How to finally get gud (or at least better)

  • Thread starter DoctorNuu
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DoctorNuu
Getting good is obviously a relative thing. If you are 5% off, you want 4%, then 3%, etc.
My limit is pretty consistently at 2% off - but only after I practice really hard.
The point is that the 2% off (1:32.000 at Interlagos) felt like my personal limit, running out of ideas of how to improve.
I'm not a dreamer looking for some magic to get me to the Top 10. (i.e. 1:30.500)

My goal is to get to 1% off, which should be achievable if one knows what to do.
There must be specific (but unknown) things, Top drivers do, which I don't!
One thing that comes to mind (so not unknown anymore) is consistently looking at the right things, which I am currently working on.
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Getting from 2% to 1% away from the top time is a very big ask. It all depends on what is the cause of the time loss. Maybe you have a 1% time difference level ability but are being held back by something that you're doing wrong. For most people, the time loss is largely just the limit of the fidelity with which they can judge things. So I can look back at a replay of my laps, and see places where I'm losing time, and if I could pull off a perfect lap by my standards where I can't see anything I'm doing wrong, then I think I'd be within 1% of EMEA #1's time for Gr.3, but I just can't reproduce my actions to that level of accuracy. For Gr.4 and N classes, on some tracks, I can be at 1% or lower (0.73% looks to be my best ever result), but not for Gr.3. If I get 0.1% closer with 6 months of practice, I see that as good progress. You're typically looking at 10 years of training to reach your potential in a sport, so 0.1% every 6 months for 10 years would get you from 2% to 0%.
 
RacingGrandpa
I'm going to unsub this thread now. Being rude to people that are responding to your plead for help is not very charming.
Bye bye.
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There was absolutely no intent of being rude.
Sorry, @Groundfish (and @RacingGrandpa) if the TCS, granny or other remarks were crossing a line.
I was just trying to be funny/trolling/bantering! Oh man, just when I crossed the 10 subscriber mark, Grandpa is out.:(

Pigems
Do you break a track down into priority of corners? As in, which corner is the most important down to least important? If not, start with the fastest corner that leads to the longest straight, that spot is where you can gain the most amount of time, then move onto 2nd fastest corner leading to the 2nd longest straight away. Even if you have to draw the track out by hand and number them all, it really helps quite a bit.
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Good point. Never did this on purpose, just based on feeling.
The Senna S felt like the top turn you need to get right.
The slow sections are however also very critical. I tend to be way too slow there.
Thanks for pointing out that in general, a systematic approach, based on data is preferable.
Like with losing weight. If you don't measure, it's likely nothing will happen.

Started today with a more willingness to actually 'do the work'.

Suzuka East is really a nice track to learn/practice. Everything happens so slowly.
Pretty happy with my 0:51:115 - Even beat him by 0.085 in Sector 2.
Lessons learned:
A. Braking deep into Turn 1. Once you get used to it it does not even feel like braking. You just slow down constantly.
B. Controlling the car with throttle and steering through the Esses. Here you can really feel details after a while.
C. Smoothly coasting through the long 180 at the end. No need to upset the car. Still I tend to bottle it if on a hot lap.


@breeminator: Really good points. That's exactly my thinking. Need to find the thing holding me back or limiting.
And yes, it seems way easier in the Gr4 or slower cars. I even had a Top10 last year in the Fiat 500. Put in a mad amount of boring work there, probably nobody else cared.
 
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DoctorNuu
Nice one. Also explains a lot of chimps just playing catch instead of racing.

Speaking of Videos, why has nobody mentioned Driver61?
IMHO he has the best advice on YouTube. Clear and specific as I like it.

See for example: (somehow he has 2 channels, one is sim racing only as I undrstand)


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I like Driver61’s videos as well, very informative and to the point. 👍
 
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Don't be rude! ;-)
Nice video, though, for a change.

It's not that I enjoy teasing you by keeping a secret.
I have something in mind that would probably sound pretty shallow if presented in 1-2 sentences.
Maybe I'll find the patience to write it down in more detail.
 
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tonybarnaby
I’m far from being fast. Before GT Sport, I had never felt the urge to race online. Previous GT titles had very solid career modes, so I didn’t feel like I was missing out on anything. The AI is obviously far below a good human player, but it gave me a challenge and I always felt like it I lost it was fair. The AI doesn’t purposely look for someone and take them out like a real player might if they feel like you took them out. I won some against the AI and I lost some, but I had fun.

Coming online with GT Sport showed me how truly off the pace I am. Qualifying middle of the pack or worse, and usually 4-5 seconds off of the pole. That’s not missing an apex here and there, that is a massive gap. I immediately got frustrated and thought about just staying offline. Then I realized, winning doesn’t give me anything of real value, and I should just race clean and consistent (slow) and do my thing. After about 4 hours in a row, I was able to consistently finish between 4-7th place. Never even close to sniffing a victory, but I had some great battles for position, even if it was 7th place and not trying to get the win. I noticed that once I took the pressure of winning off, I drove way smoother and had more fun. This may be a losers mentality, but I’m also realistic about my ability and realize not everyone can be fast. Maybe I could get faster, but I have time for a few hours of racing per week, so I am now focusing on driving smooth and clean and enjoying myself. A battle for 5th can be as fun as winning.
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This is an interesting thread with many very valid and useful points, most of all I need to get into your mindset, and I need to stop looking at the top ten times that I can't hope to get near (maybe PD should add some charts of laps from mere mortals like us!). I'm in the same boat as you in that I only get a few hours a week on GTS and so should be realistic about my prospects. I should gain satisfaction from the fact I have won a few races and managed a pole position or two which has upped my DR to C, I shall now build on that.
 
1) Do you know what a racing line is?
2) Can you trail brake, steer smoothly and get on power progressively?
3) Can you hit your brake points, apexes and use all the road width consistently?

If the answer to all 3 is yes, congratulations! You know everything needed to be fast in racing. Everything else is just fine tuning those 3 main things. There's lots of books, videos, tutorials, etc saying a whole lot of things, but if you boil it down it comes back to those 3 again. I've said this in another thread, but once you get within 2-3 seconds of the top times, the difference between you and a top alien is just ACCURACY. You're not missing any super special hidden technique. It's just repetition and practice to get that pixel perfect lap. You gain 0.2 second per corner, over a 10 corner lap you gain 2 seconds. Over a race of 10 laps you gain 20 seconds. You look like a god, and the other guy look like an idiot. But actually the difference between you two is small. It's just accumulated over time and distance.



Unfortunately, everyone has an intrinsic limit to this "internal" accuracy, determined by the wiring in your brain/hands/feet. Yes you can always improve with more practice, but sooner or later everyone will hit a wall. Like me for example, I've been simracing for 22 years now (!). When I first started playing GT1 I couldn't even pass the license tests on bronze. But I just kept practicing. Back in the first GT Academy in 2010 I was 3.5 seconds off the top time. Kept practicing. Now in FIA races quali I'm usually within 2 seconds or so of the top driver in top split. So it took me 10 years to gain just 1.5 seconds and I'm probably close to my limit now. Just to give you an idea of the amount of effort it takes to "git gud" (and sometimes, your best is still not good enough, that's just life). You just need to decide when is the reward payoff not worth the effort anymore and only you can answer that.

That's just the speed side of things mind you. In racing there's also racecraft, strategy and mental strength, but that just comes with experience doing it yourself and watching lots of motorsport (e.g. I've been watching F1 since 2000). Then there's the marginal gains side of things, e.g. in GT Sport learning to optimise brake balance every corner, optimising fuel map in fuel limited races, but those will only gain you tenths on top of what you already have. The basics is where the money is.

Just my 2 cents ;)
 
OP, if you want to get faster, really the only thing I can recommend you do is practice. A lot. You may think 2500 km at the same track in the same car is a lot, but it's really not much compared to what I'm sure the top drivers have done to get to where they are. Here's a pretty cool example of how hard the top drivers work. Take a look at the graphs. Round 3 of GT Academy was a week-long time trial taking the combined lap times of two track; one was Indy Road Course and the other was some course creator track no one had seen before. The first couple of days were spent learning the course creator track, but you can see after that, it took four or five days to drop the combined time by half a second. I was playing probably 8 hours a day at least back then hoping to shave a hundredth or two off my time by the end of a session. Some people considered me an alien back when I played GT, but it's not like I turned the game on and was the fastest out there. I literally spent thousands of hours driving, most of that doing time trials. Grinding day in and day out for hundredths or thousandths of a second helps build consistency, and that provides a solid base to experiment off of for finding more time.

It's good that you know the areas you can approve, because that means you have areas you can target. But the first thing you have to target is consistency. You need to be able to put the car in the same place lap after lap after lap before you can start making changes and seeing if they help or hurt.
If you want to get better at trail braking, you have to move out of your comfort zone and start braking later than you normally do and stay on the brakes into the corner longer than you normally do. Don't take huge leaps, do it inch by inch if you need to.
Same with getting on the throttle earlier. Pick out where you normally get on the throttle and make an effort to get on it earlier, even if it's a thousandth of a second earlier. You might find you need to change up your lines if you want to get on the gas earlier, and that's when having a consistent base will help you in knowing if the changes you make are actually helping your lap times.
Controlling the car better takes practice; there's no secret. Unless you're right foot braking instead of left foot braking and don't know you can use the throttle while braking to balance the car. In that case, that's the secret.
Slow corners are tricky because there can be multiple lines that work. The fast drivers have driven enough that they know what will work based on the track or the car or even the balance of the car. If you're not at that level, you have to experiment. And once again, having a solid base is crucial in order to compare, for example, if the better exit you get from using a late apex and sacrificing the entry is worth a gain in lap time.

I truly think the only way to improve is to drive more, and to drive with a purpose. You have to aim for consistency, first and foremost, and after that you should focus on improving on your weaknesses by pushing your boundaries. Set goals of improving your time every practice session, even if it's just a thousandth of a second. Those thousandths add up.
 
Havent read everything here, but i throw my own gut feel here. Im also a mid A driver WHEN I PRACTICE A LOT - if i go to dailies unprepared im back to dr B in notime. The rare occasions I take my time and hit the say 300-500 of EMEA, I find myself turning in earlier i would. Meaning if you keep overshooting apex, try aiming under the apex. Also try to find a way to apply power earlier. I find my biggest difference to top drivers is the timing of input - mostly im too late.

This applies to quali only. Racecraft is a completely different game than just fast drivingline..
 
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Fieryburst
This is an interesting thread with many very valid and useful points, most of all I need to get into your mindset, and I need to stop looking at the top ten times that I can't hope to get near (maybe PD should add some charts of laps from mere mortals like us!). I'm in the same boat as you in that I only get a few hours a week on GTS and so should be realistic about my prospects. I should gain satisfaction from the fact I have won a few races and managed a pole position or two which has upped my DR to C, I shall now build on that.
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You are on to something! If we could have at least leaderboards based on DR level, it would be better to use them as reference (like for ghosts) while we are improving.

To the ones that participated in this thread, thank you! Got some very useful tips and thinks that I will try to work on in the near future
 
Hi,
Very interesting thread indeed, thanks for all the video and book references.
I dont know if it's been mentionned before but what I like to do to improve is compare my replay and one of the top times replay side by side at 0.25 speed. (I upload both replay to YouTube and do it on the computer)
It takes some time, one turn at a time, but (for me at least) it makes it easier to highlight where I'm loosing time and why. For example, in last week's TT with the Aston Martin on Nurb GP, I was 0.4 off in the first sector, I thought I was braking too early in the hairpin, but actually it was fine, I was going way too slow into turn 2, and releasing the throttle too much out of turn 3. It's an interesting exercise imo, I would not have seen that at normal speed.
 
@DoctorNuu Have you tried the Lewis DLC? If you can learn to match Lewis, that gets you to around where you're looking to be, a second slower than the world #1 around Interlagos. I've just been having a go, and I'm sure I'll get there eventually, I'm just a few hundredths off now. Having said that, I suspect the aliens haven't spent THAT much time on it, as I wouldn't normally expect to only be ~1.1% slower than the world #1 in Gr.3.

The biggest thing it has reminded me about is how you need to use the superpowers that cars have in GTS to turn and brake at the same time. You have to brake later, and turn while still braking maximally, in a way that I think is unique amongst driving games.
 
breeminator
@DoctorNuu Have you tried the Lewis DLC? If you can learn to match Lewis, that gets you to around where you're looking to be, a second slower than the world #1 around Interlagos. I've just been having a go, and I'm sure I'll get there eventually, I'm just a few hundredths off now. Having said that, I suspect the aliens haven't spent THAT much time on it, as I wouldn't normally expect to only be ~1.1% slower than the world #1 in Gr.3.

The biggest thing it has reminded me about is how you need to use the superpowers that cars have in GTS to turn and brake at the same time. You have to brake later, and turn while still braking maximally, in a way that I think is unique amongst driving games.
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One thing most don’t know is that abs weak gives you more control and requires a more proper technique.
Like on the ring Porsche race we had recently I chose weak because default caused excessive understeer for me.
Abs default absolutely allows what you say because of the way the game is set. Default ‘helps’ you be able to turn in at max brake...
If you can handle weak, then default in most situations feels like understeer central.
It’s two different techniques required. Weak requires more partial input control default is much more forgiving, because you’re not really managing the cars balance 1-1. The games helping you.
Default is the better choice though imo for most online races because of the dirty air slipstream tire wear consistency etc.
It’s really worth playing around with. Some cars are far better to drive on weak, then again if you make the mistakes you will pay for it...
Edit weak setting is much more like low or factory in ac on gt cars
 
Groundfish
One thing most don’t know is that abs weak gives you more control and requires a more proper technique.
Like on the ring Porsche race we had recently I chose weak because default caused excessive understeer for me.
Abs default absolutely allows what you say because of the way the game is set. Default ‘helps’ you be able to turn in at max brake...
If you can handle weak, then default in most situations feels like understeer central.
It’s two different techniques required. Weak requires more partial input control default is much more forgiving, because you’re not really managing the cars balance 1-1. The games helping you.
Default is the better choice though imo for most online races because of the dirty air slipstream tire wear consistency etc.
It’s really worth playing around with. Some cars are far better to drive on weak, then again if you make the mistakes you will pay for it...
Edit weak setting is much more like low or factory in ac on gt cars
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Hmmm I’ll have to play with ABS a bit, as my braking is my new focal point for improvement, at the moment.

REALLY been working on not fully braking on EVERY turn, then during a race, kinda goes out the window for me until I’m more practiced with it.

One big problem for me with braking is - trail braking, with a controller. It’s just really unintuitive, for me anyway. I’m a long way off from getting a wheel and pedals, and am really struggling with this, and feel like a foot on a pedal would - trail braking would be instinctual vs. something I struggle with. (Or just a poor excuse lol )
 
The crucial question still remains unanswered:
Which 'deliberate' practices are there?

Yes, mimicking Top drivers is one. Mastering a circuit or car is the other.
Both important, but I doubt that this gets you much faster/better in general - only for the specific combo.

There should be specific practices/drills/exercises that help you in a more general sense.
That's still my million dollar question.
 
DoctorNuu
The crucial question still remains unanswered:
Which 'deliberate' practices are there?

Yes, mimicking Top drivers is one. Mastering a circuit or car is the other.
Both important, but I doubt that this gets you much faster/better in general - only for the specific combo.

There should be specific practices/drills/exercises that help you in a more general sense.
That's still my million dollar question.
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I thought you found your answer?

DoctorNuu
I think I finally found my answer. Am I going to share it? Maybe.
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Aaaaah, guys....
The short answer is: I have to find specific practices and do them.
The obvious follow-up is: Which ones? (Besides mimicry)
 
Well, what working for me is pretty simple.

Always 100% focus on clean racing.

Focus on the next skill you struggle with, and practice practice practice till it’s muscle memory, then on the the next. Whatever it is. Brake control, throttle, trail braking, corner speed - whatever

and keep reading on these forums and researching race craft.

Don’t think there’s a simple.... solve all answer.
 
DoctorNuu
The crucial question still remains unanswered:
Which 'deliberate' practices are there?
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Campaign Mode, Circuit Experience, Missions and GT League. Seems to work for 95% of players.

If you need more, maybe consider paying for one-on-one lessons?
 
You have to envision what constitutes a perfect lap?
On a straight brake straight then wind in steering while trailing off brake steering max turn at apex
Blend throttle in as car unwinds to full asap.
No hesitation or adjustment involved.
Basically trail braking is big because you brake straight then as you begin turning the tires 100 percent shifts from longitudinal to lateral.
Same on exit back from lateral to longitudinal.
All this while using every inch of track on exit in most cases.
So if you are left foot braking (I don’t)
You full brake wheel straight as you turn wheel more you release brake more.
Apex wheel is wound all the way.
As you unwind wheel you blend in throttle.
All this with tires at limit with the car as level as possible and a bit of slip angle.
I’d practice it in the circuit experience find a turn you like and do it over and over.
Brake wind in wheel while smoothly releasing brake to apex.
At apex steering angle is maxed
Then smoothly add throttle as you unwind.

Easy!!

Lmao

All this must be done in an optimal line with tires maxed out 100 percent of time.
If tires aren’t maxed out more speed is possible...
 
Basically it comes down to focused practice, it doesn’t really matter what the combos are, just make sure they vary and aren’t all in the same type of car. In general though, the harder the combo, the better it is for practice. The main focus points should be, nailing braking points, working on trail braking, and throttle control on exits. Then you can start to fine tune things, how late can you brake, and how much speed can you carry into an apex without hindering your exit, or finding out which corners need to be late apexes or early apexes. Or on back to back corners/chicanes, is it better to come in hot on the first part, or sacrifice some speed on entry to get a better exit. Chasing your own ghost will be best for these things because you can directly compare which methods work best for you by comparing it to your ghost. Once you get into this, it’s just a matter of seat time and letting it all sink in as you learn bit by bit, speed won’t come overnight, it takes a looong time to build it up. Example, I’m over 200,000 km into GT Sport now, I was running 3-4 hours a day for a long time and sometimes 10-12 hours a day on weekends while I was trying to find more speed. Basically there is no magic bullet, it takes a lot of hard work and dedication. Good Luck on your journey! :)

One other thing, befriend as many fast players as you can, and ask them as many questions as you can, there is no such thing as having too much info. But, the main point of having faster friends is so that you’re never at the top of you friends list, this will drive you to try and get to the top. If you can easily top your friends list you will be less motivated to keep working. ;)
 
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