How "Special" are PRO race Drivers?

[ExigeEvan]

I think this is the thread you are looking for. Hamilton had talent yes, but he wouldn't have got as far without his sponsorship (May have still ended up in F1 mind, depending on what other opportunities were offered to him). Without the sponsorship he wouldn't have been in a frontrunning team throughout the various Formulas he raced in. I'm saying you need both the opportunities and the talent. You can't get anywhere unless you have both.

You make it sound like sponsorship money was just handed to him, without any consideration for his results.

He wasn't from a wealthy family, he wasn't from a racing family, everything that he received was because of his own ability. Sure, he got lucky with Mclaren, but they only chose the best young drivers they could find. And lets not forget he'd already won his second British karting championship before he signed...

 

[Rich S]

Assorted laptimes in a Suzuki Liana round Dunsfold park.

1:46.7 – Ellen MacArthur
1:46.9 – Jimmy Carr
1:47.1 – Simon Cowell
1:47.3 – Ronnie O'Sullivan
1:47.8 – Ian Wright
1:47.9 – Chris Evans
1:47.9 – Rory Bremner
1:48.0 – Justin Hawkins
1:48.0 – Jodie Kidd
1:48.0 – Paul McKenna
1:48.0 – Patrick Kielty
1:48.3 – Jay Kay
1:50.0 – Jeremy Clarkson

Sebastian Vettel did it in 1:44.0. That's 2.4 seconds quicker than a "normal" person over 1.75 miles.

Webber did a 1:47.9 even though the track for his run was very wet, and they say a very wet time is 4 seconds a lap slower than what he could do in the dry. 4 sconds off would be a 1:43.9 which fits in with Vettel's lap.

I actually think thats a reasonable measure of "talent" because everyone's used to driving their road cars. Even laymen can get within a few secs which shows driving a race car at competitive speeds is not a special "gift" but rather a PRIVILEGE earned by being born well off......and trying very hard.

If some of the mid-pack celebrities could maintain a consistent pace close to that they might actually have a chance of beating Vettel in a race using that car >> if Vettel had a slide or a slight mishap.

Motorsports are "open" anybody can perform at a reasonable level in a car. Not just anybody can dunk a basketball into the net.

 

[hampus_dh]

Thank you.

He makes it sound like a random dude can walk into a big company and ask for sponsorship amd they'll just say "sure little boy, soon you will be in F1"

 

[ExigeEvan]

I actually think thats a reasonable measure of "talent" because everyone's used to driving their road cars. Even laymen can get within a few secs which shows driving a race car at competitive speeds is not a special "gift" but rather a PRIVILEGE earned by being born well off......and trying very hard.

If some of the mid-pack celebrities could maintain a consistent pace close to that they might actually have a chance of beating Vettel in a race using that car >> if Vettel had a slide or a slight mishap.

Do you realise how great a difference 2.4 seconds is over 1.75 miles in just one lap!?

It's like saying a 2:30:00 marathon isn't far off pro!

 

[Rich S]

Thank you.

He makes it sound like a random dude can walk into a big company and ask for sponsorship amd they'll just say "sure little boy, soon you will be in F1"

Well I have to say....thats basically what Lewis Hamilton did.

Lewis' Dad worked like a slave to pay for Lewis' racing. If his parents had not he would be nowhere in racing.

Its about "Luck" life has zilch to do with "talent." But Hampus, you'll just keep arguing with me on everything; every aspect of life.

Do you realise how great a difference 2.4 seconds is over 1.75 miles in just one lap!?

It's like saying a 2:30:00 marathon isn't far off pro!

A 2:30 is a great pace. The average person takes 4h 34m............

What I'm saying is that a layman can become good at car racing. A layman cannot learn to run a 4:40 mile, or dunk a basketball.

 

[nitrorocks]

I'm a young kart driver trying to make it to sports cars. It's tough at times because you don't have the right funding as the wealthy kids do. The wealthy kids usually don't have talent, they just have the equipment unfortunately. That's why ride buying is terrible! It's not fair. But I don't want to whine about it. Jus wish it was like the old days when you had to get discovered for a ride.....

 

[Pupik]

...Just wish it was like the old days when you had to get discovered for a ride.....

Well, in the old days, you required a lot of money to get into the sport, just the same. Heck, in the really early days, you had to either be super-rich or royalty to afford racing a car. Reading a lot of drivers' biographies, there's sometimes a lot of luck that arises with just the right opportunity to make things happen.

For all we know, there could be some super-talented driver from Tanzania who could blow the doors off anyone, but if there's no opportunity that driver, we'd never know about him.

 

[hampus_dh]

Well I have to say....thats basically what Lewis Hamilton did.

Lewis' Dad worked like a slave to pay for Lewis' racing. If his parents had not he would be nowhere in racing.

Its about "Luck" life has zilch to do with "talent."

Hamilton would have not gotten ANYWHERE without talent.

You can't get sponsors if you are not a quick driver, you just can't because it's a waste of money for the company.

Yea i argue about alot just as you dream about alot.

When you said "i can be 0,5 seconds from Webber with 30 laps of practice"
really says alot about you and how much (or little) you know.

The claims you have made today are nothing but dreams or taken out of the blue.

When one argument fails you move on to the next like saying Well other sports are more dangerous as if that had anything to do with it in the first place.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Well I have to say....thats basically what Lewis Hamilton did.

Lewis' Dad worked like a slave to pay for Lewis' racing. If his parents had not he would be nowhere in racing.

Its about "Luck" life has zilch to do with "talent." But Hampus, you'll just keep arguing with me on everything; every aspect of life.

What? No-one get anywhere in motor sport without their parents. How is a 6-10 year old going to pay for karting? Lewis' dad wasn't making big money either, he worked 2 low paid jobs just to get him on the track.

A 2:30 is a great pace. The average person takes 4h 34m............

What I'm saying is that a layman can become good at car racing. A layman cannot learn to run a 4:40 mile, or dunk a basketball.

2:30 is a great pace, but it's not a pro men's time. And the average time for a marathon is crap, as most people simply run/jog/walk just "to finish".

But as regards to a layman running a 4:40 mile, that's not difficult at all. Christ, I just cycled across Australia and I wouldn't even call myself a cyclist.

 

[Rich S]

What? No-one get anywhere in motor sport without their parents. How is a 6-10 year old going to pay for karting?

They dont.

I'm a young kart driver trying to make it to sports cars. It's tough at times because you don't have the right funding as the wealthy kids do. The wealthy kids usually don't have talent, they just have the equipment unfortunately. That's why ride buying is terrible! It's not fair. But I don't want to whine about it. Jus wish it was like the old days when you had to get discovered for a ride.....

Yeah.....I think thats about right.

Lewis hamilton by the way is fast, he might be in 99th percentile of driving ability, he might not. Regardless there's millions capable of doing what he's done in the car.

He has his dad to blame for his success....and to some degree genetics. But mostly his dad's hard earned money. (I hope dad gets an allowance from Lewis, with all the tax evasion he does to boot.)

 

[hampus_dh]

Facepalm.

 

[McLaren]

They dont.
Yeah.....I think thats about right.

Lewis hamilton by the way is fast, he might be in 99th percentile of driving ability, he might not. Regardless there's millions capable of doing what he's done in the car.

He has his dad to blame for his success....and to some degree genetics. But mostly his dad's hard earned money. (I hope dad gets an allowance from Lewis, with all the tax evasion he does to boot.)

Not. Even. Close.

 

[Rich S]

I see family dynasties like no other in Nascar & IRL.

What are the chances Mario Andretti's grandson is good enough to win the Indy 500.....slim but he'll likely do it.

Michael Jordan's grand kids.....growing up to become top 10 NBA players....nope. not. even.

Not. Even. Close.

I see no proof or argument to back up your 3 word response.

 

[TheBook]

Regarding your previous claim, Rich S, that "you could throw me in that RB7 and I'd bet $20 bucks I'm within 0.5 of Webber's fastest time within 30 laps of practice", which track was that on again? I don't recall you ever specifying.

 

[Scaff]

Most repliers seemed to concentrate on average person vs. F1 driver, but I thought the OP was trying to compare racing drivers more to other pro athletes. I agree with ExigeEvan and fps_christian. I'm a lazy fat ass, but without a doubt I can put olympic level athletes above top tier racing drivers. I think this shouldn't even be a controversial subject, because motorsport is called motorsport for a reason. And the popularity (I mean amount of people who take part) can not be even compared to major and so to say traditional sports.

Yep because being a racing driver at the top tier doesn't involve comparable levels of fitness to traditional sports at all....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6980337.stm

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/04/21/how-fit-is-an-f1-driver/

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/5298.html

...and after all its not as if they take it as seriously as traditional sports at all...


http://www.porsche.com/silverstone/en/human-performance-center/

...seriously now your post is so far off the mark its ridiculous.

It would seem that experts in the field of fitness state (and the above backs this up quite clearly) that an average F1 race will require the same level of peak fitness as running a marathon, involve almost continues mental awareness and concentration, cause the loss of near 3kgs of body weight due to dehydration and put up to 6g in stress on the neck alone repeatedly. How do you suppose a person does that repeatedly without a level of fitness that is on par with the top tier's of other sports?

I see no proof or argument to back up your 3 word response.

And I see none to back up yours either?

You made the initial claim, its your job to back it up, not our to disprove it.

Scaff

 

[nitrorocks]

Hamilton would have not gotten ANYWHERE without talent.

You can't get sponsors if you are not a quick driver, you just can't because it's a waste of money for the company.

Yea i argue about alot just as you dream about alot.

When you said "i can be 0,5 seconds from Webber with 30 laps of practice"
really says alot about you and how much (or little) you know.

The claims you have made today are nothing but dreams or taken out of the blue.

When one argument fails you move on to the next like saying Well other sports are more dangerous as if that had anything to do with it in the first place.

I talked to an old wise man that used to drive IMSA. He gave me a lot of advice. He said sponsors don't care anymore if your fast or not. They just want you to sell their product. Look a Danica Patrick. Horrible driver, yet has a great sponsor. That makes me mad that someone that has never won a kart race in the Earl stages of her career gets a full sponsor while genocide good drivers that can't get a ride are out ok the sidelines

 

[Mac K]

I talked to an old wise man that used to drive IMSA. He gave me a lot of advice. He said sponsors don't care anymore if your fast or not. They just want you to sell their product. Look a Danica Patrick. Horrible driver, yet has a great sponsor. That makes me mad that someone that has never won a kart race in the Earl stages of her career gets a full sponsor while genocide good drivers that can't get a ride are out ok the sidelines

She's hot, she's a girl, and dudes drool over her, they make as money off of her as they can..

 

[nitrorocks]

She's hot, she's a girl, and dudes drool over her, they make as money off of her as they can..

Exactly! That too. Shes not hot to me. She has more hair on her arms than I do, and shes like 5'1. If you meet her in person, its a whiole different story.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Top tier racing drivers are very special. There are many drivers that won't make it due to lack of talent and some who may have the potential but go broke before reaching it. Motorsport to be successful requires a lot of sponsorship, talent and luck (Being in the right place at the right time). There are tens of millions of F1 fans but only 24 get to be on the grid and drive F1 cars for a living .

I think most people on GTPlanet would struggle to come within a couple of seconds of an F1 driver in the virtual world, let alone do that in the real world. OP, get Ferrari Virtual Academy and test yourself against top tier drivers such as Alonso, Massa and Fisichella and then you will know how special they are .

 

[Rich S]

Yep because being a racing driver at the top tier doesn't involve comparable levels of fitness to traditional sports at all....

And I see none to back up yours either?

Scaff

Your right. Even overweight people like Tony Stewart can win Nascar Championships.....Not to mention Robby Gordon, "Mr Excitement" Jimmy Spencer, Mario Andretti at his peak>>>All of whom may not be able to pass a junior high gym class fitness exam.

My proof is in the pudding: race car drivers are not great athletes compared to olympians.....

-the massive racing "dynasties" of professional drivers like the Petty's, the Andretti's, the Earnhadt's, etc. All of whom remain competitive against "professional drivers" despite simply being born into the lifestyle rather than having worked their way into it

-The extreme expenses involved in getting child involved in go karts, low numbers of go kart participants compared to conventional sports such as hockey, football, basketball, softball, tennis, golf.

-Layman celebrities coming within 2 secs a lap of Sebastion Vettel, a world champion in his prime

-The gap between F1 teams being up to 8 seconds per lap

-F1 drivers "buying" their way into a team with large corporate sponsors & driving the car for no wage

-the lack of participants in F1 besides white Europeans & South Americans

-the lack of non-white, wealthy or upper middle class men in Nascar

Anways, I still enjoy auto racing but the drivers are not in the same league as pro athletes. Their aerobatic pilots at best.

 

[Scaff]

Your right. Even overweight people like Tony Stewart can win Nascar Championships.....Not to mention Robby Gordon, "Mr Excitement" Jimmy Spencer, Mario Andretti at his peak>>>All of whom may not be able to pass a junior high gym class fitness exam.

And do these people win season after season, race after race today?

The answer is no, just as a minor league football team will on occasion beat a major league team does not make it the norm or a team from the past woudl beat a team from today at the 'same' level. Other wise the exact same argument would apply to just about every sport on Earth.

When these individuals dominate a sport race after race, year after year then you may have a point.

Digging up drivers who's peak was back in the 60's and 70's hardly helps your point either, go take a good hard look at the number of people smoking in other sports back then. Sports fitness has changed in every sport massively over the last 40 years.

Even then you will always have an exception to the rule, just because you get one overweight footballer at the top level doesn't mean that all are the same.

Feel free to prove that the majority of participant in current top level motorsport meet this criteria and you will have a valid point, until then you are using exceptions as if they are the norm. Its something that could be done with almost any top tier sport.

My proof is in the pudding: race car drivers are not great athletes compared to olympians.....

I don't see any proof yet at all, simply conjecture and opinion. Its strange that the posted opinion of those in sport (as I have provided) is ignored. I await your independent proof that fitness in motorsport is unimportant.

-the massive racing "dynasties" of professional drivers like the Petty's, the Andretti's, the Earnhadt's, etc. All of whom remain competitive against "professional drivers" despite simply being born into the lifestyle rather than having worked their way into it

Are a very rare exception, for each one of these how many drivers exists who's sons, daughters, mothers and fathers were not successful racing drivers? More people compete at the top tier of motorsport who are not from racing dynasties that those who do. Add into that the rather clear fact that most of these 'dynasties' do not continually dominate and I don't see a valid point being made here at all.

-The extreme expenses involved in getting child involved in go karts, low numbers of go kart participants compared to conventional sports such as hockey, football, basketball, softball, tennis, golf.

I thought we were looking at the top tier only? I know of plenty of people who take their car to the track and take part in autocross and trackdays. Just as people take part in 5 a side football leagues.

Neither of these things has a major bearing on the skill and or fitness required to participate in any sport at the top tier. Simply stating that more people play football and then making the leap to that meaning its more difficult to become a top footballer is a logical fallacy. Prove the connection between those two and then you may have a point.

Oh and just an observation but if you do make that point it would seem that you are also linking golf to your list of top tier sports, do feel free to discuss just how 'cheap' golf is to take part in and just how diverse its participation demographic is and how close to the peak level of fitness of Olympians golfers are. These are after all all charges you level at motorsport to illustrate how motorport is does not require an exceptional level of skill or fitness.

-Layman celebrities coming within 2 secs a lap of Sebastion Vettel, a world champion in his prime

And if it were the 'ring that would be a valid point, however its an incredibly short track, at which two seconds is a massive difference in performance.

-F1 drivers "buying" their way into a team with large corporate sponsors & driving the car for no wage

Of course some do and its interesting to note that they are never competitive. Now if you point was a valid one they would be winning or at the very least on the podium on a regular basis.

-the lack of participants in F1 besides white Europeans & South Americans

Ummmm what's that Hamilton blokes background then? Or that Indian bloke, or Japanese ones?

-the lack of non-white, wealthy or upper middle class men in Nascar

Can we play the same game with Olympic Ice Hockey teams please?

Every sport on earth has a core demographic that makes up both its fans and participants. Once again this is a straw man argument that has nothing at all to do with the point you are trying to make.

Anways, I still enjoy auto racing but the drivers are not in the same league as pro athletes. Their aerobatic pilots at best.

An opinion at best and one that the posted evidence seems to disagree with.

A question for you. Have you ever driven a track car that generates a good amount of downforce (and therefore lateral Gs) on a track for any period of time?


Scaff

 

[Rich S]

And do these people win season after season, race after race today?

The answer is no, just as a minor league football team will on occasion beat a major league team does not make it the norm or a team from the past woudl beat a team from today at the 'same' level. Other wise the exact same argument would apply to just about every sport on Earth.

When these individuals dominate a sport race after race, year after year then you may have a point.

Digging up drivers who's peak was back in the 60's and 70's hardly helps your point either, go take a good hard look at the number of people smoking in other sports back then. Sports fitness has changed in every sport massively over the last 40 years.

Even then you will always have an exception to the rule, just because you get one overweight footballer at the top level doesn't mean that all are the same.

Feel free to prove that the majority of participant in current top level motorsport meet this criteria and you will have a valid point, until then you are using exceptions as if they are the norm. Its something that could be done with almost any top tier sport.





I don't see any proof yet at all, simply conjecture and opinion. Its strange that the posted opinion of those in sport (as I have provided) is ignored. I await your independent proof that fitness in motorsport is unimportant.



Are a very rare exception, for each one of these how many drivers exists who's sons, daughters, mothers and fathers were not successful racing drivers? More people compete at the top tier of motorsport who are not from racing dynasties that those who do. Add into that the rather clear fact that most of these 'dynasties' do not continually dominate and I don't see a valid point being made here at all.




I thought we were looking at the top tier only? I know of plenty of people who take their car to the track and take part in autocross and trackdays. Just as people take part in 5 a side football leagues.

Neither of these things has a major bearing on the skill and or fitness required to participate in any sport at the top tier. Simply stating that more people play football and then making the leap to that meaning its more difficult to become a top footballer is a logical fallacy. Prove the connection between those two and then you may have a point.

Oh and just an observation but if you do make that point it would seem that you are also linking golf to your list of top tier sports, do feel free to discuss just how 'cheap' golf is to take part in and just how diverse its participation demographic is and how close to the peak level of fitness of Olympians golfers are. These are after all all charges you level at motorsport to illustrate how motorport is does not require an exceptional level of skill or fitness.


And if it were the 'ring that would be a valid point, however its an incredibly short track, at which two seconds is a massive difference in performance.



Of course some do and its interesting to note that they are never competitive. Now if you point was a valid one they would be winning or at the very least on the podium on a regular basis.



Ummmm what's that Hamilton blokes background then? Or that Indian bloke, or Japanese ones?



Can we play the same game with Olympic Ice Hockey teams please?

Every sport on earth has a core demographic that makes up both its fans and participants. Once again this is a straw man argument that has nothing at all to do with the point you are trying to make.


An opinion at best and one that the posted evidence seems to disagree with.

A question for you. Have you ever driven a track car that generates a good amount of downforce (and therefore lateral Gs) on a track for any period of time?


Scaff

I'll continue this tomorrow, after I've gotten some sleep.

But before than I'll let you mule over whether or not you've ever starred first string in the Superbowl, or competed in the Olympic games.

 

[Scaff]

I'll continue this tomorrow, after I've gotten some sleep.

Feel free

But before than I'll let you mule over whether or not you've ever starred first string in the Superbowl, or competed in the Olympic games.

I don't need to mull that over, I've not.

However I have turned in 10 laps of Castle Combe in a Radical SR3, so I do have an idea of what its like to drive a high-downforce, high-g car (and still a fraction of that an F1 or LMP produces) at speed.

At around 7/10th of the car performance (and around my limit for the time I had with the car) it was the single most mentally and physically draining thing I had ever done. This was a time when I was cycling to work every day and 20 miles cross country on a bike was a norm for the weekend.

The point here is I have some idea of what is actually involved, so my question (that I note you have not answered) remains:

Have you ever driven a track car that generates a good amount of downforce (and therefore lateral Gs) on a track for any period of time?


And this time don't reply with a question, actually answer.


Scaff

 

[niky]

Motorsports are "open" anybody can perform at a reasonable level in a car. Not just anybody can dunk a basketball into the net.

What I'm saying is that a layman can become good at car racing. A layman cannot learn to run a 4:40 mile, or dunk a basketball.

Anyone who can jump high enough can dunk a basketball.

There are kids on high school teams across the world who can dunk basketballs. Hell, I had a friend who was all of five foot five who could dunk a basketball.

But do they have as many NBA rings as Steve Kerr, who can't? Are they hall-of-famers like John Stockton?

-

A normal person can run a marathon in under 3 hours, if they get in shape and train everyday. I used to be a runner, and a gymnast, and a cadet officer. Run for hours? No problem. Do 400 meters flat out? No problem. 200 push-ups? No problem!

The only thing holding me back from being professional level is that I've got the wrong body type. And angina. And diabetes.

Want to know what separates marathon winners from everyone else? What part of Africa they were born in. I kid you not. Genetics plays a huge role in picking pro-athletes in athletics.

But that's the luck of the draw, in every sport... including open-wheeled racing.

-

Any blame fool can drive a car fast... Give me enough laps and I can match low-level racers and driving instructors on a set course.

Over one lap of a course we're both unfamiliar with, in a decent car, I am just about as quick as my co-driver (a pro-karter and a drifter) at our technical tests. He's got better technique, but I can hang. Give it two laps, and he's quicker. Give it several laps, and he's pulling away everywhere. Give it a dozen and he's gone.

But then, there are those who are on another level. They get in that same car, sight unseen, drive the course and first time out they're putting in a laptime that's a second quicker than mine after dozens of laps. Then they go quicker still. And those are only the regional touring car drivers... when you talk about World Champions...

It takes an amazing amount of raw talent to push past the limits of that car and to extract a lap time two seconds faster than most people can drive on a track that's sopping wet.

Two seconds a lap may not sound like much, but that's over a hundred meters down a straightaway in a small, underpowered Liana. Coming over two seconds behind a pro-driver on a short course like that is like coming within a few seconds of a professional athlete in the hundred meter sprint. You're not even close.

To be fair, a Suzuki Liana has so little grip that the water probably doesn't make much of a difference. But it's still damn amazing.

-

Quoting NASCAR doesn't get you much. We were talking about F1 drivers, weren't we? Then you had to go looking for something different. NASCAR doesn't require a trim body and the ability to withstand high G-loads. It requires strength and endurance. Which is why you can have chubby NASCAR drivers. Just like you can have chubby weightlifters, Greco-roman wrestlers and competition strong-men... because looking like a Mr. Olympia cover boy isn't part of the requirements.

Think you could drive for over 2 hours in hundred degree heat, wheel-to-wheel with twenty other cars at 200 mph? Go ahead.

-

In F1, on the other hand, you need an immense level of cardio training and strength simply to be able to make it past a single lap. Driving an F1 car is like running a marathon with a jug full of water on your head and two chainsaws buzzing by your ears. Oh... and you require genetics, too. Having the right body type, slim, compact and great reflexes is a big advantage in a sport like F1. Never mind Mark Webber and Robert Kubica... but heck... how many F1 championships do they have between them?

Hell... even driving a less extreme car for an hour or more at track pace is a workout. It's hot, noisy, pulse-pounding work. Your arms and legs get a huge workout and at the end of the day, if you're not in great shape, they have to haul you out of the car.

And I'm not in great shape. Still strong, but not fit. I don't think I'd even last those 10 laps in a Radical... and getting a good time out of that car would take me a hell of a lot more than that.

 

[Seismica]

You make it sound like sponsorship money was just handed to him, without any consideration for his results.

He wasn't from a wealthy family, he wasn't from a racing family, everything that he received was because of his own ability. Sure, he got lucky with Mclaren, but they only chose the best young drivers they could find. And lets not forget he'd already won his second British karting championship before he signed...

Thank you.

He makes it sound like a random dude can walk into a big company and ask for sponsorship amd they'll just say "sure little boy, soon you will be in F1"

Nowhere did I say that Hamilton had no talent, infact I implied that talent was required to get the opportunites as you move up the ladder. He had earlier opportunities on a lesser scale, given to him by his Dad's hard work (effectively) which put him in the position to show his skill/talent to potential sponsors. Let's move away from Hamilton now, towards the general trend of top drivers. They all starting karting when they were around 7-8 years old. They all had the early opportunity to do this, usually through their parents who either had the finance or the willingness to put a lot of hard work into it. People who don't get these opportunities this early on don't have a chance to get the sponsorship later on required to get to the top tiers of motorsport, regardless of their 'hereditary talent'. Drivers at this age are given the chance to prove themselves whereas those who do not have this opportunity do not.

I believe that natural talent mostly relates to people's brain functions (I'm not a neuroscientist, but you get the idea) and we can conclude that those who are talented have better brain functions required for motorsport but that are not specific to motorsport (so calculations, reactions, memory and anticipating events that result from your actions - there are probably more scientific terms/characteristics out there). Let's assume that these higher brain functions are present in say 10% of the population, as a ballpark figure. If 1% of the population has parents that push them into karting then you can assume that 10% of that sample would have the 'talent', and therefore you can say right off the bat that 0.1*0.01 = 0.001% of the population has the talent and has been given the opportunity to show that talent.

But there is also evidence to show that in early development brain functions can be 'shaped' so to speak. This is why almost all professional sportsmen at the top of their game starting when they were very young. It's no coincidence, the body develops around the skills and functions they require to do what they are practicing. When you get older these functions can change, but much slower than when you are young. An example of how they can change when you are older is how people improve their brain functions by playing games such as Scrabble (or countdown on the TV), or doing a Sudoku in the paper. There is even a DS game entitled 'brain training' which proves that brain functions can change over time, which means in the grand scheme of things natural talent means very little as it is learnable, at a young age when the brain functions are still developing.

Then there is the fact that the lower formulas are not an even playing field as everyone makes them out to be. Then there is geographical location, some talented drivers are in a place where motorsport is not commonly followed due to cultural or climatic factors (amongst others). So the number of talented people who are getting into a car at a sufficiently early age that is required to hone their talent, is miniscule. Therefore I conclude that at least some of the drivers in the upper formulas have very little 'natural' talent, but are merely good drivers that have put significant hard work in to get where they are.

I'm tired, i'm going to bed. I've put some fair ideas forward to get people thinking. Argue amongst yourselves but unless anyone has some hard evidence or studies to put forward, everybody is just throwing around opinions, including myself. I don't like it when somebody questioned my opinion, by simply putting forth their own opinion. I answered the thread question based on my own opinion but have been drawn into an open ended debate. At some point somebody is going to have to dig up some factual evidence (Which should really have been put to me to counter my argument in the first place instead of 'blah blah blah you're wrong because I disagree'), which is the point at which I walk away from this argument because these things are impossible to ascertain.

And I see none to back up yours either?

You made the initial claim, its your job to back it up, not our to disprove it.

Scaff

Sense, this guy has it.

 

[nitrorocks]

Anyone who can jump high enough can dunk a basketball.

There are kids on high school teams across the world who can dunk basketballs. Hell, I had a friend who was all of five foot five who could dunk a basketball.

But do they have as many NBA rings as Steve Kerr, who can't? Are they hall-of-famers like John Stockton?

-

A normal person can run a marathon in under 3 hours, if they get in shape and train everyday. I used to be a runner, and a gymnast, and a cadet officer. Run for hours? No problem. Do 400 meters flat out? No problem. 200 push-ups? No problem!

The only thing holding me back from being professional level is that I've got the wrong body type. And angina. And diabetes.

Want to know what separates marathon winners from everyone else? What part of Africa they were born in. I kid you not. Genetics plays a huge role in picking pro-athletes in athletics.

But that's the luck of the draw, in every sport... including open-wheeled racing.

-

Any blame fool can drive a car fast... Give me enough laps and I can match low-level racers and driving instructors on a set course.

Over one lap of a course we're both unfamiliar with, in a decent car, I am just about as quick as my co-driver (a pro-karter and a drifter) at our technical tests. He's got better technique, but I can hang. Give it two laps, and he's quicker. Give it several laps, and he's pulling away everywhere. Give it a dozen and he's gone.

But then, there are those who are on another level. They get in that same car, sight unseen, drive the course and first time out they're putting in a laptime that's a second quicker than mine after dozens of laps. Then they go quicker still. And those are only the regional touring car drivers... when you talk about World Champions...

It takes an amazing amount of raw talent to push past the limits of that car and to extract a lap time two seconds faster than most people can drive on a track that's sopping wet.

Two seconds a lap may not sound like much, but that's over a hundred meters down a straightaway in a small, underpowered Liana. Coming over two seconds behind a pro-driver on a short course like that is like coming within a few seconds of a professional athlete in the hundred meter sprint. You're not even close.

To be fair, a Suzuki Liana has so little grip that the water probably doesn't make much of a difference. But it's still damn amazing.

-

Quoting NASCAR doesn't get you much. We were talking about F1 drivers, weren't we? Then you had to go looking for something different. NASCAR doesn't require a trim body and the ability to withstand high G-loads. It requires strength and endurance. Which is why you can have chubby NASCAR drivers. Just like you can have chubby weightlifters, Greco-roman wrestlers and competition strong-men... because looking like a Mr. Olympia cover boy isn't part of the requirements.

Think you could drive for over 2 hours in hundred degree heat, wheel-to-wheel with twenty other cars at 200 mph? Go ahead.

-

In F1, on the other hand, you need an immense level of cardio training and strength simply to be able to make it past a single lap. Driving an F1 car is like running a marathon with a jug full of water on your head and two chainsaws buzzing by your ears. Oh... and you require genetics, too. Having the right body type, slim, compact and great reflexes is a big advantage in a sport like F1. Never mind Mark Webber and Robert Kubica... but heck... how many F1 championships do they have between them?

Hell... even driving a less extreme car for an hour or more at track pace is a workout. It's hot, noisy, pulse-pounding work. Your arms and legs get a huge workout and at the end of the day, if you're not in great shape, they have to haul you out of the car.

And I'm not in great shape. Still strong, but not fit. I don't think I'd even last those 10 laps in a Radical... and getting a good time out of that car would take me a hell of a lot more than that.

Amen! My 100cc kart is still. Work out! Lol

 

[The Outlaw]

They dont.
Yeah.....I think thats about right.

Lewis hamilton by the way is fast, he might be in 99th percentile of driving ability, he might not. Regardless there's millions capable of doing what he's done in the car.

Unfortunately, being capable of something doesn't mean anything in reality if you don't achieve what you are truly capable of (the if's and but's don't really matter). It's kind of like saying you're capable of passing a class, but in the end you were to lazy to put in the work/effort and ended up flunking. A large part in being successful at the top level is in your dedication. Also in a lot of sports, physical attributes (such as being tall or naturally strong) play a large part in your success....which is hardly something to really appreciate IMO (as it was just something that was randomly handed to them through their DNA).

To me, most of what entails being a proffesional athlete at the very highest level is in your mental strength, dedication/focus to your passion (if you don't have that, you have nothing), and preparation. Hell there's a lot of people that I know back from highschool who probably could have gone pro in some sport or another, but they simply lacked the dedication (the most crucial part) to make it to the next level.

And as far as you claiming to be capable of lapping within .5 seconds of Webber in an F1 car within 30 laps or whatever...this is probably one of the most ridiculous things I've heard on this forum in a long time, as well as being a straight slap in the face to any high level proffesional racing driver (especially an F1 caliber driver). With that said, I'd be more than happy to bet that you couldn't even come within .5 of the record at your local indoor go kart track, let alone even anywhere near 5 seconds of Webber's time in an F1 car (some of the claims you're making, make it sound like you are beyond naive).

Even if you managed to keep it on track at 70% of it's limit, You couldn't even go fast enough to maximize the cars downforce, or get the tires into their operating window. You would probably lose .5 just in the first braking zone alone, as your eyes would lose focus of the apex and you wouldn't understand how late you could truly brake because of the massive levels of DF. And I must ask - are you even quick in sim racing? (which shows you have some level of fine motor skills and coordination) And have you had any competitive on track experience IRL, or have you just watched racing on TV and judged your competitiveness and ability from there? I must say, racing an F1 car is something you would really have to experience first hand to really appreciate the skill and athleticism involved...because judging your ability's from an armchair means nothing in this case.

 

[Tintorera]

I actually have one example of the strength needed to be able to drive these high-power, high-grip cars Like LMP1/2 F1 etc.

Petter Solberg, a WRC Champion(the year before the Loeb reign), was in early 2011 trying out to run the 24h LeMans race in a LMP2 car.
He was putting down some impressive lap times, but. after close to an hour in the seat he was completely "worn out".
The strain on the neck and arm muscles was incredible high according to him.

By thinking of the fitness needed to be a top WRC driver, this gave me an eye opener of what is required from an LMP or F1 driver.

 

[Bigbazz]

Have you seen how much actual fitness these drivers do? They are at the absolute top level, Jenson button does triathlons in his resting time. All they do between races is simulator, promotion and training, all they do between seasons... simulator, promotions and training.

Then you got talent, you take all the best GT5 sim racers in the world, some of them race in real life too before they do this, then you weed them out to the final and you come out with a top driver, out of millions of entries. He will still get slaughtered by a current F1 driver.

Lucas Ordoñez was one of those who beat the millions and now he is a top level racing driver, but that doesnt mean he could step into F1 and compete, chances are he would get creamed by more than half the field, especially the big 4 (Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Button). You forget that yes these drivers had money to support them, but they still dominated their way at the top level through all different levels of motorsport. If you look at the history of these top drivers they have been exceptional to a level that only someone with that much talent and dedication could ever achieve. Money alone cannot buy you into F1, you need buckets of talent, money is simply required in addition.

If anybody on these forums could get within 15 seconds of Mark Webber in an F1 car I would be mighty impressed. An interesting watch was Greger Huttu, he got to drive a Star Mazda, this guy is perhaps the single best allround sim racer in the world, at the time he was the iRacing world champion in the iRacing Star Mazda. He did great and was only around 2 seconds off the fast guys pace, but due to lack of fitness he wasn't able to actually do many laps, it just took too much out of him. A Star Mazda is nothing compared to the beating you would get in an F1 car.

 

[TheBook]

On that note, I'd be mighty impressed if someone on here (christhedude notwithstanding, as he races in the VLN series and is probably fit enough to do so) could even last 30 laps in an F1 car without passing out, let alone do it at anything resembling quick. I probably wouldn't even last three.