How "Special" are PRO race Drivers?

[hampus_dh]

Anyways, the physical requirements of that particular F1 circuit are not significant compared to some of the high speed ovals CART raced on,

Yes they are. Close to 6g in braking force for example.

WATCH,
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/video/main-gallery/the-art-of/

 

[Rich S]

The braking is hard, but Tracy was able to take it...he was an open wheel racer & did alot of road courses in his day.

There's no doubt the PHYSICAL requirements of F1 are far above & beyond that of other motorsports, but it appears F1/IRL is the lone gunman in car racing when it comes to fitness.

Another thing this year that struck me as surprising was who won the Daytona 500, dubbed "the Great American race" and one that achieves greater ratings than the Indy 500 in many instances.

You go on and on and on to no end about how many years Webber has slaved away to improve those lap times, but in motorsports in general I see people simply climbing into a car for the 12th time and winning the biggest race there is in the sport.

 

[TheCracker]

You go on and on and on to no end about how many years Webber has slaved away to improve those lap times, but in motorsports in general I see people simply climbing into a car for the 12th time and winning the biggest race there is in the sport.

[Citation Needed]

 

[Hollidog]

Layman vs Professional? No chance.

I raced karts for ten years and in the time preceding two of my friends and competitors have advanced their careers to the point where one is competing in GP3 and the other is in F3 Euroseries and are likely to progress to GP2 next year. I raced against these guys in their junior years and they were immensely talented. Could see gaps for passing where no one else could, can judge breaking distances and apex speeds. All the while managing the temperature of the engine, the correct gear for the corner, the handling and the set up of the kart, evaluating it and thinking of ways to improve it, all while racing with up to twenty other people who all have the same goal. And then you see them do it in the rain on slicks and its unimaginable. Thats where the difference is, in the dry its a couple of tenths, but in the wet, its seconds.

Yes, these people were supported by money, but it only gets you into the series, the equipment is all the same and the teams are not very separable, especially at the top.

The other thing is, you mention running a marathon and dunking a basketball. Well if you ask me, they are quite different, anyone can run a marathon, you can run a marathon without doing any training at all, and even beyond that, everyone can run, just the same as anyone can drive a car, or dribble a basketball. It takes almost no talent to be able to do either of those things. Look at Alex Zanardi, an ex two time CART champion who now has no legs, finishes the NYC Marathon 50 minutes faster than the next able bodied person, and he was on a hand operated cycle bike. He is actually a good example, as he is going to be competing at the paralympics next year, I guess you will get your comparison then.

However, not everyone can dunk a basketball, as not everyone is tall enough or simply "has what it takes" as it were. This is the same as how not everyone can roll their tongue, its something your born with, and no matter what you can't learn it.

 

[Rich S]

 

[hampus_dh]

The braking is hard, but Tracy was able to take it...he was an open wheel racer & did alot of road courses in his day.

Tracy was able to take it... Really. When did Tracy try an F1 car?

There's no doubt the PHYSICAL requirements of F1 are far above & beyond that of other motorsports, but it appears F1/IRL is the lone gunman in car racing when it comes to fitness.

REALLY... Ever heard of Le Mans?
You think that you would be able to jump in and do a 3-4 hour stint just like that and keep the times consistent?

Herbert ran the Mazda 787b and his water bottle broke down during the last stint.
They had to carry him out of the car after the race..

Another thing this year that struck me as surprising was who won the Daytona 500, dubbed "the Great American race" and one that achieves greater ratings than the Indy 500 in many instances.

Another random sentence that has nothing to do with the subject at hand..

You go on and on and on to no end about how many years Webber has slaved away to improve those lap times, but in motorsports in general I see people simply climbing into a car for the 12th time and winning the biggest race there is in the sport.

Really.. Care to show a few examples?

Oh wait i have one.. his name is Jean-Eric Vergne and test drove the RBR RB7 for THREE DAYS.

He has raced in these motorsports:

Karting
Formula Renault 1.6 & 2.0
Formula Three
GP3 Series
Formula Renault 3.5 Series

Then he got to test the RBR for three full days and is still nearly half a second of Vettel´s time.

 

[Rich S]

It takes almost no talent to be able to do either of those things. Look at Alex Zanardi, an ex two time CART champion who now has no legs, finishes the NYC Marathon 50 minutes faster than the next able bodied person, and he was on a hand operated cycle bike. He is actually a good example, as he is going to be competing at the paralympics next year, I guess you will get your comparison then.

However, not everyone can dunk a basketball, as not everyone is tall enough or simply "has what it takes" as it were. This is the same as how not everyone can roll their tongue, its something your born with, and no matter what you can't learn it.

The gap between the "average" competitor and the top competitor in other sports is much larger than in motorsport.

The "average" Joe can learn to drive a race car and be competitive.

Bill Elliot's son races, the Watltrip kids race, etc, etc. They will all get Nascar contracts; merit not required b/c it means little in motorsport. A Rookie won the Daytona 500 (pictured above).

ITs like owning a stunt plane. You can say the aerobatics pilot is "talented" but how many people own one of those beauties?

 

[vfrmaverick]

The braking is hard, but Tracy was able to take it...he was an open wheel racer & did alot of road courses in his day.

There's no doubt the PHYSICAL requirements of F1 are far above & beyond that of other motorsports, but it appears F1/IRL is the lone gunman in car racing when it comes to fitness.

Another thing this year that struck me as surprising was who won the Daytona 500, dubbed "the Great American race" and one that achieves greater ratings than the Indy 500 in many instances.

You go on and on and on to no end about how many years Webber has slaved away to improve those lap times, but in motorsports in general I see people simply climbing into a car for the 12th time and winning the biggest race there is in the sport.

Can you please pick a topic and stick to it? Every time someone proves you wrong (which isnt hard) you just jump to another conclusion.

F1 being the most physically demanding, yes I agree with that seeing as how nascar and irl tracks usually have substancial banking thus the G forces are in a more tolerable manner. And while there may be guys out there who are not the most fit looking (tony stewart) there are tons of others who spend most of their off track time doing rigorous workout routines. And im just talking of nascar drivers.

Nw to the remark about the daytona 500. Its a race known for giving a level playing field. Also known for the winners not having been the most dominant. Think of dale sr, only won it once on his 20th try, The guy who is tied for most championships only won it once after being known for being great at racing there. Tony stewart is also known for being a great racer there and has yet to win it in over a decade, hes won every other race there multiple times but the 500. Its a track where being at the right place and right time are more valuable than experience. That being said we can talk of the season trevor bayne has had after daytona, lots of crashing and lots of bad finishes.

 

[TheCracker]

Bayne began his racing career racing go-karts at the age of five...

Seriously. Your point?

 

[Hollidog]

Am I to assume this is Trevor Bayne? A quick browse of Wikipedia should change your views if this is who you are referring to when you say "I see people simply climbing into a car for the 12th time and winning the biggest race there is in the sport."

To quote Wikipedia

Bayne began his racing career racing go-karts at the age of five. After eight years, he moved to Allison Legacy Race Series, where he became the youngest top rookie. Two years later, he moved to the USAR Hooters Pro Cup Series Southern Division. In 2008, he signed a contract with Dale Earnhardt, Inc. to race in the NASCAR Camping World East Series, where he recorded one win, six top-five, and seven top-10 finishes. One year later, he recorded Sunoco Rookie of the Race honors after participating in the Toyota All-Star Showdown at Irwindale Speedway. Also in 2009, he began racing in the Nationwide Series for Michael Waltrip Racing. After about two years with the team, he moved to Roush Fenway Racing, at the late end of the season, and began racing in the Sprint Cup Series for Wood Brothers Racing. In 2011, Bayne won the Daytona 500, becoming the youngest driver to win the race at 20 years and 1 day.

Now the only thing I know about this guy is that, but I already know that he spends two years racing in the NASCAR World East Series and you're trying to tell me that he has only done twelve races? Again, I don't know too much, but I'm pretty sure there has already been about 34 races in the Nationwide series of NASCAR this year, even assuming they only do half the amount, thats still 34 races in total, not to mention his previous 13 years experience in motorsport.

EDIT: Tree'd

 

[Rich S]

There's no doubt Trevor raced other cars but going from the dirt tracks & short tracks to restrictor plate racing is akin to changing over from basketball to football, and being successful.

Its an unlikely achievement if actual driver skill & specific fitness has anything to do with the situation.

Again it seems to have more to do with equipment & money. He started racing at age 5? A five year old on welfare living in south Chicago has no chance of being a motor racing driver.

Any 5 year old could play in the NBA with the physical ability (natural genetics.)

 

[vfrmaverick]

The gap between the "average" competitor and the top competitor in other sports is much larger than in motorsport.

The "average" Joe can learn to drive a race car and be competitive.

Bill Elliot's son races, the Watltrip kids race, etc, etc. They will all get Nascar contracts; merit not required b/c it means little in motorsport. A Rookie won the Daytona 500 (pictured above).

ITs like owning a stunt plane. You can say the aerobatics pilot is "talented" but how many people own one of those beauties?

Really? Well while were at it. I used to play soccer as a kid, by your same logic if I spent enough time I would have become a champion soccer player? The likelyhood is that no matter how much more i trained there would be someone with more talent out there.
Waltrips kids dont race, thats wallaces kid. And he only races cause daddy has a big enough name to race. Yet im sure he can still outdrive all of us in this thread.

Also have you even flown a damn airplane before? Let alone backseated a stuntplane? I have, multiple times. Most people take thousands of hours to fly a plane to a level qualified as a commercial pilot. That is hard enough as it is. Most people that do aerobatics need to have strong yet lightweight bodies to fight G force without adding more bulk to fight. Tey need to have precise hand-eye coordination, they actually plan all of their flights and not just take ff and do stuff till they are tired. I know many people whove tried just basic flying and could not do it to a level clasified as safe, let alone worthy of admiration.

 

[Hollidog]

The gap between the "average" competitor and the top competitor in other sports is much larger than in motorsport.

The "average" Joe can learn to drive a race car and be competitive.

Bill Elliot's son races, the Watltrip kids race, etc, etc. They will all get Nascar contracts; merit not required b/c it means little in motorsport. A Rookie won the Daytona 500 (pictured above).

ITs like owning a stunt plane. You can say the aerobatics pilot is "talented" but how many people own one of those beauties?

While what you say about these people who may race in NASCAR in the future (Who are these people anyway? I think Billy Elliot is a movie) You can't take American motorsports seriously at all, the whole thing is a sell, the whole of America is a sell really, its a giant corporate machine and thats just the way it is. NASCAR and IndyCar are not representations of drivers with real talent, if you want real talent, you have to go Europe.

Even considering for a moment what you mean when you say professional, I assume you mean they get paid, well I would estimate that not even half of all of the current F1 drivers get paid by their teams, sure some sponsors may pay their living expenses and the team may pay for the travel costs. So I guess that writes off most of the people in your examples who you claim to be professionals. The average Joe can learn, but is the average Joe going to be contracted to Ferrari to replace Fernando Alonso next year?

 

[vfrmaverick]

There's no doubt Trevor raced other cars but going from the dirt tracks & short tracks to restrictor plate racing is akin to changing over from basketball to football, and being successful.

Its an unlikely achievement if actual driver skill & specific fitness has anything to do with the situation.

Again it seems to have more to do with equipment & money. He started racing at age 5? A five year old on welfare living in south Chicago has no chance of being a motor racing driver.

Any 5 year old could play in the NBA with the physical ability (natural genetics.)

bayne has also been racing in nationwide series since 2009, and race ther paved ovals before that.

 

[Rich S]

Really? Well while were at it. I used to play soccer as a kid, by your same logic if I spent enough time I would have become a champion soccer player? .

You couldnt because you didnt have the skill. Soccer requires GENETICS & merit.

A layman can become a top race car driver. Racing requires MONEY and a small amount of merit. Most people can be taught to be "elite" at driving a race car.

 

[Pupik]

There's no doubt Trevor raced other cars but going from the dirt tracks & short tracks to restrictor plate racing is akin to changing over from basketball to football, and being successful.

Its an unlikely achievement if actual driver skill & specific fitness has anything to do with the situation.

Again it seems to have more to do with equipment & money. He started racing at age 5? A five year old on welfare living in south Chicago has no chance of being a motor racing driver.

They point is they're a different type of athlete; a star soccer player isn't going to be a world-beater at basketball, a star football player isn't suddenly going to be on the NHL's All-Star List. And baseball players are going to suddenly shake up the ATP Tennis tour. Their specific training, experience, and expertise doesn't match up equally form one discipline to another, unless you want to put them all together, and make them play some way-out sport at none of them have ever tried (like Buzkashi or Caber tossing).

I think you're looking for every possible scenario and oddball example to discredit motor racing drivers. If that's what you want to believe, under a pile of overwhelming evidence, then go right ahead...

Any 5 year old could play in the NBA with the physical ability (natural genetics.)

...never mind, just quit while far behind. That's about as stupid a comment as it gets.

 

[Tuck !]

The gap between the "average" competitor and the top competitor in other sports is much larger than in motorsport.

The "average" Joe can learn to drive a race car and be competitive.

Bill Elliot's son races, the Watltrip kids race, etc, etc. They will all get Nascar contracts; merit not required b/c it means little in motorsport. A Rookie won the Daytona 500 (pictured above).

ITs like owning a stunt plane. You can say the aerobatics pilot is "talented" but how many people own one of those beauties?

The reason why the gap is so small is due to motorsports being more of man being limited to the machine. But to shave off those extra few tenths of a seconds matters alot in motorsports. These few tenths of a seconds would determine how special you'd think these drivers are.

And by the way, your last line makes no sense.

 

[TheCracker]

There's no doubt Trevor raced other cars but going from the dirt tracks & short tracks to restrictor plate racing is akin to changing over from basketball to football, and being successful.

No it isn't. It's like stepping upto F1 from Formula Renault 3.5.

Again it seems to have more to do with equipment & money. He started racing at age 5? A five year old on welfare living in south Chicago has no chance of being a motor racing driver.

Any 5 year old could play in the NBA with the physical ability (natural genetics.)

Not if that 5 year old didn't get to play basketball at school.

 

[vfrmaverick]

While what you say about these people who may race in NASCAR in the future (Who are these people anyway? I think Billy Elliot is a movie) You can't take American motorsports seriously at all, the whole thing is a sell, the whole of America is a sell really, its a giant corporate machine and thats just the way it is. NASCAR and IndyCar are not representations of drivers with real talent, if you want real talent, you have to go Europe.

Even considering for a moment what you mean when you say professional, I assume you mean they get paid, well I would estimate that not even half of all of the current F1 drivers get paid by their teams, sure some sponsors may pay their living expenses and the team may pay for the travel costs. So I guess that writes off most of the people in your examples who you claim to be professionals. The average Joe can learn, but is the average Joe going to be contracted to Ferrari to replace Fernando Alonso next year?

Youre not doing much better by saying nascar drivers have no talent. Jeff gordon when driving a williams F1 ran laps fast enough to qualify midfield for the indy f1 race on his first time driving that car and track. jimmy johnson and carl edwards have gone to represent team USA in the race of champions for a couple of years and have done quite respectable, taking down others like schumacker. If anything knowing the POS cars they have to drive around, cant adjust the car for different sections of the track and at many times almost drift their way around trying to control a car that just wants to crash is not having "real talent", then your views of talent are very wrong. Take aussie marcos ambrose, dominated V8 supercars for years, has 1 cup win and only on a roadcourse. Same for juan pablo montoya, multiple F1 wins and has been a top 15 driver and known for not being the smartest driver either.

 

[Hollidog]

There's no doubt Trevor raced other cars but going from the dirt tracks & short tracks to restrictor plate racing is akin to changing over from basketball to football, and being successful.

Its an unlikely achievement if actual driver skill & specific fitness has anything to do with the situation.

Again it seems to have more to do with equipment & money. He started racing at age 5? A five year old on welfare living in south Chicago has no chance of being a motor racing driver.

Any 5 year old could play in the NBA with the physical ability (natural genetics.)

Again, you are wrong, motorsport skill are easily transferrable, just the same as athletic ability (see: Michael Jordan, NBA to MLB, not the best baseball player, but a buttload better than you or me could ever aspire to be) The racing instinct is the same, the core talent is the same irrespective of the chosen discipline. This is why you see Valentino Rossi and Sebastien Loeb testing F1 cars, granted their specialty is where it is, but they all posses the same thing that makes them quicker than everyone else.

Its not F1 but in drifting Mad Mike started his career riding dirt bikes competitively and then moved straight on to drifting. Shane Van Gisbergen used to drive quad bikes around the grass at his house when he was a kid. Just the same as people kick soccer balls.

A 5 year old kid on welfare also has a very low chance of becoming a Harvard graduate, yet there are more of them than there will ever be of F1 drivers.

Youre not doing much better by saying nascar drivers have no talent. Jeff gordon when driving a williams F1 ran laps fast enough to qualify midfield for the indy f1 race on his first time driving that car and track. jimmy johnson and carl edwards have gone to represent team USA in the race of champions for a couple of years and have done quite respectable, taking down others like schumacker. If anything knowing the POS cars they have to drive around, cant adjust the car for different sections of the track and at many times almost drift their way around trying to control a car that just wants to crash is not having "real talent", then your views of talent are very wrong. Take aussie marcos ambrose, dominated V8 supercars for years, has 1 cup win and only on a roadcourse. Same for juan pablo montoya, multiple F1 wins and has been a top 15 driver and known for not being the smartest driver either.

I didn't really mean it in that way, of course there is talent there, but the importance of sponsorship and branding means that the driver . Look at Danica Patrick for example.

Also, as far as Im aware, no American has ever won the Race of Champions before, they did win the Nations Cup once but Schumacher did not race in that year, and Schumacher has in fact won the Nations Cup with Sebastien Vettel for the last four years running.

 

[vfrmaverick]

You couldnt because you didnt have the skill. Soccer requires GENETICS & merit.

A layman can become a top race car driver. Racing requires MONEY and a small amount of merit. Most people can be taught to be "elite" at driving a race car.

I should have played baseball then cause im hispanic, see how many hispanics dominate baseball? Its gotta be in my GENETICS. Im sure if I pick a bat up Ill just hit home runs all day long.


Do you now see how stupid you sound? I know many people with money laying around who take their high performance cars on trackdays frequently. They all had the same attitude as you until they went out and actually tried driving on a track, let alone racing others. I recomend before you make another post here to go to your local track and drive there.

 

[Scaff]

Rich S - I'm still awaiting your answer to this:

The point here is I have some idea of what is actually involved, so my question (that I note you have not answered) remains:

Have you ever driven a track car that generates a good amount of downforce (and therefore lateral Gs) on a track for any period of time?


And this time don't reply with a question, actually answer.


Scaff

and would appreciate it if you would do so. I after all answered your question.


Scaff

 

[hampus_dh]

You couldnt because you didnt have the skill. Soccer requires GENETICS & merit.

A layman can become a top race car driver. Racing requires MONEY and a small amount of merit. Most people can be taught to be "elite" at driving a race car.

You are dreaming. Why are you not in the GT Academy?

Because you isn´t that quick. Turning on your PS3 and log laps on GT5 is free and it´s 100% about skill so why are you not in Formula 1 now?

 

[Rich S]

While what you say about these people who may race in NASCAR in the future (Who are these people anyway? I think Billy Elliot is a movie) You can't take American motorsports seriously at all, the whole thing is a sell, the whole of America is a sell really, its a giant corporate machine and thats just the way it is.

Yeah but Formula 1 really is too.....nascar actually has less of a gap between the cars than F1. You see races in Nascar won and lost by a nose. You'd be lucky to see that across the pond in the UK (unless it was at one of the ovals with an american series.)

In fairness, F1 drivers are more physically fit & they are fired & hired more frequently which shows merit plays a part.

You are dreaming. Why are you not in the GT Academy?

Because you isn´t that quick. Turning on your PS3 and log laps on GT5 is free and it´s 100% about skill so why are you not in Formula 1 now?

The thread title is not about me. Its about motor racing versus conventional sports. Your off topic and frequenting "ad hominem" attacks against me because you have little substance in your arguments.

 

[Tuck !]

Yeah but Formula 1 really is too.....nascar actually has less of a gap between the cars than F1. You see races in Nascar won and lost by a nose. You'd be lucky to see that across the pond in the UK (unless it was at one of the ovals with an american series.)

In fairness, F1 drivers are more physically fit & they are fired & hired more frequently which shows merit plays a part.

This post makes me wonder whether do you even know what is Formula 1.

 

[hampus_dh]

The thread title is not about me. Its about motor racing versus conventional sports. Your off topic and frequenting "ad hominem" attacks against me because you have little substance in your arguments.

Actually it is about you. Have you even read every page in this?
Are you even aware yourself that the sole purpose of this thread being created is because of you and your claims?

It´s nothing personal, if i´m attacking something it´s your arguments.

"because you have little substance in your arguments."

You see that is where you are wrong. YOU are the one with zero substance in any of your arguments. You just want to find an argument that holds water so you can not show any respect to the fastest drivers on the planet.

 

[Rich S]

You just want to find an argument that holds water so you can not show any respect to the fastest drivers on the planet.

I do have respect for anybody who entertains me or beats me in a race for that matter. But do I respect race drivers AS MUCH as I do someone who rides the Tour de France? Not even close.

The thread is about comparing the difficulty & level of accomplishment of motorsports & conventional sports. Pure athletic endeavers are not just harder, but more competitive because there's MORE PEOPLE COMPETING.

If I could drive a race car in real life I would. I have no chance, I do not have the money. Most people dont.

 

[daan]

I see you're still ignoring Scaff's question. It may be a good idea to answer it now. 💡

 

[Hollidog]

Do you have the money required to cycle in the Tour de France? Does everyone else? Its irrelevant the amount of people competing at one time, these drivers have beat out tens of thousands of others to get their seat and there are tens of thousands more who want to take it from you, you aren't just trying to beat the guys in front of you on track, your trying to beat the guys behind you in years.

 

[hampus_dh]

I do have respect for anybody who entertains me or beats me in a race for that matter. But do I respect race drivers AS MUCH as I do someone who rides the Tour de France? Not even close.

The thread is about comparing the difficulty & level of accomplishment of motorsports & conventional sports. Pure athletic endeavers are not just harder, but more competitive because there's MORE PEOPLE COMPETING.

If I could drive a race car in real life I would. I have no chance, I do not have the money. Most people dont.

Why not? Just because a cyclist has the perfect body type for cycling rather then an F1 driver which has the perfect brain to do F1?

So what if there´s more people competing? By your logics no sport can fullfill your argument as you would need to have a sport where every human being on this planet must have tried to be good at.

An example is polls. If you ask 1.000 people a question which has yes/no as answer.

If you take that same poll and ask 100.000 people, the chance of the answers being the same is extremely high.

There are footballers out there that would smack Messis butt but since their parents told them to stay home to study they will never be aware of their potential.

"If I could drive a race car in real life I would. I have no chance, I do not have the money. Most people dont."

Again, turn on GT5 and beat the world records then. It´s basically free and it´s 100% about skill not money. You will probably dodge this part of my post..

You talk like you are a diamond in the dirt with the skills to beat any of the top F1 drivers in the game today. Yet you have nothing to back it up with except your own ego.