puts you on the edge every lap? How many laps can you guys complete without spinning out or touching the grass in these 'uber sims'? Reminds me of a roadcourse race I had online in Nascar 2003 by papyrus for the pc. I started 38th and finished 8th in a 11 lap race. How? I managed not to spin out, as some 20 other guys did. Where's the fun?

C. Sure, it is easier to drive GT cars. Is it easy to drive them fast? No

We want realism, not just difficulty.
Noobs to racing video game cars can't jump into any racing game and start clicking off competitive lap times. GT is not the only game where it's not easy to drive them fast. What we want is REALISM.

And you should stfu about fun and all, cause that's your opinion. I find it more rewarding to drive a car on the edge and get good lap times. You really have to be easy on the trottle and all. For us simracers GT arcade physics are boring because you don't have to be careful.
 
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