Introducing the Tesla Model S

For those who haven't seen: Tesla scores 99/100 in Consumer Reports' recent test.

GTMail
Looks like Tesla is pulling a Aston Martin making both their models look exactly the same!
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It's a render by a private individual, not an official Tesla prototype. Something you'd have seen had you read the article ;) The same guy did a wagon version a few months back.

already has the disadvantage of being electric too.
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Explain how this works again? I'm not sure the Model S's ~5000 owners so far have found it much of a disadvantage...
 
Omnis
But the fact that it's a 4 door is what makes it awesome. Have you seen one on the road? It's massive. A Model S coupe makes as much sense as a Rolls Royce coupe.
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Lots of room and road presence in shapely coupe form? Makes sense to me.
 
A guy down my street owns a Model S. It looks even better in person. The only issue is that he leaves the car outside to charge. People can just come and unplug it.
 
NissanSkylineN1
A guy down my street owns a Model S. It looks even better in person. The only issue is that he leaves the car outside to charge. People can just come and unplug it.
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They can't. It locks into the car.
 
If I catch anyone doing that to my electric car, I'll make sure to ruin their day.

I know God talks about forgiveness, but I'm not God.
 
I'm honestly rather confused. Has Consumer Reports improved enough as a magazine in the past few years that we actually care how they rate cars now?
 
Tornado
I'm honestly rather confused. Has Consumer Reports improved enough as a magazine in the past few years that we actually care how they rate cars now?
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Well, they obviously did a good job on the review of the Model S ;)





...oh great, now Excel is screaming at me for using circular logic.
 
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Tornado
I'm honestly rather confused. Has Consumer Reports improved enough as a magazine in the past few years that we actually care how they rate cars now?
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I seem to remember that their 0-60 acceleration times are between 2 and 3 seconds slower than those of Car and Driver, Road and Track, Motor Trend, or any other good car magazine.
 
Beeblebrox237
I seem to remember that their 0-60 acceleration times are between 2 and 3 seconds slower than those of Car and Driver, Road and Track, Motor Trend, or any other good car magazine.
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Is it possible that they used a different spec of Model S?

I love the Model S, but there's 2 things that i'm a bit worried about. How will the car fare in resale value? I would imagine that it could command high prices even when used, but most other if not all of its competitors have a severe drop in price after a year or two.

Also, do the door handles have censors that can detect if someone's hand is in the way?
 
Giygas
Is it possible that they used a different spec of Model S?
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You misunderstood me, I think I meant that all of their times are slower by a significant margin. Or at least they were when I checked a few years ago.
 
Tornado
I'm honestly rather confused. Has Consumer Reports improved enough as a magazine in the past few years that we actually care how they rate cars now?
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I think the significance here is its rating in comparison to stuff you'd expect to be rated highly. Something other EVs they've tested haven't done particularly well so far.

Giygas
I love the Model S, but there's 2 things that i'm a bit worried about. How will the car fare in resale value? I would imagine that it could command high prices even when used, but most other if not all of its competitors have a severe drop in price after a year or two.

Also, do the door handles have censors that can detect if someone's hand is in the way?
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As far as I'm aware, Elon Musk is personally guaranteeing a future value for all Model S. Which is kind of an artificial way of doing it, but should reassure owners.

The other thing is that the Model S's price is presumably quite dependent on battery prices. As those come down, there's certainly room for movement in the car's price.

As for the door handles, I expect they'd have a pinch sensor a bit like an electric window. But since the handles are permanently open when the key-holder is near the car anyway, I can't seeing it being an issue.
 
All of these things are something the engineers have addressed, lol. They're paid to be thorough.

Anyway, since it's electric this Tesla is something you'd buy and likely keep forever. Only thing you'd need to replace is the infotainment/network hardware and battery tray as technology progresses so far as to warrant the upgrade.

edit: I'm pretty excited for these new discoveries and innovations with Li-S battery tech. You know, we could have power density increase by several orders of magnitude. Charge your car in two seconds with 1.21 jigawatts through a cord as big as your thigh. :lol:
 
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People would still find a way to complain about it, I'm sure. It's quite funny reading the comments on Model S reviews. People trying to pick faults in something without many actual faults...
 
Beeblebrox237
You misunderstood me, I think I meant that all of their times are slower by a significant margin. Or at least they were when I checked a few years ago.
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Everyone is slower than Car and Driver, who destroy drivetrains, use fully prepped tracks and SAE correct the hell out of everything.

Let's see C&D apply accurate SAE weather corrections to an electric... :lol:

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I still have doubts as to how much lower battery prices can go wtihout major breakthroughs in manufacturing processes (nanotech?)... More likely the price per kilowatt storage will remain pretty high for the next decade or so.

That said, you've got to give it to Musk. The Tesla Model S is a stunning achievement, especially from a company that many of us had written off as a vaporware-peddler all those years ago.
 
niky
I still have doubts as to how much lower battery prices can go wtihout major breakthroughs in manufacturing processes (nanotech?)... More likely the price per kilowatt storage will remain pretty high for the next decade or so.
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I'm thinking more economies of scale improvements than the cost of the tech coming down. If the Nissan Leaf sold in the same numbers as the Versa there's no way it'd cost what it does, even if the price per kW stayed the same.
 
I think the Leaf already benefits from economies of scale... hard to expect any lower.

Cellphones benefit from massive economies of scale, yet the price per kilowatt still isn't where we'd need it to be to make EVs cost competitive in the long run.

Batteries are like solar panels. We get some benefits from price-cuts due to stiff competition and a weak economy, but the fundamental price breakthrough everyone is waiting for isn't quite there, yet.

*Everyone meaning "non-greenies"... in special cases and with the right consumption or usage levels, prices are justifiable, already.

(Haven't looked at the prices for battery packs for the last few months, though)
 
niky
I think the Leaf already benefits from economies of scale... hard to expect any lower.
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Adding the American production line dropped the price a bit here in the US, and they made enough room for up-trim models. It won't be long until these cars will be able to compete directly with B-segment options.
 
YSSMAN
Adding the American production line dropped the price a bit here in the US, and they made enough room for up-trim models. It won't be long until these cars will be able to compete directly with B-segment options.
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That's the biggest inhibiting factor, the initial cost is just a bit too high in a lower end market car. It doesn't matter as much for the Model S because if you're buying a German luxury sedan in that size/segment you're going to be paying upwards of $70k anyway. Not sure what the US prices are (they're probably disgustingly lower), but for me it'd be hard to justify buying a Leaf right now when I could get a Maxima for a lower base price. I could have 3 base Versa's right now for the price of a Leaf :lol:

Honestly I think I see myself buying an electric car in my future, hopefully by the time I'm ready to buy a new car the prices have fallen to where it's more competitive with the Corollas of the world. Also would be awesome if there were some more options in the middle, right now it's tiny hatchback, big cushy sedan, or 2 seater sports car if you want a decent electric car.
 
YSSMAN
Adding the American production line dropped the price a bit here in the US, and they made enough room for up-trim models. It won't be long until these cars will be able to compete directly with B-segment options.
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Still quite a stretch between the Versa and the leaf. A 100% premium is nowhere near close to direct competition. The discounted price, plus incentives brings it to something like a mere 40% premium, which is something you could consider if you did a huge number of miles every year, but I was under the impression that the 7.5k tax rebate only applied until a certain number of vehicles were sold.

Still, if you live in the right place, that discount makes it a realistic alternative to the mainstream, but not all States and countries have the same incentives, and in the long run, such incentives cannot be maintained once (if) EVs become mainstream, especially not with the debate right now about the condition of the roads and the shortfalls in gasoline tax collections...
 
niky
Still, if you live in the right place, that discount makes it a realistic alternative to the mainstream, but not all States and countries have the same incentives, and in the long run, such incentives cannot be maintained once (if) EVs become mainstream, especially not with the debate right now about the condition of the roads and the shortfalls in gasoline tax collections...
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In California, those who play their cards right can get a Leaf for less than the price of a Prius. So the discounts are out there.

I don't really agree with the discounting policy though. The ideal state of affairs is to have EVs selling on merit. Take the discounts and tax breaks away from a Tesla Model S and I reckon sales would barely be different. Take them away from the Leaf and I'd be surprised if they sold half as many. You have to make a car that people actively want to buy, and so far there have been very few of those with electric drivetrains.

As for gas tax shortfalls, several states are already coming up with their own alternatives for EVs. Most owners I've talked to seem happy to pay for their share of the roads, though a lot of the taxes being discussed are disproportionately harsh on electric cars because those in power are looking for an easy way to fill the coffers.

This one is the fault of most dumb state governments anyway. Most have frozen gas taxes since the 1980s because no party wants to raise gas taxes if the opposition isn't doing, and they've been left with a huge shortfall because taxation hasn't kept pace with inflation.

It shows how artificial the price of fuel is and goes quite some distance to rubbishing the claims of people who say EVs are too heavily subsidised. Half the people who say that are sticking fuel effectively subsidised since the 1980s (just on a state level - not to mention other subsidies the industry gets) in their tanks. It does make me wonder how much more attractive EVs would look in comparison if they taxed fuel in line with inflation in these places.
 
Fuel taxes should be commensurate with everything else instead of tied to road infrastructure upkeep.

Given we now have the technology to do so, they should simply tax you per mile of (government-maintained) road driven. It's about the only fair way to go, privacy concerns be damned. It would be quite easy to develop a device tied into the car's ECU that records GPS and inertial data to show how many miles you've driven on public roads and to have it merely report gross distance on a dashboard display.
 
I don't want them tracking me. Plus, people would hax. It's easiest just to tax gas.
 
niky
Fuel taxes should be commensurate with everything else instead of tied to road infrastructure upkeep.

Given we now have the technology to do so, they should simply tax you per mile of (government-maintained) road driven. It's about the only fair way to go, privacy concerns be damned. It would be quite easy to develop a device tied into the car's ECU that records GPS and inertial data to show how many miles you've driven on public roads and to have it merely report gross distance on a dashboard display.
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Fuel taxes is a way to get money for road maintenance. But they can also be used to try and make people consume less fuel. Either by driving cars with lower fuel consumption or by driving cars with alternative fuels. You don't get that if you tax people per mile of driving.

Regarding the GPS, you don't actually need to track the position. All you need to do is to let the odometer run and have a simple =IF(GPS=Public Road;CountMileage;NoCount), and that would be all the system would record. Although I doubt they would build such a system in Microsoft Excel. But the logic is the same.
 
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niky
Fuel taxes should be commensurate with everything else instead of tied to road infrastructure upkeep.
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This is the problem we're apparently trying to address here in Michigan. Governor Snyder wants to be ahead of the curve on electric and plug-in vehicles, in his mind these owners are getting a "free ride" on our roads. I don't entirely disagree, but until they begin to make up a major segment of the market, it's a good way of potentially killing off sales by tacking on a gas tax before it's even in your driveway.
 

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