how to manage oversteer?

*The reason I posted this in this forum was the fact that I have this problem in numerous video games, as well as in real life. :)

While the title pretty much sums up what I'm asking, I'm curious as to how I can improve on this. In terms of entrys into apexes and such in racing, and driving at low speeds, I can manage and find oversteer to be comfortable, but when it comes to added gas to the pedal at a steady rate, exiting corners, and managing countersteer I am typically confounded to doing so in a quick and effective manner, unlike understeer. So is there any methods to handling the corners while in oversteer at a good speed or modifying the car so that the car will understeer a lot more often?
 
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Go slower.

If you're not oversteering or understeering slightly through a corner, you're not going fast enough. If you're oversteering or understeering too much, you're going too fast. :D

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But seriously, less throttle on corner exits helps, but then this is likely more a problem for you in video games than in real life, unless your track whip has over 400 horses and not much grip. Generally you want to be straightened out as much as possible before you add gas.

There's not much practical I can tell you except practice, practice, practice. Get on the brakes later and later (but always straight, though with ABS, it's not such an issue as without) into the corner and on the gas earlier and earlier until the car starts to tell you otherwise.

Typically, in real life, you'll get understeer long before you get oversteer unless you're a total muppet on the gas pedal.
 
I don't think its got too much to do with hp niky. I can get my 144 hp (at the rear wheels) R32 GTS Skyline sideways around corners (not long sweeping ones obviously, unless i'm going well over the speed limit i guess) just by using more accelleration.

Then again, the car is very stiff (Low King Springs, KYB shocks all round, adjustable Whiteline swaybars front & rear, Floor pan body brace behind front seats, Nolathane suspension bushes) so that probably has a part to play too. ;)

Its almost the same for my GTS-4, but the front wheels usually start pulling and reducing the tendancy to get too big a slide.

But yeah, i haven't really oversteered that much in real life, apart from grasskhana's etc. Which would probably be the best way to get used to countersteering/throttle control etc as it puts less strain on your car. Not to mention it is a HUGE amount of fun, especially if your car has an LSD.
 
At lower speeds, it's easy to get oversteer, but in long sweepers and high speed corners, you're usually at the tires' limits and understeering... on a stock car. Personally, I prefer to lean a bit on the understeer through faster corners as that's a lot more predictable than trying to balance it out by inducing oversteer via the throttle or brakes.
 
The second I saw the name of this thread I immediately knew the mass of misleading/wrong information that would be thrown here. *sigh*



Go slower.

If you're not oversteering or understeering slightly through a corner, you're not going fast enough. If you're oversteering or understeering too much, you're going too fast. :D

Not at all. One can easily make a car oversteer or understeer without being anywhere near the theoretical speed for that particular corner.


But seriously, less throttle on corner exits helps, but then this is likely more a problem for you in video games than in real life, unless your track whip has over 400 horses and not much grip. Generally you want to be straightened out as much as possible before you add gas.

Nope. I could slide my Miata around on R888s all day with an almost stock, tired 1.6.

And no, you dont want to be straightened out as much as possible before you add gas. Your foot should be on the gas pedal immediately after it's off the brakes. The more you unwind the steering wheel out of the corner the more throttle you give it. Depending on the torque output of the engine (and some other variables) will determine how many fractions of a second your throttle input should be in advance compared to your steering unwind.

IDEALLY, there should be no time gap between letting go of the brakes and the initial "getting on the gas."



There's not much practical I can tell you except practice, practice, practice. Get on the brakes later and later (but always straight, though with ABS, it's not such an issue as without) into the corner and on the gas earlier and earlier until the car starts to tell you otherwise.

No, no, and no. Practice does not make perfect. Only Perfect practice makes perfect. If you practice making mistakes you will only get better at making mistakes.

Always in a straight line? What ever happened to trail braking? And if you get on the gas and the car "tells you otherwise" maybe you should try being a bit less sudden with the initial input and smoother with the pedal's follow-through/more consistent with the steering inputs as opposed to assuming you've reached the limit on how soon you can get on it which, remember, should be immediately after your foots off the brakes.


Typically, in real life, you'll get understeer long before you get oversteer unless you're a total muppet on the gas pedal.

Or unless you're driving at the limit.




They're awesome :)



At lower speeds, it's easy to get oversteer, but in long sweepers and high speed corners, you're usually at the tires' limits and understeering... on a stock car. Personally, I prefer to lean a bit on the understeer through faster corners as that's a lot more predictable than trying to balance it out by inducing oversteer via the throttle or brakes.

On the contrary!
In slow, sharp corners, the rear wheels track to the inside of the front wheels. The resultant force from the rear wheels will "push" the front wheels towards the outside (understeer.) Unless of course you'd overdo it with too much gas and end up in an oversteer situation.
This is why you see autocrossers doing everything in their power to make a car understeer less with massive rear roll bars and what not.

In long, fast sweepers the opposite happens. The rear wheels track outside the front and the resultant force from the rear wheels tends to push the rear axle "around" the front.

And by the way, you should ALWAYS be at the tires limit regardless of how fast or slow the corner is. Given, of course, you have enough torque from the engine to take you to those speeds.



So my say in this is, aside from answering your question in the above replies, adapt YOUR driving style to the car. Not the other way around. Cars don't have bad habits or bad days and they certainly don't make mistakes. Come to an understating of what the car is really doing and, more importantly, what YOU'RE really doing/making the car do. It is just too often that people are completely misinformed in regards to the dynamics of the car (let alone what changes to the system actually do) and can never seem to figure out what they're doing wrong. In most cases they simply blame things on the car.
Go read yourself some books. I highly recommend the Speed Secrets series as it is very easy to comprehend and is great with new drivers.
 
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Like Speed Junkie said, if you're barrelling into a high speed sweeper expecting the front wheels to give out first...buddy, you're in for a rude awakening.

A good way to learn how to deal with oversteer is to take a race go kart out on a local track and try to get it round as quickly as possible. Go karts have solid shaft rear axles - both rear wheels spin the same speed, all the time. If you're trying to push the kart through the pits or driving it slowly the damn thing won't turn because of the rear axle. But at speed, the chassis is designed to flex in a way that transfers all the weight to the outside rear wheel, often lifting the inside rear wheel off the ground. This solves the turning problem, but it introduces another problem, which is oversteer. You have to go fast enough to turn, but if you go a tiny bit faster the ass end slides out. So basically the goal is to go as fast as possible without spinning out. Eventually you get the hang of smooth steering inputs and lightening quick adjustments, and you get a feel for how the chassis slides around corners smooth as butter without bogging the engine or scrubbing off too much speed. It is a fine art.
 
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Like Speed Junkie said, if you're barrelling into a high speed sweeper expecting the front wheels to give out first...buddy, you're in for a rude awakening.

Luckily I knew that during my early days of driving. Not that it helped in more than one occasion :lol:


Also, driving a proper kart is one of the most effective ways to get good "track time" the things aren't very forgiving and will do everything you tell them to. Correct or not.
 
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Trail-braking is a good technique, but for beginners, straight-line braking first.

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At-the-limit... depends on the tires and the set-up. Most new cars are set up to understeer first, foremost and last, unless they're sports cars with a good rear LSD (as the Miata does). I like a set-up that understeers a little bit, though a car like the Miata, which is more neutral, is infinitely better.

I agree... you should ideally get on the throttle right after you're off the brakes, but there are constraints. Perhaps I should have said you shouldn't be all the way on the throttle until you've wound out the steering, sorry.

And yes, looking back on that, I realize I made a mistake with regards to what happens where. Yeah, you're going to get more push in a low speed corner than a high speed sweeper. D'oh. :dunce: Somehow managed to forget where I last drifted a Fit...
 
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Just drive MR cars for a while, and then everything else will just understeer. At least in comparison. That is how I did it.

Of course, spinning out was no unheard of.

And push in a low speed corner? PFFT, god made torque and LSD for a reason.
 
Trail-braking is a good technique, but for beginners, straight-line braking first.

No sense in programming something in ones subconscious only to have to get rid of it later. Getting rid of bad habits is very difficult since they are executed or "processed" at a subconscious level so simply "trying" would not work. This is why I think it would be better to start trail braking at speeds under the limit and then simply add more and more speed/brake later and later as you become more comfortable.

Also, my 1.6 had an open diff at the time.



And push in a low speed corner? PFFT, god made torque and LSD for a reason.

Depends allot on the type of LSD. Helicals are great for sharp, low speed corners because they send power to the outside wheel which helps with a yaw effect. On the other hand, clutch-type LSDs work by trying to reduce the wheel speed difference during cornering. This simply adds to the resultant force pushing the front end out (since the inside driven wheel is now assisting in this.) This of course is not as bad as it sounds and can be accounted for with a change in driving style and slight alignment changes.
 
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Too often I get beginners going out on a track a couple times then coming back and making a laundry list of "change this, change that." Don't fine tune the car's handling too much until you really get comfortable driving.

Depends on the car really. I've noticed that BMW's have a wonderful method for dealing with oversteer.

Step 1: Oversteer begins
Step 2: Let go of wheel
Step 3: Stab throttle
Step 4: Fixed

General tips:
-Smooth on the wheel and throttle. Push the pedal like toothpaste out of corners and listen to your rear tires.
-The car will want to correct itself. Let the wheel do most of the turning by itself. Stop the rotation when the front wheels are pointed in the direction you want to go, then let the rear return to you and unwind the steering wheel in the other direction.
-Countersteering too quickly turns oversteer into a 4 wheel slide. You can have understeer when you're oversteering

Want practice? Try dirt or wet pavement in an empty lot.

EDIT: Pump up your tires to near the max psi. It makes them slip a bit before they let go. Makes it easier to see it coming.
 
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Zenith013
Oversteer

You seem to be talking more about drifting/continuing the slide. In this case I'd like to add an important part for the OP: stay on the throttle. It may seem a bit counter intuitive at first thought but letting go of the throttle will practically be like using the ebrake. It is definitely hard to mentally reprogram a habit you've developed during years of driving of stepping of the gas whenever something "bad" happens.

Also lol at them changing their setups.
 
I'm not against modifying your car to your driving style. When you learn how the particular car is acting, try playing with the tire pressure and suspension geometry to suit your driving style. Also You haven't mentioned what layout your particular problem car has? FWD tips does not necessary apply to RWD car and vice versa.
 
I'm not against modifying your car to your driving style..

For a beginner, yes. I have already explained why.



When you learn how the particular car is acting, try playing with the tire pressure and suspension geometry to suit your driving style.

Even when your driving style is potentially full of bad habits and mistakes? Which is the case for beginners.



Also You haven't mentioned what layout your particular problem car has? FWD tips does not necessary apply to RWD car and vice versa.

I for one, have been referring to RWD the whole time which some parts may also be true for RWD but certainly not for FWD. At least not the majority of it.
 
For a beginner, yes. I have already explained why.

I agree with you, but somebody asking about applying techniques to reduce understeer or oversteer is not so much of a beginner, although if he was skilled more he wouldn't probably ask that questions.



Even when your driving style is potentially full of bad habits and mistakes? Which is the case for beginners.

Yes, when you learn to drive the car as it is on the limit. At least I was referring to this stage. You got me wrong probably, my fault.

Also back on the subject. It may sounds funny, but you can learn something about general setup of the car in racing simulators like GT4/5 or LFS, especially if you aren't financially capable to race your car on the track.
 
Speed Secrets is not bad and I certainly enjoyed my copy, however this....

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0837602262/?tag=gtplanet-20


...is a much better bet.

👍


Scaff

It doesn't seem like a bad book but I doubt it's better than Speed Secrets. For one, Lopez' resume mainly consists of Skip Barber-related driving/instruction, from a motorsports point of view. Bentley has been a successful driver in Prototypes, GT, and even CART. That's just his motorsports career. After retiring he pretty much dedicated himself to the coaching and development of the mental aspect of driving. Which anyone who knows anything about racing knows is 90 percent of it. This is also what Going Faster doesn't have.
As a side note, I have watched the Going Faster DVD (also written by Carl Lopez') and it wasn't all that great at all.
Also remember that Speed Secrets is a series of three books although I'm sure either of them still contains more valuable information to the driver than the Skip Barber book.


I agree with you, but somebody asking about applying techniques to reduce understeer or oversteer is not so much of a beginner, although if he was skilled more he wouldn't probably ask that questions.

I thought of "beginner" in the sense that he is a beginner to the intricacies of driving (would already know what over/understeer is.) Not a beginner to driving in general.



Yes, when you learn to drive the car as it is on the limit. At least I was referring to this stage. You got me wrong probably, my fault.

If you are a beginner, than you cannot drive a car at the limit. You cannot "learn to drive a car at the limit" before already having those skills instilled in your brain.
So, in the case of a beginner, his/her driving style will be "potentially full of bad habits and mistakes."
Also, squeaking the tires here and there is not driving at the "limit."



Also back on the subject. It may sounds funny, but you can learn something about general setup of the car in racing simulators like GT4/5 or LFS, especially if you aren't financially capable to race your car on the track.

You can, as a general rule of thumb. More having to do with knowing what the terms mean but not as much with how they affect the car in the real world.
To me it helped with exposing what it meant to "tune" a car; testing and trying new things (back when I first got GT2, then 3.)
 
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It doesn't seem like a bad book but I doubt it's better than Speed Secrets. For one, Lopez' resume mainly consists of Skip Barber-related driving/instruction, from a motorsports point of view. Bentley has been a successful driver in Prototypes, GT, and even Cart. That's just his motorsports career. After retiring he pretty much dedicated himself to the coaching and development of the mental aspect of driving. Which anyone who knows anything about racing knows is 90 percent of it. This is also what Going Faster doesn't have.
As a side note, I have watched the Going Faster DVD (also written by Carl Lopez') and it wasn't all that great at all.
Also remember that Speed Secrets is a series of three books although I'm sure either of them still contains more valuable information to the driver than the Skip Barber book.
Being the owner of the Bentley series of books and the Skip Barber book I would have to disagree.

Going Faster contains more in its single tome than the Bentley series do combined and is not written by Lopez alone, but rather is the combined work of the entire team of instructors at the Skip Barber school (the ten principal instructors all have championship winning experience at many levels of motorsport across the globe). That alone ensures that often differing opinions on the application of techniques are covered and discussed.

It also goes into significantly more detail in regard to the forces behind the dynamics of car control, set-up and reading the track. The Bentley series does go into the psychology of driving in a more detail, however a lot of that is itself is tailored from sports psychology and coaching techniques. In every other area the Skip Barber book I have found to be more detailed.

Feel free to dismiss it if you will but in close on two decades of training vehicle dynamics and drivers in the motor industry it remains the most useful book I own, and I fail to see how having more information from credible sources is a bad thing


Scaff
 
My point is that, for a driver, a beginner at that, Speed Secrets has the information and techniques required to develop your skills. One can say it builds the foundation to continue to improve. And, as anyone who has read these books and gone through the process of becoming a better driver would agree, their information is practically universal for any level of driving. Maybe it wont go into how to set up a car but it doesn't need to. It's a driver's book which specializes in the most important part of driving, the driver.
I will not dismiss Going Faster, I never said it was bad. Or that it is the only thing you should read (heck, read both.) But for a developing driver, (which should be every driver) Speed Secrets is a must have.
 
To the OP: Have you been to to a track day? Are you interested? Would you like to get in-car instruction and coaching while on track?
 
My point is that, for a driver, a beginner at that, Speed Secrets has the information and techniques required to develop your skills. One can say it builds the foundation to continue to improve. And, as anyone who has read these books and gone through the process of becoming a better driver would agree, their information is practically universal for any level of driving. Maybe it wont go into how to set up a car but it doesn't need to. It's a driver's book which specializes in the most important part of driving, the driver.
I will not dismiss Going Faster, I never said it was bad. Or that it is the only thing you should read (heck, read both.) But for a developing driver, (which should be every driver) Speed Secrets is a must have.

As does Going Faster and while I would quite agree with the sentiment that owning both is an ideal situation (as I said in my last post), your initial posting in regard to Going Faster came across as dismissing it, which is a strange thing to do for a title you have not (that I can tell) read.

Pick up a copy, you may very well be surprised.


Scaff
 
If you are a beginner, than you cannot drive a car at the limit. You cannot "learn to drive a car at the limit" before already having those skills instilled in your brain.
So, in the case of a beginner, his/her driving style will be "potentially full of bad habits and mistakes."
Also, squeaking the tires here and there is not driving at the "limit."

My tires never squeak, I drive 20 year old Pirellis.

About the skilled installed in your brain, I think you cannot learn to drive from the books. You need to have some instincts and reflexes in you.
 
To the OP: Have you been to to a track day? Are you interested? Would you like to get in-car instruction and coaching while on track?

I have been to a couple autocross events, but a track day not so much. That said, I'm very interested in going to track events, and I'd very much benefit from in-car instruction and coaching, especially at my somewhat tender age.

And to answer an earlier post, sim wise I drive a subaru impreza sti stock, offroad in dirt3/gt5, while in real life I have taken an 04 miata out to some autocross, just for the experience and the fun.
 
http://www.nasamidwest.com/
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewforum.php?f=45

Introduce your self and attend an event. You'll get one-on-one instruction, classroom download sessions and a helluva good time.

I would agree with this except for the fact that 90% of drivers in any kind of amateur race series/track days are not great at driving, even the instructors, which are frequently just other old guys who have simply been track driving for the past 30 years, without any other kind of real credentials.


Educate yourself FIRST, and then simply use track days to put what you've learned to use, do not rely on simply getting "seat time" as your vehicle control training. The key is not track time, the key is understanding the physics behind what you're doing and what the vehicle is doing. When you have that, track time becomes like the final piece to the puzzle, and then it all makes sense.
 
If you are reasonably good at, say, GT5, then get a mid-rear car and take it for spin around the top gear test track or someplace. I find that when driving an oversteer-prone car quickly one will automatically correct it. this is how I learned. If this doesn't work, then get a car prone to benign oversteer and practice as much as possible. I usually recommend the new Chevy Camaro. Once you can do it in a video game, I imagine it will be much easier in real life (though you will still have to practice).
 
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