Is camber fixed? Discuss it here.

Back to topic, still there is no comments on Skyline @ Motegi, no comparison times, nothing at all.
Was it too obvious car and case to show camber working?

I did a few laps with the Skyline.

Camber 0.6/0.6 - 41.124
Camber 0.0/0.0 - 40.985

I was only using DS3, but could still feel how the car became less responsive with added camber. With camber 0.0 I could do minor adjustments to my driving line, unlike with 0.6 camber.



EDIT: Corrected lap times
 
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"Pearls to the pigs" - Finnish phrase

Sometimes that phrase is just so true. I like to share ideology of my learnings to keep others on same baselevel, level where they can start their own journeys. Too often those ideologues are understood so wrong, like it was written on stone and no thinking allowed.

You are right about the 'problems' you present. However, there currently doesn't seem to be a good solution to them.

I doubt there'll ever be a 'solution', people on here will argue the world is still flat if it means they don't have to 'back down', or if it gives support, in some way, to their friends..


I'm interested in anything that teaches us how PD have made their physics system.

Really, so how come you haven't contributed anything to the current ongoing camber test?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...tage-1-high-speed-test-drivers-wanted.320272/

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was 'having a pop' but it's so difficult when so few people on this thread have contributed to the current camber test, and some who have, have contributed in a way that would impact the results in a negative way, not a positive way i.e. instead of keeping variables constant with only the test variable (camber) changing, they wanted to introduce multiple changing variables.

I haven't contributed specific values or data on this thread as I don't think it would be appropriate when the first round of testing has just finished and Dolhaus is preparing for round 2. Once I start to see to see valid, comparable data then wouldn't that be the time to comment about specific values, not now?
 
I did a few laps with the Skyline.

Camber 0.6/0.6 - 40.124
Camber 0.0/0.0 - 39.985

I was only using DS3, but could still feel how the car became less responsive with added camber. With camber 0.0 I could do minor adjustments to my driving line, unlike with 0.6 camber.

Great, first brave testing, thanks. Sorry but these times are going to different category, testing "realism of camber with anti realism turned on - DS3".

Then can we have some wheel results? Probably some measurement how much wheel is turned on turn with and without camber, measurement is easy to do, difference is so big at you can count it in minutes or degrees easily.
 
Really, so how come you haven't contributed anything to the current ongoing camber test?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...tage-1-high-speed-test-drivers-wanted.320272/

Just because I'm interested doesn't mean I have time to set the PS3 back up in my racing rig, run a bunch of laps and then learn how to use Motec and analyse them. I don't think that because I don't have time to contribute to the data collection that should invalidate any interest I might have in the data being collected.
 
Great, first brave testing, thanks. Sorry but these times are going to different category, testing "realism of camber with anti realism turned on - DS3".

:rolleyes:


With G27:

Camber 0.6/0.6 - 40.597
Camber 0.0/0.0 - 40.523

Still the same story, it's easier to pick the driving line and hold it with 0 camber + I kept getting much more consistent lap times. Same thing with every single car/tire/track combo I've tested before.

But hey, maybe it's just me :lol:




By the way, the lap times I did with DS3 were 1s slower than what I said earlier, just noticed that now.
 
Toe values can give quite a difference in handling, zero camber with zero toe ? Try toe in at the rear with 0.6 camber and slight toe out at the front. Usually I made some tweak on toe when changing camber ( depend on the tire and track as well as car unique handling traits ) Toe also affect tire wear much more than camber. The higher the tire grip, the higher camber, as more chassis roll possible.
 
Great, first brave testing, thanks. Sorry but these times are going to different category, testing "realism of camber with anti realism turned on - DS3".

Then can we have some wheel results? Probably some measurement how much wheel is turned on turn with and without camber, measurement is easy to do, difference is so big at you can count it in minutes or degrees easily.
The vast majority of people that play GT6 play with a DS3 no? So camber has to work for them too I suppose. Still not sure what the degrees of turning the wheel have to do with camber being faster or slower. It might involve same ancillary benefit to tire wear but that remains to be seen. And anyway, @Sutuki 's further test with the G27 corroborates, at least in this one case, that there is little lap time difference for either the wheel or DS3 for that particular combo at that particular track.
 
:rolleyes:


With G27:

Camber 0.6/0.6 - 40.597
Camber 0.0/0.0 - 40.523

Still the same story, it's easier to pick the driving line and hold it with 0 camber + I kept getting much more consistent lap times. Same thing with every single car/tire/track combo I've tested before.

But hey, maybe it's just me :lol:




By the way, the lap times I did with DS3 were 1s slower than what I said earlier, just noticed that now.
Thanks for results.
Curiosity were you running all aids off, also without ABS?
Just because tune isn't working on ABS well, it become understeery without slight changes on brake bias.

Toe values can give quite a difference in handling, zero camber with zero toe ? Try toe in at the rear with 0.6 camber and slight toe out at the front. Usually I made some tweak on toe when changing camber ( depend on the tire and track as well as car unique handling traits ) Toe also affect tire wear much more than camber. The higher the tire grip, the higher camber, as more chassis roll possible.

Camber=toe in
Camber+toe in=more toe in
Camber+toe out=no toe
Those are opposite forces what can eliminate overall toe value when used one way, or it can "multiply" toe on other way.

So of course when making changes on working tune you should adjust toe along camber.

High amount toe makes car glued to road until slip point comes up, then it's bye bye. Lower toe vales makes recovery easier and raises slip point.

We should not forget personal driving style, if your style is for precise and aiming on prefect line always you can keep good laptimes when hotlapping or leading race, but you setup or style is not working on fast driving outside of optimal line, ie. Overtaking outer side on corner, and going on improvised lines inside traffic. Then again stable setup and good camber usage guys just make really quick lines thru corners on improvised lines.

My testing on Motegi was first time ever on that track, I spent approx 15(x2 v114&v115) lap on camber and same on 0-camber, my lines vary a lot, but on camber time was paying around 0.4 sec variation on whole session, laps where was no "mistakes" plays around 0.2 sec variation. No optimal lines just pushing around track, without camber you had to hit apex more precisely, throttle opening had to be more accurate to avoid understeer, totally opposite to camber driving.
Variation on 0-camber lap times was much bigger, due no perfect driving line etc, and without "perfect"line 0-camber is harder to keep on constant lap times.
 
Thanks for results.
Curiosity were you running all aids off, also without ABS?
Just because tune isn't working on ABS well, it become understeery without slight changes on brake bias.

ABS was off.


I don't understand how we're getting exact opposite results though :lol:...
 
ABS was off.


I don't understand how we're getting exact opposite results though :lol:...
Proper lines against not so proper.
My biggest sin is real life thinking while driving, can't just risk too much, don't want take "gaming mode" with me on work and just had to keep driving under control.
Keeping on game there always reserve maneuverability, never going on limit, always having room to change line inner or outer.
 
Just because I'm interested doesn't mean I have time to set the PS3 back up in my racing rig, run a bunch of laps and then learn how to use Motec and analyse them. I don't think that because I don't have time to contribute to the data collection that should invalidate any interest I might have in the data being collected.

You don't have to do all that or as much as that. Positive contributions can be as little and simple as just giving support through likes, posts etc 👍
 
Thanks for results.
Curiosity were you running all aids off, also without ABS?
Just because tune isn't working on ABS well, it become understeery without slight changes on brake bias.



Camber=toe in
Camber+toe in=more toe in
Camber+toe out=no toe
Those are opposite forces what can eliminate overall toe value when used one way, or it can "multiply" toe on other way.

So of course when making changes on working tune you should adjust toe along camber.

High amount toe makes car glued to road until slip point comes up, then it's bye bye. Lower toe vales makes recovery easier and raises slip point.

We should not forget personal driving style, if your style is for precise and aiming on prefect line always you can keep good laptimes when hotlapping or leading race, but you setup or style is not working on fast driving outside of optimal line, ie. Overtaking outer side on corner, and going on improvised lines inside traffic. Then again stable setup and good camber usage guys just make really quick lines thru corners on improvised lines.

My testing on Motegi was first time ever on that track, I spent approx 15(x2 v114&v115) lap on camber and same on 0-camber, my lines vary a lot, but on camber time was paying around 0.4 sec variation on whole session, laps where was no "mistakes" plays around 0.2 sec variation. No optimal lines just pushing around track, without camber you had to hit apex more precisely, throttle opening had to be more accurate to avoid understeer, totally opposite to camber driving.
Variation on 0-camber lap times was much bigger, due no perfect driving line etc, and without "perfect"line 0-camber is harder to keep on constant lap times.
The way you describe it would sound to an outsider like the difference between 0.0 and 0.6 camber is night and day on the track, almost like driving two different cars. I don't get how that can be true, and all the different inputs you say you need with each variation, and yet you arrive at the finish line at virtually the same time both ways as does @Sutuki. IMO you are using different words but saying the same thing as @Motor City Hami was saying, that camber gives a slightly better feel entering the corner and zero camber improves corner exit, but both end up at the same spot at the end of the lap within a tenth or two.

But in real life which the game is supposed to simulate, the addition of camber on a track like Motegi should result in massive, obvious and impossible to miss gains in cornering speed and with braking being far less of a concern than on a road course, the lap time gains should be obvious, clear and without dispute.
 
I've only done a few tests in a detuned 350pp Miata at Indy on CM. Indy is one of the flattest tracks (ok, so it has 9 degrees of banking on the turns) but it's one that even I can drive and hold the same line lap after lap. Granted I've only done 3 tests... Camber @ 0.0/0,0 - 0.5/0.5 - 1.0/1.0 and it shows what most have been saying. I saved the best ghost (0.5/0.5) and ran the 1.0/1.0 setup. The ghost just pulls away in the turns. No need for MoTeC or data logger, you can clearly see that even at that small of an adjustment, it loses grip...and I'm just guessing here, but I'm thinking that the more camber will lead to more loss of grip. I did keep all the replays for MoTeC purposes...just in case.
So, to me, it only makes sense that those who say no camber is still the best (they must set the cars up for max grip) as well as those who say that they add camber to whichever end of the car they want to lose grip (those who go more for comfort behind the wheel).
A few more independent tests with the Miata and I'm also interested in helping test @DolHaus next stage of camber testing; will hopefully show more of this. Again, this is only on a flat-ish track, I'm wondering if banked turns might show different results.
 
As I said in my 1st post, not this **** again... and so it continues :lol:

Same old same old... too many people confusing GT6 with real life.

Anyone who can drive consistently at a cars limit knows camber is FUBAR.

Irrespective of tyre wear, adding camber to a car should increase cornering grip... but it doesn't... it decreases grip.
 
What about the rest of the settings,do we need to have toe to 0 to see the camber as it self ? or stay with with the stock numbers of the racing suspension setup ?
 
As I said in my 1st post, not this **** again... and so it continues :lol:

Same old same old... too many people confusing GT6 with real life.

Anyone who can drive consistently at a cars limit knows camber is FUBAR.

Irrespective of tyre wear, adding camber to a car should increase cornering grip... but it doesn't... it decreases grip.

Like what you did for how long throughout GT5 with your "suspension is backwards" theory??
 
Like what you did for how long throughout GT5 with your "suspension is backwards" theory??

What does that thread have to do with this discussion?

Oh, other than it also had posters in it trying to find convoluted ways to justify the holes in GT6 physics/tuning with abstract real life theories :lol:
 
Let's not turn this into a trollfest fellas. If you have anything specific to add on the topic regarding your own testing or the tests of others, then feel free to do so. There's no problem bringing someone's methodology into question so long as you have specific critiques. As I said in the OP, let's discuss changes to camber, if any, in the 1.15 update and the more testing you do the better. If you want to bring up old arguments from GT5 or GT6 feel free to do so, somewhere else of course:D.
 
What about the rest of the settings,do we need to have toe to 0 to see the camber as it self ? or stay with with the stock numbers of the racing suspension setup ?
I took the TOE down to 0 just to attempt to level things out. I'm sure in the Camber Test thread, Dolhaus will have different settings/cars/tracks in future tests in attempt to get results covering most of the spectrum. I'm just trying to keep it simple..obvious reasons!:dopey:
 
The way you describe it would sound to an outsider like the difference between 0.0 and 0.6 camber is night and day on the track, almost like driving two different cars. I don't get how that can be true, and all the different inputs you say you need with each variation, and yet you arrive at the finish line at virtually the same time both ways as does @Sutuki. IMO you are using different words but saying the same thing as @Motor City Hami was saying, that camber gives a slightly better feel entering the corner and zero camber improves corner exit, but both end up at the same spot at the end of the lap within a tenth or two.

But in real life which the game is supposed to simulate, the addition of camber on a track like Motegi should result in massive, obvious and impossible to miss gains in cornering speed and with braking being far less of a concern than on a road course, the lap time gains should be obvious, clear and without dispute.
Whole thread is about is camber working/fixed, I see it working, and wheel users can measure it from their wheel turn radius.
That tune and motegi you cannot drive without noticing angle of your steering wheel, ~40 degree with camber and ~55 degree without.
In my opinion this clearly shows camber working, does driver have skills to get advantage of it is different.

I tune my cars so forgivable at I can drive over curbs without worrying disaster, although most "alien"-tunes are so fragile at even small touch on curb kicks you in trouble.
Biggest difference between my tune and alien tune is camber and suspension stiffness along with toe, I'm trying to keep suspension alive more to softer side than alien way hard, same as I'm running small toe vales and often alien tunes rely on toe glueing to road.
Also my differential locks are made to support suspension setup, getting that "missing" toe glue from there.

That skyline tune is easy to use on demonstrative manner, go and change some value alone there and you see how whole setup breaks up, all settings are relying to other part or parts.

0-camber and cambered setups are totally different.
I can setup car using 0-camber and made quick, but out will always be fragile on surface changes ie.curbs/grass/etc. Suspension had to be really stiff to raise slip point on cornering, and after slip it behaves like piece of soap until it snaps traction again.

Camber tuned car behaves more predictable, slipping is softer and gaining traction comes also softer. Tuning starts a bit different way than 0-model.

And as that difference on 0.6 and 0.0 there is no stone graved answer, on this tune what is made for camber there is huge difference on handling, some cases there is more and some other less. Everything is related how tune is made and how capable driver is.

Lets forget these numerical comparisons of camber in real life and GT6, just assume those being some numerical values.
Limit where camber benefits are lost aren't static, those rely on setup, after some point your tire is just too tilted and there isn't enough contact to ground and you lose grip easier, on real life you can put different compound and softer pressure, on game you have moderate (closer badly) tire compound which has too small limit on flexibility, car weight point is counted probably way too high from ground, as seen on roll-overs, then we have to use tuning tools in these limits.
When you figure optimal camber on your current car& setup you see how one tenth more camber makes it slide and one tenth less makes it too grippy. And yes grippy, not on good way but grippy, like bad tailsnap. And if one tenth is not making such difference then your springs and absorbers are not on perfect tune.

Ps. sorry for long post, pointless and wandering post, too tired to get proper output on 5" phone screen..something forgotten something too much..jadajada..

Edit: biggest benefits of proper camber tune is ability to use all tyre compounds without re-tuning car. No worries on comfort tyres nor racing softs, good balance and car can be used as drifting car also.
 
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I tune my cars so forgivable at I can drive over curbs without worrying disaster, although most "alien"-tunes are so fragile at even small touch on curb kicks you in trouble.
Biggest difference between my tune and alien tune is camber and suspension stiffness along with toe, I'm trying to keep suspension alive more to softer side than alien way hard, same as I'm running small toe vales and often alien tunes rely on toe glueing to road.

If you check the tunes posted by the faster drivers in the Seasonal section you'll see that most are set up with very soft spring rates (often close to the minimum rate), medium/soft dampers and stiff ARB's. And most 'aliens' (as you call them) use as little toe as possible as toe is a rubbish way to tune a car as its effects are too broad.

The 'fragility' (as you describe it) doesn't come from the stiffness of the suspension, but from the amount of 'rotation' they build in to the tune - primarily through the use of ride height differential (higher front than rear), but also from using minimum LSD decel and minimum (ie; 0.00) rear toe.

I wouldn't classify myself as an 'alien', but personally, I use zero rear toe 99% of the time, and only vary when a car is very unstable on corner entry (when I'll use a bit of +ve rear) or has a lot of entry/mid-corner understeer (when I'll use -ve rear if ride height is already max front/min rear). I almost always use no front toe.

The tunes I have from friends (some of whom are amongst the very fastest drivers in the World) use a similar approach, but theirs have more rotation built in to them than mine - as the better a driver is, the more rotation they can cope with.

Without exception, they all have zero camber.
 
What does that thread have to do with this discussion?

Oh, other than it also had posters in it trying to find convoluted ways to justify the holes in GT6 physics/tuning with abstract real life theories :lol:

What's the point of you giving it the "LOL"s about something you were guilty of previously?

Also, there's different opinions on this thread, it's not the 'same old, same old', so your 'same old, same old' wasn't even valid.
 
@Stotty, not wanting to go picky, maybe I exaggerate bit on my starting on alien tunes, not lately checking how top ten is tuning, most tunes what I have tested are made really fragile, you just had to hit on perfect line or you do closer examination on track walls.

I call those tunes one lap wonders, not suitable for racing against others, good for trying to make one quick shot out of twenty tries.
 
@Stotty, not wanting to go picky, maybe I exaggerate bit on my starting on alien tunes, not lately checking how top ten is tuning, most tunes what I have tested are made really fragile, you just had to hit on perfect line or you do closer examination on track walls.

I call those tunes one lap wonders, not suitable for racing against others, good for trying to make one quick shot out of twenty tries.
If camber was working though, wouldn't these fragile tunes also have some camber to take advantage of the increased grip it offers?

@OdeFinn
What are the key differences between a Time Trial setup and a Race Setup? Just curious.
For me it's about stability and predictability. I am not good enough to not make mistakes in a longer race which almost always involve over rotating by lifting the throttle at the wrong moment or getting on the throttle too early after riding a curb. When hot lapping you don't care about those things so you can make the car run "loose" which for me usually means a lower decel LSD setting and a higher accel LSD. When racing I move the opposite way with more decel LSD to keep the car more planted on entry and mid-corner and lower accel LSD to encourage inside wheelspin before more catastrophic outside wheelspin.

I had this very situation today in a 37 lap race and those are the adjustments that I made in my qualifying vs. race setup.
 
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@Stotty, not wanting to go picky, maybe I exaggerate bit on my starting on alien tunes, not lately checking how top ten is tuning, most tunes what I have tested are made really fragile, you just had to hit on perfect line or you do closer examination on track walls.

I call those tunes one lap wonders, not suitable for racing against others, good for trying to make one quick shot out of twenty tries.

I am assuming by fragile you mean the car is very nervous at the limit if you miss your braking point, or your turn in point by even a fraction?

As I said, this 'fragility' comes from how quickly the car is built to turn; the faster a car turns the faster laps it will run - it will understeer less, get to the apex faster, have less mid corner understeer, therefore allow you to get on the throttle earlier and so run faster laps.

The better the driver someone is, the more they can handle a car that rotates quickly as their skills allow them too be more precise on the brakes, steering and throttle, and therefore control the weighshifts of the car and its grip better.

Of course you can set up a car to be more unforgiving for a TT as you only need to complete that 'ONE' perfect lap... BUT, you can't have a set up that only allows you to complete 1 lap in a 100 as the chances of that 1 lap being THE lap is slim. You have to balance the probabilities!

I'll give you an example...

@eclipsee is one of the very fastest drivers in the World and is a long-time good friend of mine. Ramon shares his tunes with me from time to time, but for me, they are almost always too much to handle. I can feel the potential, and I might be able to do an odd corner as fast as Ramon, or even 3 or 4 corners in a whole lap, but the chances of completing a full lap without making a mistake are slim... I'm just not good enough!

So if I get a tune from Ramon I usually need to make it rotate a bit less aggressively. To do this, all I need to do is adjust the ride height difference.. so if Ramon has ride height at f100 r50, I would move to f100 r60, then by further 5mm increments until I get a balance I can manage. I also might need to run a click less rear brakes to make it more stable when trail braking (Ramon is much better at throttle overlapping than I am).

But there are no fundamental differences to approaching TT tuning or race or endurance tuning. Yes, you would want a more forgiving car for a race vs a TT, but this would be as simple as taking the TT and...

1. reducing the rate of rotation and make the car a bit more stable by reducing the ride height differential
2. reducing the rear brake by 1-2 clicks to reduce the chance of brake release oversteer
3. reduce LSD accel by a couple of clicks to lessen the chance of exit oversteer

This would be more than enough to make the car more forgiving for racing.
 
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