Is Gran Turismo right on the money now?

[JMoney]

.........................Speaking from experience here: only place in the entire offline section of the game where one can earn a tidy stack of credits is the Red Bull Standard Championship. With no login bonus you are looking at 1.1 million - with 200% bonus, that swells to 2.2 mil, all in less than half hour.
.....................Trouble is, RB cars do tend to drone... and doing same thing over and over and over is akin to a slow walk off the plank - man it's so dispiriting...

You must have one fast car if you can do the entire championship in less than 30 minutes.

Maybe he didn't have the internet access required to download the several gigabytes of updates needed to access the seasonals?

Seasonals were an update. If he didn't update, he didn't have access to seasonals.

That's my point, that's why it's so crazy.

 

[JKgo]

You must have one fast car if you can do the entire championship in less than 30 minutes.

.................Oh no, you are given the car for this. It's a Red Bull Standard Race car.
There are five races in the championship, and each race only lasts three laps - and the RB-S cars are mighty fast - it will do Trial Mountain in around 54 seconds. Even I can do a low 1 min 22 sec on Nurburgring GP on this car with a dualshock 3, and I have two left hands...

 

[Imari]

.........................Speaking from experience here: only place in the entire offline section of the game where one can earn a tidy stack of credits is the Red Bull Standard Championship. With no login bonus you are looking at 1.1 million - with 200% bonus, that swells to 2.2 mil, all in less than half hour.
.....................Trouble is, RB cars do tend to drone... and doing same thing over and over and over is akin to a slow walk off the plank - man it's so dispiriting...

So probably two and a half hours to earn enough for a 20 million credit car, assuming that you've got the full login bonus somehow. More like 4+ hours if you haven't.

That's not too bad time-wise. Of course, it's not anywhere near as generous as GT1 was but it's not too bad. If they could make a decent amount of races with similar payouts, that could be fine.

==========

As an aside, I do find it quite odd that both GT5 and GT6 shipped with economies that were horrendously grindy out of the box.

For some reason Polyphony has moved to making games that are very grindy, and then patching in "fixes". I could understand making the mistake once in GT5, but with it happening again in GT6 the only reasonable assumption is that it is intentional.

 

[NixxxoN]

700,000 credits (no login bonus) for a Seasonal race is "far less" for you? The only part in GT6 that needs a larger credit payout is career mode, nothing more, nothing less. If you go to casual online lobbies for the sole purpose of earning credits, you're bonkers.

WTF? I didnt say seasonals were bad. I said career mode and online mode.
Why online mode doesnt need good payouts??? People would spend more time online, and usually it is harder and has more merit to win online races, since the human players, are usually far better than the AI (unless newbies and such)

 

[FiftyBelowZero]

WTF? I didnt say seasonals were bad. I said career mode and online mode.

Seasonals are still referred to as online races; despite the fact you're still racing against AI, they still need to connect to the internet. When you said online mode, I thought you were including Seasonals into the latter as well. My bad and your bad.

 

[Stylel_Code]

WTF? I didnt say seasonals were bad. I said career mode and online mode.
Why online mode doesnt need good payouts??? People would spend more time online, and usually it is harder and has more merit to win online races, since the human players, are usually far better than the AI (unless newbies and such)

The online quick match races give a lot of credits (usually around 300'000 with login bonus if you finish 1st). Of course with these races you can never know whether or not the other guys are gonna be clean or dirty, but if they all cut the chicane(like the le mans race) at the last corner, you can do the same so you are on the same level and have same chance of winning. There are other fun races where guys are clean on other tracks and in which you win a lots of money.
But sure I would welcome the online lobbies to have better payouts than they actually have.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The online quick match races give a lot of credits (usually around 300'000 with login bonus if you finish 1st). Of course with these races you can never know whether or not the other guys are gonna be clean or dirty, but if they all cut the chicane(like the le mans race) at the last corner, you can do the same so you are on the same level and have same chance of winning. There are other fun races where guys are clean on other tracks and in which you win a lots of money.
But sure I would welcome the online lobbies to have better payouts than they actually have.

You get $300k in a Quick Match in 2 laps?

 

[Stylel_Code]

You get $300k in a Quick Match in 2 laps?

Yes with login bonus maxed out and if you finish first. But you win also lots of money if you finish around the first places.

 

[Imari]

You get $300k in a Quick Match in 2 laps?

There's no way you're going to be able to do that consistently though, with how random Quick Match is. Long term your return is going to be lower, and there's a substantial amount of waiting (and or random disconnects) associated with going into Quick Match as well which will pull your credits/hr ratio down too.

 

[Stylel_Code]

There's no way you're going to be able to do that consistently though, with how random Quick Match is. Long term your return is going to be lower, and there's a substantial amount of waiting (and or random disconnects) associated with going into Quick Match as well which will pull your credits/hr ratio down too.

This is what you call challenge. If you enter a race knowing you will win whatever happens, I call this annoying grinding. I think Quick match is a good tool for winning credits and having fun at the same time.

 

[AnfLaw]

Not sure how relevant this is, being as Ive missed 99.9% of GT6s release. I got the game on the 17th/18th of December (I'd find the receipt and be super accurate but, whaaaatevvverrr) played it for a couple hours most days, done the RedBull stuff, Senna/Lunar/Goodwood/all available seasonals and according to the stats page, 54% of the career and I've gained 41mil credits.

So... I'd say its alright by me

 

[MatskiMonk]

This is what you call challenge. If you enter a race knowing you will win whatever happens, I call this annoying grinding. I think Quick match is a good tool for winning credits and having fun at the same time.

I agree with this concept, credits are the product of racing, and you use credits to buy cars. If people want to attack that in an arse-about-face fashion, then it's their problem. GT is one of he massive number of games that has an in-game reward system, and that's the way it is (personally the way I hope it stays too)... If you don't like it, then you've bought the wrong game, which again, is not PD's problem.

Maybe the concept of earning something you want is alien to some people, maybe some people CHOOSE grinding as their way to earn, I don't know , perhaps I'm stuck in the 90's but want, play, earn, buy doesn't seem such a terrible model... If people CHOOSE to race the same races over and over, then I say it's THEIR fault they grind, Not PD's.

 

[Fanapryde]

After one year, these stats.
I guess I had my money's worth of game...
Still does not bore me.
No money glitches or other tricks, just racing, mostly Nurburgring 24' (with some 600 different cars right now, keeping track of fastest lap times, total times etc...) 640.000 Cr for less than half an hour racing.

The only thing I do not like are the coffee breaks (drifting and cones).
Just finished career mode for the second time around (using the same cars as the first time) just for fun.

About car prizes: some months ago a Ferrari 250 GTO (1962) came up for sale for a whopping $38.115.000.
Couldn't afford that i.r.l. so I bought my second one in the game. 20.000.000 Cr. is not that bad. Maybe not everyone playing GT6 can afford it ? Well, if you want it: play the game, work for it ... ;-)

Is GT6 complete ? No it is not. There is still a lot of work to do for PD. But it will come... in time ... maybe !?
Is it worth the money and the time ? You bet !

 

[Imari]

This is what you call challenge. If you enter a race knowing you will win whatever happens, I call this annoying grinding. I think Quick match is a good tool for winning credits and having fun at the same time.

No.

There's a difference between Quick Match and a difficult race.

A difficult race is one that you can win (or at least do well) if you are skilled and use those skills correctly. Improving your skills improves your results.

In Quick Match, sometimes (often, some might say) it's simply impossible to finish well.

A race with skill would have qualifying, or grid people according to some sort of system. There is no way to improve your grid position when it's decided by RNG, and if you're right at the back there's simply no way to finish well against drivers of similar pace.

Skill can help avoid incidents and the like (the other major problem with QM), but generally it takes the form of clever racecraft where you sacrifice a small amount of time to avoid the larger loss of an incident. In a short race you do not have the time for that "investment" to pay off, you lose either way. And for less skilled drivers, the optimal race strategy is often to actively try to play bumper cars and take out other drivers in the hope that they gain an advantage (thank you, damage system). Or you'll just get punted because PD's wacky netcode decides that it's that time of day.

The result is a system where luck plays a fairly large role in the results. If you're good, you're trying to dodge people who are actually trying to bounce off you because that's what's best for them, unless you're lucky enough to start out front and manage to miss the first corner pileup.

If I go into a race in iRacing, I know more or less what I can do to help myself get a good result. Sometimes there are unavoidable incidents and I get screwed out of a good finish, but mostly I can identify what I could have done to improve my chances.
In Quick Match, there are too many things that are actively against me. It is to my opponent's advantage to use me as a brake into the corner, and there is no disadvantage for them to do so. GT and Quick Match favours the attacker, massively so. The old GT1 trick of barrelling up the inside of someone in a corner and bouncing off them still works.

Quick Match is not a tool that can be used to consistently win credits. It will earn you some credits over time, but not anything near what you'd get by running something like the RB races.

Some people may have fun on it, but I sure as hell didn't when I tried it. It's the motoring equivalent of a ball pit full of toddlers. It's kind of fun for a bit in a lighthearted way, but eventually I get bored of fielding balls to the face and retards chewing on my ankles. I'd rather be in a race that at least attempts to promote racing in a manner similar to the way it happens in reality.

Well, if you want it: play the game, work for it ... ;-)

Just what I wanted, a second job.

I thought games were supposed to be fun, not work. I work at my job so that I can afford to buy things like computer games. I don't work to buy them so that I can then work some more.

If I wanted to work more, I'd just stay at work and get paid for it.

 

[Stylel_Code]

No.

There's a difference between Quick Match and a difficult race.

A difficult race is one that you can win (or at least do well) if you are skilled and use those skills correctly. Improving your skills improves your results.

In Quick Match, sometimes (often, some might say) it's simply impossible to finish well.

A race with skill would have qualifying, or grid people according to some sort of system. There is no way to improve your grid position when it's decided by RNG, and if you're right at the back there's simply no way to finish well against drivers of similar pace.

Skill can help avoid incidents and the like (the other major problem with QM), but generally it takes the form of clever racecraft where you sacrifice a small amount of time to avoid the larger loss of an incident. In a short race you do not have the time for that "investment" to pay off, you lose either way. And for less skilled drivers, the optimal race strategy is often to actively try to play bumper cars and take out other drivers in the hope that they gain an advantage (thank you, damage system). Or you'll just get punted because PD's wacky netcode decides that it's that time of day.

The result is a system where luck plays a fairly large role in the results. If you're good, you're trying to dodge people who are actually trying to bounce off you because that's what's best for them, unless you're lucky enough to start out front and manage to miss the first corner pileup.

If I go into a race in iRacing, I know more or less what I can do to help myself get a good result. Sometimes there are unavoidable incidents and I get screwed out of a good finish, but mostly I can identify what I could have done to improve my chances.
In Quick Match, there are too many things that are actively against me. It is to my opponent's advantage to use me as a brake into the corner, and there is no disadvantage for them to do so. GT and Quick Match favours the attacker, massively so. The old GT1 trick of barrelling up the inside of someone in a corner and bouncing off them still works.

Quick Match is not a tool that can be used to consistently win credits. It will earn you some credits over time, but not anything near what you'd get by running something like the RB races.

Some people may have fun on it, but I sure as hell didn't when I tried it. It's the motoring equivalent of a ball pit full of toddlers. It's kind of fun for a bit in a lighthearted way, but eventually I get bored of fielding balls to the face and retards chewing on my ankles. I'd rather be in a race that at least attempts to promote racing in a manner similar to the way it happens in reality.



Just what I wanted, a second job.

I thought games were supposed to be fun, not work. I work at my job so that I can afford to buy things like computer games. I don't work to buy them so that I can then work some more.

If I wanted to work more, I'd just stay at work and get paid for it.

I agree every points you said. However, GT6 is not the same as Iracing and will never be, even with Iracing's physics. Gran Turismo, as a whole, is supposed to be a game acccessible for everyone, the way career mode is design is that it tries to make the lower beginners become skilled drivers at the end. In Iracing you are supposed to begin already as a pro driver.

Quick match is populated with all sorts of players. Iracing's races are long, like Real life. For GT players it will become boring to race laps and laps knowing that you are on the back of the grid because of a mistake or whatever. So it it a critical situation for podi. Also you have to know your kind of racer represents a small minority of GT players. I wish everyone would drive as gently as you, it is not the case unfortunately..

Another thing with online lobbies payouts is that there is a problem: If people want better payouts, some people will use it at their advantage: 1 lap ir a few more motegi nascar circuit with red bull against a friend over and over with maxed out bonus, in the end it will be massive amount of money. I am for PD that they give better payouts for online lobbies, but first there needs to be a solution in the case I mentioned.

 

[NixxxoN]

Seasonals are still referred to as online races; despite the fact you're still racing against AI, they still need to connect to the internet. When you said online mode, I thought you were including Seasonals into the latter as well. My bad and your bad.

Yeah, I was talking about online races, not online events. Online races in which you race directly against other players online.

The online quick match races give a lot of credits (usually around 300'000 with login bonus if you finish 1st). Of course with these races you can never know whether or not the other guys are gonna be clean or dirty, but if they all cut the chicane(like the le mans race) at the last corner, you can do the same so you are on the same level and have same chance of winning. There are other fun races where guys are clean on other tracks and in which you win a lots of money.
But sure I would welcome the online lobbies to have better payouts than they actually have.

I didnt realise that. Its funny because quick match mode is full of low level players and usually 1 out of 10 players have decent skill. Its easy to win those... So the reward should be lower than in normal lobbies.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Its easy to win those... So the reward should be lower than in normal lobbies.

Not according to Imari, you two should argue about that for a while.

 

[FiftyBelowZero]

Its funny because quick match mode is full of low level players and usually 1 out of 10 players have decent skill. Its easy to win those... So the reward should be lower than in normal lobbies.

No, not really. From past experience, on all Quick Match events excluding the 600pp supercar one, most drivers actually do have decent skill. Most. But there will be at least a few intoxicated toddlers in every race.

Nevertheless, I can't see where you're getting at. I see no reason to reduce payouts from Quick Match. The only payouts that need to be adjusted are career mode and online lobby payouts.

 

[NixxxoN]

Nevertheless, I can't see where you're getting at. I see no reason to reduce payouts from Quick Match. The only payouts that need to be adjusted are career mode and online lobby payouts.

That's exactly what I was saying... not reduce quick match payouts but increase the others.

 

[Imari]

I agree every points you said. However, GT6 is not the same as Iracing and will never be, even with Iracing's physics. Gran Turismo, as a whole, is supposed to be a game acccessible for everyone, the way career mode is design is that it tries to make the lower beginners become skilled drivers at the end.

I disagree about needing to be a pro already to play iRacing (and most of the other stuff you say about it), but the point I was making about GT is that Quick Match doesn't encourage people to learn to become skilled drivers. If you're a below average driver, your quickest and easiest way to success is to cut corners, bounce of other cars and generally drive like it's Mario Kart. It doesn't in any way promote "real" racecraft, especially not for beginners.

There are many issues with how they've set up Quick Match, but that's a big one. There is no incentive to drive realistically, and arguably the fastest technique (or at least the one most likely to result in wins) is not to even try. For a game that prides itself on being a realistic simulator, that's a pretty big flaw. No one expects a simulation to be perfect, but the best thing to do is to encourage people to use the parts of the simulation that are well done, not to routinely abuse parts that are barely modelled.

Another thing with online lobbies payouts is that there is a problem: If people want better payouts, some people will use it at their advantage: 1 lap ir a few more motegi nascar circuit with red bull against a friend over and over with maxed out bonus, in the end it will be massive amount of money. I am for PD that they give better payouts for online lobbies, but first there needs to be a solution in the case I mentioned.

The payouts for all online modes should be equivalent to each other and to offline mode*. If people want to grind in a room with their friends instead of against the Red Bulls, is that a problem?

*And offline modes should have reasonable payouts.
Basically, you should be able to drive whatever you want and not feel that you're gimping your ability to afford new cars by choosing to have fun. And those payouts should be balanced to maximise the feeling of reward from buying a new car and minimising the frustration of feeling that you need to work for it.

 

[NixxxoN]

Not according to Imari, you two should argue about that for a while.

Well, the thing is, I usually play with the same people almost everytime, and all those have decent skill, none of them are bad players. Unlike quick match, where a lot of times its a "n00bfest" and you can find that the vast majority of players in the lobby are low level, and almost none has good skill.
So yes, from my experience, quick match mode is much easier to win.

 

[FiftyBelowZero]

That's exactly what I was saying... not reduce quick match payouts but increase the others.

Mate, did you not say "the payout should be lower than in normal lobbies," clearly referring to Quick Match?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well, the thing is, I usually play with the same people almost everytime, and all those have decent skill, none of them are bad players. Unlike quick match, where a lot of times its a "n00bfest" and you can find that the vast majority of players in the lobby are low level, and almost none has good skill.
So yes, from my experience, quick match mode is much easier to win.

My QM experience is similar to yours. I tried it maybe 3 dozen times in a dozen or more different lobbies and every one of them was a crashfest. The skill level and/or the race etiquette in QM was atrocious, the worst of the worst IMO. It is relatively easy to win if you don't get wrecked but it's tough not to get wrecked with all the carnage going on around you. And really, what fun is it to win when you're racing against a bunch of clowns who either can't or won't drive clean. It's the equivalent of grinding online. It seem ridiculous to me that the payouts would be so huge when the rest of the online payouts are so tiny as to be almost inconsequential relative to QM and Seasonals. Hardly an encouragement to go online and race in an organized lobby, it's almost an enticement on PD's part to avoid organized racing and participate in a crashfest instead.

 

[NixxxoN]

Mate, did you not say "the payout should be lower than in normal lobbies," clearly referring to Quick Match?

With that I meant that normal lobby matches should have far more payout. More than the quick matches, which are very short races with often lots of unskilled players involved.

My QM experience is similar to yours. I tried it maybe 3 dozen times in a dozen or more different lobbies and every one of them was a crashfest. The skill level and/or the race etiquette in QM was atrocious, the worst of the worst IMO. It is relatively easy to win if you don't get wrecked but it's tough not to get wrecked with all the carnage going on around you. And really, what fun is it to win when you're racing against a bunch of clowns who either can't or won't drive clean. It's the equivalent of grinding online. It seem ridiculous to me that the payouts would be so huge when the rest of the online payouts are so tiny as to be almost inconsequential relative to QM and Seasonals. Hardly an encouragement to go online and race in an organized lobby, it's almost an enticement on PD's part to avoid organized racing and participate in a crashfest instead.

Yeah... Since they can't be kicked out by the host (there's no host) some players (the dirty ones) think they can crash on other players as if nothing happens. There are the penalties on, but still, there's a dirtyness everywhere.

 

[Stylel_Code]

I disagree about needing to be a pro already to play iRacing (and most of the other stuff you say about it), but the point I was making about GT is that Quick Match doesn't encourage people to learn to become skilled drivers. If you're a below average driver, your quickest and easiest way to success is to cut corners, bounce of other cars and generally drive like it's Mario Kart. It doesn't in any way promote "real" racecraft, especially not for beginners.

There are many issues with how they've set up Quick Match, but that's a big one. There is no incentive to drive realistically, and arguably the fastest technique (or at least the one most likely to result in wins) is not to even try. For a game that prides itself on being a realistic simulator, that's a pretty big flaw. No one expects a simulation to be perfect, but the best thing to do is to encourage people to use the parts of the simulation that are well done, not to routinely abuse parts that are barely modelled.

I agreed with this. The penalty system is also stupid, it's not even the "strong" or "weak" ones from Online lobbies, which work very well, these penalties are custome ones that are very bad. However, my experience with Iracing showed me you have to be very experiwnced before entering a race. GT teaches more from the ground, the most basics (how to overtake, the racing lines, braking points..) first.

The payouts for all online modes should be equivalent to each other and to offline mode*. If people want to grind in a room with their friends instead of against the Red Bulls, is that a problem?

*And offline modes should have reasonable payouts.
Basically, you should be able to drive whatever you want and not feel that you're gimping your ability to afford new cars by choosing to have fun. And those payouts should be balanced to maximise the feeling of reward from buying a new car and minimising the frustration of feeling that you need to work for it.

Yes I agree with this as well. Tougj, if you consider better, what you win even in career mode with login bonus allows you to buy very good cars. The seasonals help a lot as well. The Quick match is another strange experience which gives lots of money. But I agree we should habe better payouts for Online lobbies. Although it still allows us, as I said, to buy good cars even without grinding, if someone has login bonus, does the seasonals, some quick match races.. Well he has got 20 million already.

 

[JKgo]

After one year, these stats.
I guess I had my money's worth of game...
Still does not bore me.
No money glitches or other tricks, just racing, mostly Nurburgring 24' (with some 600 different cars right now, keeping track of fastest lap times, total times etc...) 640.000 Cr for less than half an hour racing.

The only thing I do not like are the coffee breaks (drifting and cones).
Just finished career mode for the second time around (using the same cars as the first time) just for fun.

About car prizes: some months ago a Ferrari 250 GTO (1962) came up for sale for a whopping $38.115.000.
Couldn't afford that i.r.l. so I bought my second one in the game. 20.000.000 Cr. is not that bad. Maybe not everyone playing GT6 can afford it ? Well, if you want it: play the game, work for it ... ;-)

Is GT6 complete ? No it is not. There is still a lot of work to do for PD. But it will come... in time ... maybe !?
Is it worth the money and the time ? You bet !

...................803+ mil credits earned?? Spent 119+ mil on mods??? Travelled 133.000 km???!!!!
.................... Holy 🤬 , you are one dedicated dude. I only have something like 350 mil on total credits earned but man, I pale in comparison to you, brother. 👍👍

 

[Imari]

GT teaches more from the ground, the most basics (how to overtake, the racing lines, braking points..) first.

If you want to believe that, go ahead. You clearly have no idea what sort of resources iRacing provides for driver training.

You might want to spend some time in the iRacing forum, or pick up a cheap subscription sometime. You'll be surprised. This is getting too far OT for me.

 

[photonrider]

This is getting too far OT for me.

It's like a virus that has spread through this Forum since we lost GT4.

So yes, let's talk the credit system.

Where does car-collecting fit into this? How did 'Justin' influence the credit system in GT5? If we didn't grind to keep up with the UCD we would miss the opportunity to buy a certain car. That added to the thrill? Or was it a chore? And how does the availability of cars effect the present credit system?
Do we need credits at all? Should we just level up and receive packages of cars and tuning options as we level up?

As for what GT6 really is . . . there is a discussion on that; I will boot it up shortly.

 

[FiftyBelowZero]

Do we need credits at all? Should we just level up and receive packages of cars and tuning options as we level up?

Yes, we need credits. If you think about it, the credit system is basically levelling up and receiving cars and tuning options; as an extra, we get to choose these cars we receive and the tuning we apply. Think metaphors.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yes, I need credits. If you think about it, the credit system is basically levelling up and receiving cars and tuning options; as an extra, I get to choose these cars we receive and the tuning I apply. Think metaphors.

Fixed that for you. I'd be perfectly happy without credits in the game, but even happier if you could play with credits and I could play without. 👍