I feel GT6 will be a disappointment.

[mr_serious]

Citation please. Seriously. I know that a few Japanese studios have this kind of self-slavery attitude towards their work, but rarely mentioned so I can't even google one up. Maybe Dan Greenawalt had a secret suite made up at Redmond that accidentally left open during one developer showcase? Probably not. Artists? Writers? Why not let's drag devoted surgeons into this who are burning midnight oil to save a patient's life, because that's all the same thing, right?

I was a software engineer for 15 years mostly working in the chemical engineering & mobile phone sectors. I can tell you for a fact that insanely long hours & over-nighters are extremely common in the software industry, regardless of whether it is for a game or for a chemical processing simulator & optimiser.

So really it is nothing special for software developers to do this. It is accepted as part of the job.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I was a software engineer for 15 years mostly working in the chemical engineering & mobile phone sectors. I can tell you for a fact that insanely long hours & over-nighters are extremely common in the software industry, regardless of whether it is for a game or for a chemical processing simulator & optimiser.

So really it is nothing special for software developers to do this. It is accepted as part of the job.

I guess the larger point would be then that pointing out the PD does this and fans using this as a rallying point for how hard PD works at the game, really is just the industry standard and therefore nothing special in relative terms.

 

[Tenacious D]

These posts will all still be here tomorrow. Or you can duck out of debating Tornado's and SlipZtrEm's points, that's cool too.

Actually, these endless debates don't really result in any meaningful exchange of ideas. For instance, Slip will never see the Standard cars as anything but a crime against humanity, and those of us who like them as blithering idiots, so I think anytime they or possibly you have a bone to pick with one of my posts, I'll just reply, "You're right, you win, I'm sorry I offended you." Or just not respond at all.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Actually, these endless debates don't really result in any meaningful exchange of ideas. For instance, Slip will never see the Standard cars as anything but a crime against humanity, and those of us who like them as blithering idiots, so I think anytime they or possibly you have a bone to pick with one of my posts, I'll just reply, "You're right, you win, I'm sorry I offended you." Or just not respond at all.

Show me where I've said that - instead of making up insults to put in my mouth, especially as insulting those who share different opinions is something you have a habit of doing.

Your usual tactic is either the above, or trying to change the subject.

 

[MeanElf]

...you probably don't stalk my posts the way Slipztrem does...

I was looking for a 'Are you two old friends?' Frank Honey clip just after Slipztrem joined the fray but this'll have to do - it's right at the start:



Feeble, I know - but hopefully it'll lighten the mood.

 

[Tornado]

What the heck are you accusing me of now? I'm tired so I'm just going to you what you call a Mazda 6 which is extensively modified until it's no longer a street car.

It was never a street car, or had anything to do with it. It's a tube framed RWD racecar chassis taken almost directly out of the previous Mazda RX-8 tube framed race car, except this time with Mazda6-shaped carbon fiber body panels put on it and a vaguely Mazda6-ish engine instead of Mazda RX-8 ones and a vaguely RX-8-ish engine.

Now prior to this frankly bizarre series of posts, I'm used to people calling the Honda NSX race modified extensively with a lowered body on wide custom axles into a Super GT car with a Raybrig livery as "The Raybrig NSX." And a Supra similarly reworked with a Castrol livery as "The Castrol Supra." And that's always worked for everyone else in the universe. You call them whatever you want, I'm going to bed.

Everyone else in the universe isn't trying to directly link any of those cars to the road versions (which they similarly stopped being particularly relevant to after rule changes around 2003) to prove a point for how critical it is to have the road version included in a game.

Actually, these endless debates don't really result in any meaningful exchange of ideas. For instance, Slip will never see the Standard cars as anything but a crime against humanity, and those of us who like them as blithering idiots, so I think anytime they or possibly you have a bone to pick with one of my posts, I'll just reply, "You're right, you win, I'm sorry I offended you." Or just not respond at all.

You made a claim (the Mazda6 was such a widespread car in motorsports that it's a notable exclusion from Forza's car list). You put a half-assed attempt to support (a Google images link). It was pointed out that the link didn't actually support the claim (since it showed the exact same cars that you were told it would). Then you kept changing the subject to find a reason why the original statement was still true rather than admit that, no, it wasn't.


Though it's pretty interesting, since you just tried to get a dig in not 4 posts ago over this exact thing:

Yes dear, I stand corrected - strangely, this is something I never hear from you when I'm right.

 

[Tenacious D]

Okay Tor, I'll respond briefly, and this is it on the subject because I really have better things to do than argue forever online.

Forza will let you modify the heck out of street cars, to the point of almost race modding them as we can do in GT2. You can gut the car, you can add a steel tubed roll cage and tortion bars which stiffen the body up considerably, add racing suspensions and muffler and all kinds of not-street sensible or legal parts. At that point, I sincerely doubt you could call it a "road car" any more than the Castrol Supra, even though the chassis hasn't been widened and wider drive train installed. You certainly couldn't license the thing as a road car. Whatever that makes it to you, I have no clue nor do I care. Enjoy being right.

 

[MeanElf]

I guess the larger point would be then that pointing out the PD does this and fans using this as a rallying point for how hard PD works at the game, really is just the industry standard and therefore nothing special in relative terms.

Not so sure that it's being used as a rallying point, not as such. Personally, I use the observation to counter the grunts from those accusing PD of being lazy.

True, I wasn't aware that other industry devs did similar, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. To me that points out that any perceived problems could lie elsewhere, certainly if they're all spending weeks at the desk and yet so many games end up with issues. There again, it could all be the complex nature of software: Murphy's Law attributed to programming which gets them all in the end.

 

[Tornado]

Forza will let you modify the heck out of street cars, to the point of almost race modding them as we can do in GT2. You can gut the car, you can add a steel tubed roll cage and tortion bars which stiffen the body up considerably, add racing suspensions and muffler and all kinds of not-street sensible or legal parts. At that point, I sincerely doubt you could call it a "road car" any more than the Castrol Supra, even though the chassis hasn't been widened and wider drive train installed. You certainly couldn't license the thing as a road car. Whatever that makes it to you, I have no clue nor do I care.

That would still be a street car modified with a roll cage mounted to the body (and a roll cage isn't the same thing as a tube frame) and a bunch of aftermarket parts; as opposed to a completely bespoke race car with a purpose built chassis with the (non structural) body parts mounted to that.


Still curious what the Mazda6 GX has to do with what you said in the first place, since it is neither a staple of road racing (since there are only 3 of them and they just started racing this year) nor used extensively by mid level teams (since all three of the ones built are factory-backed efforts).

Enjoy being right.

I always do.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Not so sure that it's being used as a rallying point, not as such. Personally, I use the observation to counter the grunts from those accusing PD of being lazy.

True, I wasn't aware that other industry devs did similar, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. To me that points out that any perceived problems could lie elsewhere, certainly if they're all spending weeks at the desk and yet so many games end up with issues. There again, it could all be the complex nature of software: Murphy's Law attributed to programming which gets them all in the end.

I know exactly what PD's problem is, it's the "guru" effect. I worked for a guru for 4 years. Behind his back, everyone knew that he was stubborn and unwilling to change with a rapidly changing marketplace. New ideas were virtually verbotten. People were unwilling to question anything without being made to look stupid. Numbers and logic were foreign concepts. Customer feedback??...what's that?? Whatever the guru wanted he got and eventually drove them from top of the heap, being 10 times larger than their nearest competitor at one point, to bankruptcy in a few short years.

PD is not in that boat, but they do suffer from the "my stuff don't stink" kind of mentality. I can just hear my old boss saying now, "The problem with our sounds is they are too perfect" and there would be crickets in the board room. Luckily for 10,000,000 per release, Kaz gets enough right to make fans happy but those with a truly open mind see the potential for the game and are not completely happy with the results. With a guru in charge, the game will always follow his vision, good/bad or somewhere in between.

 

[MeanElf]

Interesting comparison JP - not sure of the veracity in this case, but I can see how the parallel could be drawn.

Interestingly, I consider myself to have an open mind also - one that accepts things as they are. It's not really my place to teach someone who has been doing a fine job so far, what he should be aiming at. For me, Kazunori san will either include the things people have asked for, or ignore them. If he sinks or swims, is his own affair and nothing to do with me.

True, we all have our own ways of appreciating the series, or we'd not be here, right now. I would hope that all of us with open minds would allow each other to co-exist therefore, because at the end of the day, it's simply not our baby.