How would you add a Gr.4 & Gr.3 car for the automakers that don't have 'em?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by MIE1992, Jun 22, 2018.

  1. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    I have just recently learned that the only requirement for the manufacturer's cup is an automaker's Gr.3 and Gr.4 car. However, not all automakers have this, even if we discount stuff like Fittipaldi or Zagato. So I think that the following automakers are the ones that could most likely have reasonable additions to their lineups insofar they could have cars for both Gr.3 and Gr.4:

    Alpine could have the newer A110 GT4 as a Gr.4 car, but I'm not as sure about what could be done for a Gr.3 car beyond just dressing up the new A110. I had two ideas, however. Either PD could wait until Alpine has a car that'd be better suited to it, or they could simply use the Alpine A110-50, which is a car that's quite similar to the Renault Sport RS01.

    For Bugatti, all they really need is a Gr.3 car since the Veyron Gr.4 is already around. Perhaps if/when the Chiron is brought to the game, a made-for-game Chiron Gr.3 could be added.

    Fiat is a bit funny, given that it was just introduced and with the 1960s 500F. But, depending on whether one would consider these following cars as Fiat cars vs. Abarth, I suppose the 500 Abarth Assetto Corse could make for a good Gr.4 or Gr.3 car. Meh, if you ask me, I think Abarth would be better for this overall versus Fiat, especially since there are other cars from across multiple eras - such as various historic race cars - that could be added for Abarth. Meanwhile, I think Fiat may be best as the label that has the older 500 and the late-2000s 500, and anything that's more performance-oriented in any notable regard would be better for Abarth.* However, I could see the Coupe that's already appeared in Gran Turismo make for a good base for a Gr.4 car. The newer Punto could be good, too.

    KTM is also a bit odd. I'd add the X-Bow Street since it'd be an N200 car to compliment the N300 X-Bow R. But that aside, I'd argue the most obvious potential addition is the X-Bow GT4. But for Gr.3, I'm really not sure, especially since KTM makes nothing else car-wise other than the X-Bow - at least AFAIK.

    * On a side note, what if various brands - namely in-house tuners/performance labels - could be merged together? Like within the Fiat page, you could also select Abarth, where you could pick from Abarth vehicles. Similarly, Lexus, Daihatsu, Gazoo, and TRD could be under Toyota's page, Nismo under Nissan, AMG (and the A45 AMG, SLS-AMG, AMG GT3, etc) under Mercedes-Benz, SVT under Ford, Quattro under Audi, and so on. However, I think this would be best for a future game rather than GT Sport as we see here. Also, on another note, I wonder if Mini could get a good Gr.4 car in the form of one of the newer, cup racing, JCW-tuned Minis?


    Hard mode: How would you specifically have as many real-world cars in both of these groups as possible?

    My thought would be to add the real-world GT4 cars, like for the BMW M4, but also keep the made-for-game Gr.4 cars as race mod options in a future game where the RM game mechanic returns. I would say the same regarding adding the Honda NSX GT3 to be alongside the Honda NSX Gr.3. Otherwise, here were my proposed additions for supplementary Gr.3 cars:

    Chevrolet - Corvette C7.R GTE
    Ford - GT LM GTE
    Honda - NSX GT3, CR-Z Super GT300
    Mazda - RX-7 FD Super GT300
    Subaru - BR-Z Super GT300, Impreza WRX STI Super GT300
    Toyota - Prius Super GT300, 86 Super GT300

    For Gr.4 cars, I wonder if other one-make series cars could work? I know Ferrari and Lamborghini have their respective one-make races, for example. And I think it says something - though I'm unsure exactly what - the only real-world racers in Gr.4 seem to be part of one-make series, the TT Cup and Cayman GT4 Clubsport.

    As for Citroen and Volkswagen, I don't think there's much of any option there. Though for the former, I would like to see made-for-game racers aside from the "GT by Citroen" racers; I could some of the newer cars with the "DS" label working in this regard, especially as a Gr.4 racer. For Volkswagen, I could totally see the XL Sport being outfitted as a Gr.3 racer, or maybe even a Stock Car Brasil racer. (On that note, I think SCB racers could have a lot of potential as Gr.2 cars if not Gr.3, alongside the often-suggested DTM - especially for non-German European automakers like Peugeot.)


    Finally, I'd love to see these new classes be formed, potentially in a future GT title:

    -As another thread had in mind, an "N-E" class could be good for electric road cars, especially since most of them seem to have roughly the same sort of power. I'm thinking stuff like the BMW i8, Nissan Leaf, electric-only variants of the Toyota Prius, but even stuff like electric-only variants of stuff like some Porsches, which IIRC are a thing, right? Worst-case scenario, there could be multiple N-E classes each with general BHP designations like the N-series has already. For example, N300-E, N600-E, etc.

    -A hillclimb/time attack class could be ideal for the Subaru Isle of Man WRX. Think of this as a tarmac-only version of Gr.B, and without the emphasis on modeling itself on the real-world Group B. However, I am unsure if the IoM TT WRX, the newer Volkswagen ID-R, and the Peugeot 208 T16 (the last of which has been confirmed) would be ideal matchups for each other. But, I do think there's something to be said that PD currently has right to Pikes Peak...

    -A "Gr.D" would be good for the multiple drifting cars I think we'll see by the end of GT Sport's updates - IIRC, a drifting 370Z is planned to be a companion to the drifting BR-Z. There are also many vehicles from the GT series that were used mostly for drifting, like the RX-7 FC with the BP Falken livery. Perhaps drift trials in general could return, too.

    -A "Gr.1 Classic" potentially could be good for both Ferrari 330 P4s that will be in-game by the time the 2012 Pebble Beach winner is added (each is a notably different chassis), but also the Jaguar XJ13, the Ford GT40 Mk.IV Race Car, the 1969 Ford GT40 Mk.I Race Car, the Alfa Romeo TZ2, Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupe, Chaparral 2D, and the Ferrari 250 GTO. The Ford GT40 Mk.I that's currently in GT Sport is indeed a road-going model, so I'd prefer it to say in N400 - especially if we ultimately get the 1969 Gulf-livery race car that's based on the same car, anyway.

    Any particular thoughts, @Alpha Cipher?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
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  2. OnyxMoneytron

    OnyxMoneytron Premium

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    Volvo as appeared in early GTS promotional videos. I guess they would’ve made the S60 Gr.3/4.
     
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  3. ARTAsean

    ARTAsean (Banned)

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    Gr.3 / Gr.4 Being the meat & potatoes of GTS, I feel as though they're well represented as of now.

    What I would instead like to see are retro race cars added to these classes, similar to how Group C was added to Gr.1 (desperately needing a BoP update by the way)

    I think for example a 90's Supra or 00's NSX GT500 would be so awesome and realistically competitive in Gr.3. Likewise, an early 00's MR-S or Silvia GT300 being added to Gr.4 would honestly make my life.

    I just want as few cars as possible added to Gr.X because honestly they'll never see the light of day in Sport Mode. And ever since I got the 91 wins trophy I really don't care about winning anymore - I'll gladly drive a 20 year old JGTC car that's a few seconds off the pace of everything else, just for the feels.
     
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  4. DaigoD

    DaigoD

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    ASL Garaiya :bowdown:
     
  5. vvise

    vvise

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    I find it a little strange the Ford GT is missing from the game and we have a Gr3 Mustang instead.
     
  6. ZGBox

    ZGBox

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    I know, right?
    It's very strange indeed, considering that Chevrolet (it's american rival) has the Corvette Gr3 that it's similar to the real counterpart.
    Back on topic, a really good candidate for Fiat can be a Gr.3 124 Abarth, since it's the most sport-oriented Fiat for sale.
    I really wish a Gr4 Coupé is in the game, especially if it's something similar to the RM in GT2 :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
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  7. ZGBox

    ZGBox

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    Whops, double post
     
  8. cleanLX

    cleanLX

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    Personally, I'm not interested in make-believe cars.
    The whole idea that PD runs data/diagnostics/scans on actual cars/racecars, then makes as close a model as possible for us to play/race within the virtual world is what draws me to the Gt series.
    Make-believe tracks... okay, as long as they are realistic in some order... I mean huge jumps/air-time and unreal camber have got to go... but at least the idea that the cars on these tracks are based as close to reality as possible is where it's at.
    All the make-believe and vision junk needs to go... I mean, a vision car has no laws... you could quite literally design sliding scale pivot points that defy reality to maintain perfect tire/wheel orientation geometry... or simply ignore physics all together.
    At least with real cars, that have been sampled/data-logged/diagnosed, I get the feeling there is some connection to the real world.
    I don't want a "fantasy" racing game.
    My .02
     
  9. Alpha Cipher

    Alpha Cipher

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    The Alpine A110-50 good be a good Gr. 3 car for Alpine as you suggested, going along with the new A110 GT4. For Fiat, I can see a Gr. 4 happening, but not Gr. 3. Who knows though, we have a Beetle in Gr. 3 :lol:
    I'm honestly not sure if the KTM X-Bow is suitable for Gr. 3. I dunno, it's just a personal feeling that it can't fit into that class because it's be really hard to fit aero parts on such a chassis

    I'd also love to see your suggestion of Gr. 3 cars come to GTS, especially the GT and the Prius. The latter would be very interesting since it employs a hybrid system

    There's a plethora of One-Make Series that'd make for decent Gr. 4 cars. The 458 Challenge could be a good alternative to the 458 Gr. 4.

    I'd also welcome more classes to the game, ala PCARS style. Although, I'd prefer that the electric vehicles stay in N-class. I can see why they could be separated (Massive torque, ideal power curve), but they also have disadvantages that would inherently balance them to the gas powered cars (heavy weight and low top speed).
    For hillclimb and time attack cars, they could either be diversified into more classes, or just have a certain group of cars occupy that one class. The thing with hillclimb/TA is that it's an artform of its own like racing and rallying, where one class isn't enough to justify all the cars that participate in it.
    Sport mode-wise, I honestly can't see the purpose of Gr. D, since they aren't really ideal for racing and all, and I think this is a problem, because they would be a massive help for drift lobbies that want to use only drift cars, but it gives PD even more reason not to make a class for them because they serve no purpose in Sport mode.
    And your Gr. 1 "Classic" is also a nice idea. At least with that we can race the 330 P4 and XJ13 BoP'd correctly, and with Sport mode. Like hillclimb/TA, they can diversify this class into Gr. 1 70s, 80s, etc. not only so that they can put the current Group C cars in their own class, but to also make classifying future legacy cars easier for them

    The only problem I see with this however is BoP, especially for putting in new Gr. 3/4 cars into the game. BoP is almost always good if you do it only with one try, even with BoP testers at hand. It will either be too slow (Audi VGT Gr. 1) or too fast (Supra). Real-world testing will always be needed for BoP, so this will be a big problem now that the FiA Championships are underway. People are also locked into one manufacturer as well as one car for a whole season, so real-world testing will also be compromised. Daily races can help this to a certain extent, but I'm thinking that the top players that can reliably output data for the BoP of these cars would be too busy with the Championship to do dailies. If PD can overcome this hurdle though it'd be great
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  10. CVPI93

    CVPI93 Premium

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    Alpine Group 4 = Alpine A110 GT4
    Real-Life HP: 266BHP (BoP 112% to 300BHP)
    Real-Life Weight: 2,314LB (BoP 98% to 2,250LB)
    [​IMG]

    KTM Group 4 = KTM X-Bow GT4
    Real-Life HP: 360BHP (BoP 91% to 325BHP)
    Real-Life Weight: 2,200LB (BoP 119% to 2,625LB)
    [​IMG]

    Daihatsu Group 4 = Daihatsu Copen RJ VGT Gr. 4
    Real-Life HP: 146BHP (Gr. 4 increased to 310BHP, BoP 99% to 305BHP)
    Real-Life Weight: 1,323LB (Gr. 4 increased to 1,475LB, BoP 155% *yikes!* to 2,300LB)
    [​IMG]

    That's all I got for now. I imagine the math is horribly off, but I was never good at math. :p
     
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  11. CLowndes888

    CLowndes888

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    We still need to have Bentley in this game. The GT3 car is a glaring omission to an otherwise diverse range of Group 3 cars. In addition, the Continental could be modified as a Group 4 car to fit in that class too. We also need a Group 4 Camaro because it's an actual thing in GT4. Then there's the issue of Bugatti. There's only 2 models which could be modified as Group 3 cars, and both have massive quad turbo W16's - an engine not used in any GT3 car. Then again, the removal of the 4 wheel drive system would shave off a lot of weight (let's just presume it takes 200 KG off the Group 4 Veyron, which would make the Group 3 variation weigh about 1440 KG). And we aren't done with the weight savings yet. The entire dash will be stripped and the interior will just have some roll bars and one seat. Removing all the luxury items would probably remove about 100 KG, making the car weigh 1340 KG. Which would be ideal for Group 3. Whether it's the Chiron or the Veyron I don't care; they're quite similar. Power would definitely be above 570 HP.
     
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  12. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    Wait, what?! I know Lotus appeared, (as well as what I can only describe as a Gr.4 Mazda Roadster ND) where did Volvo show up?

    For some automakers, there's not much option other than using made-for-game cars. (And that's still assuming everything involving licensing of real-world series' race cars would go smoothly for PD.) Besides, if you wanted to make complaints on fictional cars, you've missed that boat by at least 13 years when the Nike One appeared in Gran Turismo 4. These original cars, I'd say, give GT a further distinguished identity over other sim-racers. The same could be said of having slightly anachronistic car matchings, like Group C in Gr.1.

    You want all the fantasy stuff to go, then there's always Project CARS 2, iRacing, or Assetto Corsa. I wouldn't wish GT to blur into the crowd by removing these unique characteristics. Personally, I think it's become almost integral to GT's identity, especially when these VGT cars are designed by the actual automakers, let alone the ones that get real-world equivalents, like the Infiniti and Bugatti VGTs. That's before we get into stuff like the fictional LM race cars from Gran Turismo 3. Why do these particular "fictional" cars get so much flak when every other concept car that's been in a racing game gets a pass? Some drive-able concept cars in these games don't even have real official specs, and sometimes, not even an engine in their real-life equivalents. In fact, the flavor text on the S-FR Racing Concept states something almost exactly like this, where there were no official specs for the engine, but I don't see anyone whining about it.

    And besides all of that, I would at least compromise by allowing the option to create lobby races within certain classes where you can hand-pick which cars are permitted or not. That way, the "fictional" content that's probably had numerous man-hours put into it isn't entirely wasted by being deleted, while you can have your 100% ultra-immersive race.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
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  13. VXR

    VXR

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    Polyphony are so good at making original cars it would be a disservice for them not to. Say what you like about the Beetle but it's an interesting take on a set of rules, no matter how loose an interpretation it seems.
     
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  14. Macboyilija

    Macboyilija

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  15. Crazy Taylor

    Crazy Taylor

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    I only think that cars that actually fit the bill for the right group should be in that group. Cars like Bugatti don't fit in either group
     
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  16. cleanLX

    cleanLX

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    Great points.
    Your second paragraph blurs the lines of making your argument vs reinforcing mine.
    I do not offer that for arguments sake, simply for what it is. The pro's in one persons opinion are easily viewed a cons in an other's.
    An interesting dilemma for a game maker.
    I appreciate you taking the time to offer those perspectives... and while I still feel the same, you have opened my mind.
     
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  17. Crazy Taylor

    Crazy Taylor

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    Infiniti can also be added to the mix. Not sure that any of the old cars would be GR3/4 as none of the current lineup are not old enough.
     
  18. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    Infinities could do the Q60. There was a recent BTCC version that raced. Something like that would fit in Gr. 4.

    Chaparral- something that resembles the 2F mid-ship design. Could almost take cues from the new Brabham BT62.

    Shelby- use the Mustang

    Fittipaldi- a detuned version of the EF7

    MINI- Clubman VGT has the right ingredients; change it to fwd.

    Alpine - already mentioned

    Zagato- the Aston Martin Zagato comes to mind, but even that VGT could be set up as a Gr. 4

    Fiat- at some point, the new 124 Spider should be added to the game. I'd use that as a base for a Gr. 4 machine.

    KTM- already mentioned

    Daihatsu- they dabbled with a sports car similar to the MX-5. Something like this revisited. The size of the 4C should be fine.
    [​IMG]

    Suzuki- could probably transform the Kizashi into a touring car
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. VXR

    VXR

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    That Kisashi looks so good. Massively underrated looking car.
     
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  20. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    So much potential. Could have been a winner, had more people bought them.
     
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  21. Lebowski

    Lebowski

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    No more fantasy junk - plenty of real cars that could be included in both categories.
     
  22. MikeV27

    MikeV27

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    pontiac sunfire gr4
     
  23. CVPI93

    CVPI93 Premium

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    Fixed. :lol:
     
  24. TheNorfolkDad

    TheNorfolkDad Premium

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    I like the idea of a manufacturer having two different cars for Gr.3 & Gr.4, ie. Nissan 370Z & GT-R, Dodge Challenger & Viper, Lamborghini Aventador & Huracan...

    There’s lots of manufacturers that only have one car in both classes.
     
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  25. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    Assuming we get an S2000, a version like the Spoon S-Tai car could be a second Gr. 4 Honda. Keep in mind the 86 only starts out with 197hp and PD bumped it up 160hp w/o a turbo.
     
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  26. TonyJZX

    TonyJZX

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    I have no feelings for the Miata/MX5 however they could make a GR4 Fiat 124 Spider?

    I like the 124, its like Fiat made a decent spicy sandwich out of the Mazda white bread.
     
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  27. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    Isn't it under Abarth, though, and not Fiat?

    Anyway, I did have another idea lately. For the FIA races, it seems that the races are usually between Gr.3 and Gr.4 cars, right? What if more cars were added insofar that you could potentially have Gr.1, Gr.2, Gr.B, N-Series, etc. between the various automakers in a future season? I know that there are a ton of legitimate critiques of Group C cars being in Gr.1, as @Alpha Cipher has mentioned, but for the time being, it's the only way I can see some automakers such as Jaguar and Mercedes-Benz being in Gr.1. That is, unless we eventually see the LMP1 successor that the FIA discussed before this year's LM24 - and see racing versions of the Mercedes-AMG Project ONE, Jaguar C-X75, Toyota Gazoo SuperSports, etc. and assuming those exact cars would be homologated and produced, and that they'd fit into Gr.1 as we see now, and assuming Gr.1 wouldn't undergo a change itself in a future GT game with Sport Mode. Like maybe the Jaguar XJR-9 would be in Gr.1 in GT Sport, but in GT7 (which would likely include a successor to Sport Mode, as stated by Kaz), it could be in a separate group for older race cars, and it'd be replaced by a racing version of the C-X75 in Gr.1.

    But let's use Occam's Razor here, and just make guesses based on cars that are already around. Or at least revealed to the public. We know that some automakers just don't have the diversity in their cars to be eligible for more than a few classes, if at all, like Fiat (vs. Abarth), or Daihatsu. That said, we should analyze the current group of automakers you can sign with for the FIA Automaker's Series, and we could go from there regarding eligible cars in the future. We know that all that's needed at the moment is for an automaker to have both a Gr.3 and Gr.4 car. But hopefully, not only could the list of eligible automakers eventually increase with more Gr.3 and Gr.4 cars (e.g. the Alpine A110-50 for Gr.3), but maybe more groups other than Gr.3 & Gr.4 could be part of the championship in a future iteration if enough cars are added. Lamborghini, for example, may have an eligible Gr.1 car with the Countach QVX Group C race car, and potentially a Gr.2 car with the Diablo GT that raced in JGTC GT500 (and has appeared in the Gran Turismo series since GT3).
     
  28. Alpha Cipher

    Alpha Cipher

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    The main focus of the Manu Cup has been Gr. 3 and 4 from the start; I think it was more of PD's intention than a lack of Gr. 1 cars. The problem with having more classes in Manu Cup races though, setting aside my personal discomfort of Group C in Gr. 1, is BoP. If you've noticed, PD never really updates the BoP of Gr. 1 except for when they add new cars, and that's only to apply BoP the new car itself. The only time they balanced an existing car in Gr. 1 was in the Group C update where they nerfed the Peugot L750R by 11% on power for no reason. PD already has their hands full on Gr. 3/4 BoP so I think it would be an even more daunting task to add balancing Gr. 1 to the mix. The current field as it is right now is already very unbalanced, so they have to balance all the cars first, and then add the newer cars and then balance them again. It'll be a very meticulous task from PD, and I think if they did intend to add Gr. 1 to the Manu Cup, they would've done all of this in the development phase and not in the updates because it's simply too big of a task to do, even considering how generous PD is with patches and updates
     
  29. Hoopzah

    Hoopzah

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    Kind of like how the real world "Gr. 4" for Chevy is the WTC Chevy Cruze vs. the G4 Corvette.

    I do wish they were a bit more accurate when it came to the actual homologation..

    And to add to the OP the FIA stipulates that Homologated vehicles be used.. Polyphony can't just pick a car to turn into a bonafide GT racecar. Well. Besides the Citroen and Bugatti ^.^ However those manufacturers only have 1 class, and I assume that's why.

    That's a huge component to GT racing in general (and irl). It's also what prohibits new and or small manufacturers from competing in FIA regulated Motorsports.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  30. GodOfEurobeat

    GodOfEurobeat

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    They really should add more variety within manufacturers. Renault and BMW are the only brands i know so far that have two choices of car in Gr.3 and Gr.4 i believe. I'd like to see cars like the BRZ be turned into a Gr.3 Or Gr.4 or hell even a Gr.2 because i know that thing is currently racing in Super GT right now.