Is camber fixed? Discuss it here.

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by Johnnypenso, Dec 18, 2014.

  1. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    Every update to the game seems to convince some people that both minor and major changes have been made to the physics engine and this time around it seems to be camber. There is already talk of camber being effective now in the Undocumented Changes Thread beyond the visual correction announced in the 1.5 update. Discuss your findings on camber after the 1.15 update here. The more testing you do the more you'll be taken seriously.

    Resources in this thread:

    The Great Camber Experiment - from the Tuning Forum
    OdeFinn's Skyline tune and test times on Motegi Oval
    Sutuki's test of OdeFinn's tune with DS3
    Sutuki's test of OdeFinn's tune with G27
    super_gt's test at Motegi Oval with Mazda Roadster and DFGT
    LVracerGT's online S2000 test at Motegi Oval with G27
    GTP_CargoRatt's S500 at Tsukuba test
    super_gt's version of LVracerGT's test above with wheel
    super_gt's S2000/SH/Motegi test
    super_gt's camber test at Blackwood..in Live For Speed[​IMG]
    Stotty's test at Suzuka East with the CSL
    super_gt's Motegi Oval Yellowbird test
    super_gt's Tsukuba test with Yellowbird and Motec Data
    LeoStrop's Subara at Monza test with Motec Data
    super_gt's Mazda Roadster test at Silverstone National with Motec data
    Aussie_HSV's Jaguar test at HSR with Motec data
    DrEmmettBrown's BMW M4 Coupe test at Silverstone with Motec Data
    super_gt's Motegi Oval test with Yellowbird and Motec data
    Stotty tests Rido's Evo Tune at Tsukuba
    Stotty tests Rido's Evo Tune at Tsukuba again
    Thorin Cain's test of Rido's Evo Tune at Tsukuba
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
  2. RyanRacer

    RyanRacer

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    Wow, hardly any discussion... I guess people just don't want to discuss things that are worth discussing as of late.

    Or maybe they're afraid of the thread being derailed like last time. Fortunately with yadeegson being gone, we can be confident that a situation as ridiculous as Jack Napier's is highly unlikely...
     
  3. Furi

    Furi Premium

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    Can't link on mobile but there is a camber experiment discussion thread.
     
  4. Fuzzi0n

    Fuzzi0n

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    I've run with quite a bit of camber since the game was released because I prefer the way the cars look with it rather than what was quickest. Not really noticed a difference in this update, but I've not done any laps other than seasonal events.

    The easiest way to test it would be to run through a few corners with different camber settings then compare the data with Motec. Apricot Hill would be a good track to test at because it's got a huge range of corner types and isn't a long lap. I'd be interested to see which tyres are affected most by the camber changes.
     
  5. FoRiZon

    FoRiZon

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    Want to test it?

    Try X1 Standard Pre-Patch Vs Post-Patch.

    For some reason it reverts back to the before chamber fix.
     
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  6. PJTierney

    PJTierney

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    With camber it's difficult to judge if there is a difference because it all relies on how the car "feels" as you don't have live telemetry data, or any telemetry data at all to reference that shows you how warm the in/outside of a tyre is.

    The basic function of camber is to help create the largest contact patch between the tyre and the road (thus resulting in more grip), and the best way to see that is if you notice an even temperature gap from the outside of a tyre to the inside.

    The tuning guide I used to use for Forza Motorsport 4 is no longer available, but here is an alternative with a quick description:
    As there is no way to measure temperature ranges across a tyre in Gran Turismo 6, there is no way to objectively prove that camber adjustments are affecting the handling of a car. Therefore it will always come down to "feel". Unless somebody tells me otherwise, I'm going to keep Camber at 0/0 on any car I tune as I don't see any point in testing something I can't measure :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
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  7. super_gt

    super_gt

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  8. LVracerGT

    LVracerGT

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    It's mind blowing that camber is still an issue more than a year after release. Like @PJTierney said, without telemetry it's near impossible to accurately test camber. With that said, here's how I test camber.

    I take two cars, one that understeers and one that oversteers, to Ascari (or test track of choice). Start with 0 camber front and rear and get a base lap time for each car. Adding 1 degree of front camber to the car that understeers should aid front grip. Likewise, adding 1 degree of rear camber to the car that oversteers should help keep the rear in check. Theoretically lap times should drop.

    Again, not scientific but at least it helps verify if camber is working properly or not.
     
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  9. Jump_Ace

    Jump_Ace Staff Emeritus

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  10. RacingManiac

    RacingManiac

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    Last time I tried I just took a car, tune it using camber as you would IRL and try to get the car balanced. Run a time, then put it to zero and repeat. Zero was faster...this was before the update...

    After the update the only thing I've tried(without knowing the rumor that it is supposedly fixed), was add camber on drifting event this time on the front to make the car less responsive on the front end so I can control the drift without it going tank slapper on it as easily...I'm not convinced its fixed...

    If you have a big piece of flat surface you can maybe do a skid pad testing, at least you can see peak cornering grip differences. I used to use the "ring" at the Cape ring to do that, even with banking you can still see differences in grip, you can also see how much more input from the steering you need, or how often you need to play with throttle.
     
  11. dimangelogtp

    dimangelogtp

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    I think the camber is fixed i tested a couple cars and i have noticed that indeed PD implemented the way the suspension moves, as a result when you got for example 0 on the camper doesn't matter front or rear and the height of the car is about stock or higher the campers is close to 0 physically speaking.
    Now as you go lower without touching the camber setting the camber will increase physically because of the movement of the a -arms so as long you now how low you can go without affecting your physical 0 camber you should be able to see some real progress .
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
  12. Flash_Sweden

    Flash_Sweden

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    http://m.wikihow.com/Sample/Proper-Punctuation

    On topic: I haven't really driven any of my regulars after the update, so I haven't noticed any difference. Might try later tonight though.
     
  13. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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  14. Fanapryde

    Fanapryde

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    Since I started GT6 last year I have been driving close to 600 cars in the Nürburg 24' races and kept info about the lap times, all on RH tires, no aids, ABS1. I did not touch camber.
    After some 100 different cars I felt the need of also keeping track of the total race time and now I'm giving these 100 cars a new try, this time camber set at 0.
    ALL of these cars (except the RE Amemiya Asparadrink RX7 '06) are 5 to 14" faster around the Ring (wet/moist) than with the standard camber settings. Tried 24 cars up to this moment.

    Maybe - after some 85.000 km on the Ring - I am improving, so to rule that factor out I tried some cars with the standard camber settings too. Lost between 2 and 10" compared to the initial times.
    Thus I can conclude for myself that 0 camber is still faster, even after the last update.

    Edit: there IS a difference, most of the cars feel a bit more loose, but (except one) all are faster.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
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  15. Blank_Redge

    Blank_Redge

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    ...unless you're one of those bosozoku / "hellaflush" kids. :p
     
  16. Robbks

    Robbks

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    driving full laps and looking for a time is NOT a good way to test if camber is working>

    use a short section of track, like Suzuka east, and record what speeds you can turn in, maintain and exit the corner at.
    Re,eber that camber affects straight line grip and braking too, so what you might pick up with more corner speed (where Camber is useful), you might lose elsewhere.
    too many variables that way.
    Start with corner speed, then when you find the best cornering balance you can tweak it to adjust the braking and acceleration balance
     
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  17. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    Wouldn't the Motegi Oval be ideal then? Short track, only two corners, not too hard to feel the limit there? Easy to run lap after lap within a tenth? Should be an ideal place to check for the benefits of camber no?
     
  18. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Too often people assumes at camber is broken or not working when they are testing it with stone hard suspension and mega grippy tires.

    Some updates ago camber started to work, and tuning of cars started to feel fun again.

    Even with G27 you're able to feel how friction works on tires with camber tuned. But if you can't feel how your IRL everyday shopping car camber works then you can just forget that in game.
     
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  19. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    Camber should work almost independently of any suspension adjustments that are made. Suspension adjustments may allow you to take better advantage of the benefits of camber, but suspension changes shouldn't be necessary to tell whether camber works or not. You should still see a benefit from adding camber independent of changes to the suspension.
     
  20. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    @OdeFinn here's a suggestion. Tune up a car with your camber and all your suspension adjustments to run on the Motegi Oval. Post the tune here for others to try. What they can do is drive your car as is, then take all the camber off without changing any other parameters and if you're right that it takes suspension adjustments to see the benefit of camber, the car should be immediately and clearly slower without the camber no?

    Oops...didn't mean to double post..:eek:
     
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  21. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Yes and no, but we can run that test, trying to lap some times tomorrow.

    For no part; 0.0 camber has only straight rolling fiction force , any other camber value (without opposite fix from TOE) have also sideways forces affecting on straight line, so always 0.0 camber is faster on straight, cornering is only place where you benefit camber values.
    But hey going to put some comfort class tires and lap some time.
     
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  22. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    Presumably one can determine the potential straight line speed differential, if any, by using a ghost and running their very best lap with camber and then without and if it shows different straightline or cornering speed it should be easy to tell. And of course there's also the Motec info.
     
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  23. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    Most road course circuits contain more miles of corners than they do straights, so lap time can be a good indicator of handling improvement. Seems that the Motec data should be able to produce pretty concrete comparisons for differing segments of the track.
     
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  24. smskeeter23

    smskeeter23

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    Another part that enters into this that nobody has brought up in teal life is sidewall flex. And we know the tire models still seem to be woefully inadequate.

    Has anyone actually confirmed that the camber changes on suspension compression? If it doesn't, and the tires don't flex, I can't see the camber ever really working correctly on anything but 0/0.
     
  25. Nuschel01

    Nuschel01

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    GT needs the tire- and suspension-physics from LFS :D
     
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  26. nickg07

    nickg07

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    Also camber isn't static it should and will change on most cars as suspension compresses. Think someone else alluded to this above.

    A small amount of camber shouldn't hurt straight line speed but should have some effect on cornering.
    I would have thought toe would effect straight line more than camber.
     
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  27. super_gt

    super_gt

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    You want to say that the rear end of the cars is more unstable?
    I ask because I still have not downloaded the update 1.15 :)
     
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  28. Fanapryde

    Fanapryde

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    When camber is changed from standard setting to 0, some cars feel more loose in the rear, yes, but still not hard to control and faster around the Ring.
    I' m not really testing if camber is fixed or not. Driving 24' races is not a good way to establish that, but simply said: with camber set to 0, I'm (a lot) faster around there. That was the case before 1.15 and it still is.
     
  29. Stotty

    Stotty Premium

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    Not this **** again :rolleyes: :lol:

    Camber up to 1.15 was definitely FUBAR and adding any camber simply resulted in slower lap times, whatever you did with spring/damper rates or toe settings. Might have made the car feel better to you, but for anyone chasing faster lap times, it just reduced grip.

    If @praiano63 says it still doesn't work post 1.15, then I'm inclined to believe him.

    Go visit the tuning forum... there are all sorts of theoretical discussions along these lines... all trying to find ways reverse engineer GT6 in to real life theories... including the effect of toe and static/loaded suspension... pretty much anything you have thought about, or may think about in the future, has already been discussed to the nth degree on numerous occasions :lol:

    Unfortunately, it's all just intellectual rubbish - the simple fact is Camber didn't work before 1.15.
    _________________________________________________

    If anyone really believes that camber can make a car faster come post a tune for one of the Seasonal events and let the likes of @eclipsee or @GT_Rajman or one of the other super fast drivers test it against a tune with no camber.
     
  30. GordonS

    GordonS

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    Wow! Now I'm happy I sold all my PS3 equipment so I don't have to go back this road.
    Surely they will fix this issue in GT7, won't they?