Is camber fixed? Discuss it here.
- Thread starter Johnnypenso
- 698 comments
- 49,173 views
- 8,642
- London
- GTP_Stotty
Now you're just trolling
I have no idea how fast a driver you are, but if you are consistent enough AND sensitive enough to feel a 0.01 change in toe in GT6, you should be winning the Academy easily.
If you can do the same in real life, why aren't you driving an F1 car?
Go test the Yellowbird as I did above... you certainly won't be driving out of many corners on full gas
Again, I ask if you actually drive the cars and settings you're posting here, or if you're just talking out of your backside?
- 2,643
- Finland
- OdeFinn
Go test the Yellowbird as I did above... you certainly won't be driving out of many corners on full gas
Again, I ask if you actually drive the cars and settings you're posting here, or if you're just talking out of your backside?
Draw a Line.
Test your line.
And yes to sensitivity.
Will post some suspension setup later, if you couldn't do tuning or testing at your self.
..you just might be person who says "checking floor" after carpet is pulled uder you.
Maybe I just pack my thoughts and leave this thread, there is enough information given for those who can and will use that ball between shoulders.
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- 8,381
- The Black Lodge
VR_Engineered
(Banned)
- 32
- New England
I can. Not sure how well a driver he is, but .01 toe changes can be felt. To boot, the more you shorten up the lock range on your wheel, the more you can feel that .01 toe change that a few of you seem to think is absurd. So, he is not alone. You can feel a .01 change in the spring rates. Same with tenth increments of camber and every other slider in the game. You might be changing one value by a small amount, but we have no idea how much it changes the entire equation. Not sure how you can argue with that, being that we actually don't know.Now you're just trolling
I have no idea how fast a driver you are, but if you are consistent enough AND sensitive enough to feel a 0.01 change in toe in GT6, you should be winning the Academy easily.
The amount of grip a car has at each wheel corner in GT6 is derived from a formula that applies all of the values in the setup screen. There's no other way in a physics based game. So, if you change one of the variables in the equation by however amount...it doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. We don't know how much that is changing the final amount of grip. It is not real life. Real life, you won't feel a change in toe like that. We are driving a calculator in GT6. Nothing more.
You can't sit there and tell someone that they don't feel something that is subjective lol.
- 8,642
- London
- GTP_Stotty
Sorry, but given the quality of available control devices, I don't believe anyone can feel a 0.5% change in toe (0.01 change with the range of +1.00 to -1.00), and I certainly don't believe anyone can feel a 0.01 change in spring rates as this is something like a 0.1% change
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Instead of talking about what you can feel, post a setup that can be tested. We've had more than enough talk about why camber works, let's see what you can do with a cambered setup. Post up a tune that works with camber and let it be tested.
VR_Engineered
(Banned)
- 32
- New England
What? What does that have to do with what I said, that you said to OdeFinn and what he said originally? You want to escort me right back to strictly arguing camber, because you're avoiding my point. Or I could just agree with someone else, without caring about your hostility. I suppose I could do that as well, yes.
You missed my point, though: you can feel changes that you make in the setup equation. IDK how each aspect changes things in comparison to real life, given that the tuning doesn't work correctly, but it does change something and that something can be felt. I'm merely agreeing with someone that you shot down and you are avoiding the fact that, sure it might only be .01 and .01 seems like a small number...by itself. We have no idea how .01 affects anything in the setup equation. Do you disagree with this?
Sorry, but given the quality of available control devices, I don't believe anyone can feel a 0.5% change in toe (0.01 change with the range of +1.00 to -1.00), and I certainly don't believe anyone can feel a 0.01 change in spring rates as this is something like a 0.1% change
See my last three sentences above. If you can disagree with that, you are actually making an assumption in reality. .01 is a small number, compared to a whole number and that's it. We simply don't know how much .01 toe changes the entire equation. It's pretty simple.
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- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Posted this awhile ago, anyone up to it can do some quick test at Tsukuba, there's a video there too for comparison ( real life pace ), simply lower the camber. I don't have to time to do tests still finding time to post my Yellowbird, with @Lewis_Hamilton_ giving useful data.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/is-camber-fixed-discuss-it-here.321270/page-5#post-10329846
still finding time to post my Yellowbird, with @Lewis_Hamilton_ giving useful data.https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/is-camber-fixed-discuss-it-here.321270/page-5#post-10329846
- 311
- GTP_jimantonic
My bags are already packed, just in case.
To be fair I've been reading this thread since it started, and have noticed a great number of legitimate theories, questions and answers either been ripped to bits, shot down or completely ignored by those who think their opinion is the only one that matters and everyone else is wrong.
I took the risk in posting my own theory that was similarly overshadowed by the ongoing 'soap opera' that this thread is becoming.
Don't tell me you haven't seen it yourself, seeing as you were thinking of closing the thread at one point due to the pointless 'flame war', or call it what you may, that was escalating.
- 8,642
- London
- GTP_Stotty
I don't disagree that a 0.01 adjustment to toe changes something in the physics engine, only that a human being is incapable of feeling the effect a change of that magnitude has.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
This is a thread about proving whether camber was changed in the last update. You can argue until the cows come home about whether you can feel a .01 change in toe or a 0.1 change in camber or anything else and no one can prove or disprove anything. We can prove however, whether camber works or not by posting tunes and testing them.
VR_Engineered
(Banned)
- 32
- New England
Guess we'll agree to disagree then @Stotty. I'm not going to tell you that you can feel it when you say you don't. I'll say it's possible that you can, but I'm not going to tell you what you do and don't feel.
I'm no here to argue. I'm telling you that you are wrong for telling someone they can't feel something. Especially when it is indeed possible, it will in fact be the case in a physics based game and impossible for it to not change something...unless toe is disabled. But, it is not.
We should be back on topic, but dont tell people to get back on topic to spare yourself and take attention away from what they said. You are being transparent in that respect.
You're right. That IS what the thread is about, huh? Guess I'm still trying to figure out why you responded to him in that case. Seems johnny will argue tangents until someone says something that he can't unravel and suddenly it is 'faux-moderator back on topic time'. Oops.
I'm no here to argue. I'm telling you that you are wrong for telling someone they can't feel something. Especially when it is indeed possible, it will in fact be the case in a physics based game and impossible for it to not change something...unless toe is disabled. But, it is not.
We should be back on topic, but dont tell people to get back on topic to spare yourself and take attention away from what they said. You are being transparent in that respect.
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- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
By him do you mean OdeFinn? And by, "responded to him" I assume you're referring to my comments I made to OdeFinn about being able to feel a .01 change in toe? Correct?
Can you please quote that for me? No you can't, because I didn't respond to OdeFinn about being able to feel toe.
You can talk about your theories until the cows come home Jack, but if you don't post a tune for others to test, your theories are nothing but wishful thinking, as they have always been in the past.
VR_Engineered
(Banned)
- 32
- New England
You responded to him at some point in the past two to four pages and you also responded directly to my post which addressed him being told he was wrong; that you cannot feel what he thinks. So, both of us I am now realizing.
I'm also not talking any theory. I'm actually leaving theory completely out of it lolol. I'm being pretty level headed and saying that it is stupid to claim someone either definitely can't or definitely can FEEL something.
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- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Wrong. I did not respond to OdeFinn at any point about being able to feel .01 change in toe. If you can prove me wrong use the quote function to do so. I also did not respond to you telling you it was wrong either so the entire tone of your post is incorrect. I said it can't be proven either way, let's get back on topic and start posting and testing tunes.
Prove your theory on the track, post a tune Jack.
VR_Engineered
(Banned)
- 32
- New England
I said you responded to him, dude. I didn't say it was about toe. It seems you are deriving the tone you want from my posts, jack. Why do you want me to post a tune? What does that have to do with anything I've said in regards to feeling toe?
What is this theory you speak of, jack? Are you a bot lol? Are you asking me to prove that you can feel toe changes?
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
The entirety of your contribution on this thread is about .01 toe, yet that's not what you were talking about, you were just talking about Odefinn's general responses from pages ago. I guess that's one of the benefits of being deliberately vague. Go troll somewhere else please.
As I already quite clearly stated, we can't prove or disprove what you or anyone else can feel or think you feel in the game.
VR_Engineered
(Banned)
- 32
- New England
Oh, yeah? So, you think you can prove whether camber works or not, given people on the internet posting tunes and testing them, hm? Individual people of different calibers...testing each others tunes and subjectively deciding whether it works or not. You are a riot, man.
I don't really care what my contribution was to your mind. My point was to highlight the fact that telling people they're wrong over something subjective is silly and I was successful in that. If you want to report my posts for being off topic, go ahead and do that.
You also can't prove that camber works through posting tunes and testing them. You're going to have people on the internet, of which you have no clue on their skill in reality for 99% of these internet people...go test tunes and take each others words for it.
You can go make a firm assumption if camber works, by asking people who are at the high end of seasonal time trials if they use xyz or not. All you guys do in this thread is argue. Either that or it is the same cronies agreeing with each other...that have agreed with each other on more or less everything since I have been lurking. Which has been over a year. I found ten to fifteen posts that are somewhat useful, but even then, they are not concrete points being made. That Motec is crap for proving whether camber works or not.
I will write something bold for you as well:
YOU WILL NEVER KNOW IF CAMBER WORKS, UNTIL WE CAN SEE MORE THAN A TEMP VALUE THAT DOESN'T SAY: THE WHOLE TIRE IS RED OR THE WHOLE TIRE IS LIGHT BLUE; THE WHOLE TIRE IS AT X TEMP. YOU CANNOT FIGURE OUT IF CAMBER WORKS WITH LAP TIMES AND A PROGRAM THAT WOULD BE NICE, IF THE GAME FED YOU USEFUL DATA.
So, sorry, jack. But, you can't prove that camber works. You can attempt to, but we won't know.
I don't really care what my contribution was to your mind. My point was to highlight the fact that telling people they're wrong over something subjective is silly and I was successful in that. If you want to report my posts for being off topic, go ahead and do that.
You also can't prove that camber works through posting tunes and testing them. You're going to have people on the internet, of which you have no clue on their skill in reality for 99% of these internet people...go test tunes and take each others words for it.
You can go make a firm assumption if camber works, by asking people who are at the high end of seasonal time trials if they use xyz or not. All you guys do in this thread is argue. Either that or it is the same cronies agreeing with each other...that have agreed with each other on more or less everything since I have been lurking. Which has been over a year. I found ten to fifteen posts that are somewhat useful, but even then, they are not concrete points being made. That Motec is crap for proving whether camber works or not.
I will write something bold for you as well:
YOU WILL NEVER KNOW IF CAMBER WORKS, UNTIL WE CAN SEE MORE THAN A TEMP VALUE THAT DOESN'T SAY: THE WHOLE TIRE IS RED OR THE WHOLE TIRE IS LIGHT BLUE; THE WHOLE TIRE IS AT X TEMP. YOU CANNOT FIGURE OUT IF CAMBER WORKS WITH LAP TIMES AND A PROGRAM THAT WOULD BE NICE, IF THE GAME FED YOU USEFUL DATA.
So, sorry, jack. But, you can't prove that camber works. You can attempt to, but we won't know.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
So if you believe you can't prove camber works, then why are you in this thread for anything other than flamebait and trolling?
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Wow, just wow 
We need mod here to clean things up, pronto.
We need mod here to clean things up, pronto.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
I'm trying...Wow, just wow
VR_Engineered
(Banned)
- 32
- New England
As I said, I responded because someone was told they couldn't feel something that is subjective and he was made to feel wrong. I also said I didn't come in to prove anything. Probably several times, too. But someone being made to feel wrong was not enticing to you. The only reason ridox is saying a mod needs to be rung, is because he didn't like the fact that I told him he has never played a legit sim, given his comment on FFb on PC sims in comparison.
IDK why some of you are so hostile. You waste no time to jump down peoples' throats the second they say something that you feel otherwise about.
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- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Now you're bringing up stuff from irrelevant conversations in other threads?Trolling is as trolling does and I think @Ridox2JZGTE can spot one as easily as the rest of us.
VR_Engineered
(Banned)
- 32
- New England
Bud do you know what trolling means lol? You've used it several times in this convo and it doesn't seem that you understand how to apply that word into conversation. Oh, wait, johnny. You need to get back on topic. You're not talking about camber, man. Sound familiar?
Not sure who "the rest of us" is, but ok matey.
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- 891
- Rio
- LeoStrop
Tests done online! The main intention of these tests, was to see if camber had any effect on tire consumption, and also see if i can benefit with negative camber.
Track: Autrodomo Nazionale Monza 80's
Car: Subaru Impreza WRX STi spec C ' 09 (hatch)
Wheel / Controller: DS3
Power: 367hp
Weight: 1319 kg
Performance Points: 500pp
Tires: Sports Hard
Suspension: (Height-Adjustable, Fully-Customisable Suspension)
Ride Height: F:121 / R:115
Spring Rate: 6.00 / 6.20
Dampers (Compression): 3 /6
Dampers (Extension): 4 /4
Anti-Roll Bars: 3 /5
Camber Angle (-): (0.0 ,0.6 ,1.0) all around
Toe Angle: 0.0 / 0.0
Brakes: Racing
Bias: 5 /6
Transmission: Standard
Limited Slip Differential: (Fully Customizable Mechanical Limited-Slip Differential)
Initial Torque: 5 /8
Acceleration Sensitivity: 9 /15
Braking Sensitivity: 5/ 7
Clutch & Flywheel: Twin Plate
Drive Shaft: Standard
Center Differential: Torque-Distributing Center Differential (26:74)
Oil Change: Yes
Power Limiter: 100%
Engine Tuning: Standard
Computer: Sports Computer
Exhaust: Sports Exhaust
Exhaust Manifold: Standard
Catalytic Converter: Standard
Intake Tuning: Standard
Turbo Kit: Stage: Normal
Nitrous Oxide (N2O): Standard
Body Rigidity Improvement: No
Weight Reduction: Stage 1
Hood: Standard
Windows: Standard
Ballast: 0
Ballast position: 0
Room Settings
Room Mode: Time Trial
Track: Autrodomo Nazionale Monza 80's
Weather: 0% / Fixed
Surface Water at Race Start : 0%
Time Limit : 30min
Penalty: None
Visible damage: Off
Tire Wear / Fuel Consumption : Very Fast
Limit Driving Options: Only ABS
Edit: Comparison with game sectors:
Edit: Comparison with game sectors:
Edit: Comparison with game sectors:
Tire Consumption:
Drop to 8 with 11min and 17sec
RL : Drop to 9 with 7min and 21sec RR : Drop to 9 with 12min and 39sec
Drop to 8 with 11min
RL : Drop to 9 with 7min and 17sec RR : Drop to 9 with 12min
Drop to 8 with 11min and 09sec
RL : Drop to 9 with 7min and 22sec RR : Drop to 9 with 11min and 36sec
The car was good with 0.0 camber, but it felt complete with 0.6 all around, 1.0 felt like too much. The car was more responsive with 0.0 camber, but when all the weight transferred to the tires, 0.6 did a better job maintaining the grip.
1.0 of camber had a little more push, but was slightly better in some points, compared to 0.0.
In regard to tire consumption, i think camber has almost no effect on it, the tires drop almost at the same time, taking away the RR, which was the least abused tire.
As always, look at the data and take your own conclusion.
PS: Ignore out-lap and in-lap on the comparison, it clearly have some bugs.
Track: Autrodomo Nazionale Monza 80's
Car: Subaru Impreza WRX STi spec C ' 09 (hatch)
Wheel / Controller: DS3
Power: 367hp
Weight: 1319 kg
Performance Points: 500pp
Tires: Sports Hard
Suspension: (Height-Adjustable, Fully-Customisable Suspension)
Ride Height: F:121 / R:115
Spring Rate: 6.00 / 6.20
Dampers (Compression): 3 /6
Dampers (Extension): 4 /4
Anti-Roll Bars: 3 /5
Camber Angle (-): (0.0 ,0.6 ,1.0) all around
Toe Angle: 0.0 / 0.0
Brakes: Racing
Bias: 5 /6
Transmission: Standard
Limited Slip Differential: (Fully Customizable Mechanical Limited-Slip Differential)
Initial Torque: 5 /8
Acceleration Sensitivity: 9 /15
Braking Sensitivity: 5/ 7
Clutch & Flywheel: Twin Plate
Drive Shaft: Standard
Center Differential: Torque-Distributing Center Differential (26:74)
Oil Change: Yes
Power Limiter: 100%
Engine Tuning: Standard
Computer: Sports Computer
Exhaust: Sports Exhaust
Exhaust Manifold: Standard
Catalytic Converter: Standard
Intake Tuning: Standard
Turbo Kit: Stage: Normal
Nitrous Oxide (N2O): Standard
Body Rigidity Improvement: No
Weight Reduction: Stage 1
Hood: Standard
Windows: Standard
Ballast: 0
Ballast position: 0
Room Settings
Room Mode: Time Trial
Track: Autrodomo Nazionale Monza 80's
Weather: 0% / Fixed
Surface Water at Race Start : 0%
Time Limit : 30min
Penalty: None
Visible damage: Off
Tire Wear / Fuel Consumption : Very Fast
Limit Driving Options: Only ABS
- Camber <> 0.0 Data here
Edit: Comparison with game sectors:
- Camber <> 0.6 Data here
Edit: Comparison with game sectors:
- Camber <> 1.0 Data here
Edit: Comparison with game sectors:
Tire Consumption:
- 0.0
Drop to 8 with 11min and 17sec
RL : Drop to 9 with 7min and 21sec RR : Drop to 9 with 12min and 39sec
- 0.6
Drop to 8 with 11min
RL : Drop to 9 with 7min and 17sec RR : Drop to 9 with 12min
- 1.0
Drop to 8 with 11min and 09sec
RL : Drop to 9 with 7min and 22sec RR : Drop to 9 with 11min and 36sec
The car was good with 0.0 camber, but it felt complete with 0.6 all around, 1.0 felt like too much. The car was more responsive with 0.0 camber, but when all the weight transferred to the tires, 0.6 did a better job maintaining the grip.
1.0 of camber had a little more push, but was slightly better in some points, compared to 0.0.
In regard to tire consumption, i think camber has almost no effect on it, the tires drop almost at the same time, taking away the RR, which was the least abused tire.
As always, look at the data and take your own conclusion.
PS: Ignore out-lap and in-lap on the comparison, it clearly have some bugs.
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VR_Engineered
(Banned)
- 32
- New England
Can you do one for -0.3 camber? I usually do between .2-.4, but rarely at the same value from front vs rear.
