Is GT7 fast becoming the worst of the GT Series?

[MroczMR]

I would love that sort of candidness and self awareness from PD

Sophy is the proof that PD is aware of AI problem. Difference from T10 is that PD is actually doing something and not only talking. Remember that turn10 was saying in promo materials that FM8 has te best AI ever etc, and it ended up being very very bad, and now after a backlash they admitted that AI is bad. That is not building any trust towards them for me.

They are communicating with the community. Disgusting.

Spoiler

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Well they shouldn’t lie in the first place.

 

[Strittan]

No I can't agree with that. GT4 was epic but 5 is my favourite. Great graphics and decent events (less than GT7 I might add).

Wow, really? The premium cars looked good I guess, that’s it.

 

[Peter.]

GT7 is really a case study on how significant of a role the way you use content can drastically change the way a game is experienced. The game simply underutilizes the more than reasonable quantity and high fidelity physics, tracks, cars, customization, tuning, dynamic time and weather, to such an extent that the experience feels like you have to artificially make it more interesting and treat the game like a sandbox, instead of being let loose into endless pathways of progressing and experiencing the game gradually and rewardingly.

The linearity of the progression suffered by the move from event categories and series, toward this scatter of disconnected events only ever held together partially by the Menu Book system that simplifies the single player experience. I am sure someone newer to the series might enjoy this in its own way, but for people that wanted a more encompassing or longer term experience, it is heavily lacking. This is probably the biggest way it falls short compared to other games. For instance, you can probably restart and play GT4 in a hundred different ways, and make good use of all the different classes and categories of cars long before you have to contend with some of the flaws of a bloated endgame of repetitive events and incredibly long endurance races that, while unique to the series, aren't exactly 'peak' gameplay.

That said I do think it suffers from the modern outrage heavy era that social media has proliferated. I think if they literally gave us GT4's structure and events but with the new game, it would be well received only in theory, but would ultimately be met with some of the complaints and nitpick that GT4 evaded due to its time in the social media era being mostly as a nostalgia vehicle. A bad prize car or even just the nature of the roulette tickets will drive so much more engagements, outrage, articles and such compared to getting a Pink Vitz for similarly long time commitments in GT3, or spending half an hour doing a One Make race in GT4 and getting the car you used to do it, or worse, getting a million credits for a twenty four hour (24hr) long event, all just because of the era we are living in.

I could discuss this at length, and it probably has already been, so in short I will just say that GT7 is an incredibly high quality game, with not enough reasons to play it at length. Still, I respect it deeply for the technical achievement it is and the effort PD have gone through to enhance it further despite it not being considered 'live service'. I hope that it is what GT3 was to GT4, a technical leap with limitations possible linked to the efforts of making that leap, that the future title will be able to expound upon and deliver a potential masterpiece. I have little to no reason not to anticipate GT8, or to expect that PD can deliver an incredible game.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Forza has less single player content and the things they add is just fomo,
both games have bad ai, sophy ai is better than both, i can agree on enviroments a bit that forza can have the uppger hand, but there is times where the forza tracks is inaccurate, witch was showcased with digital foundry camparsion

Yes but only the trees are not accurate. The tracks are accurate.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Sophy is the proof that PD is aware of AI problem. Difference from T10 is that PD is actually doing something and not only talking. Remember that turn10 was saying in promo materials that FM8 has te best AI ever etc, and it ended up being very very bad, and now after a backlash they admitted that AI is bad. That is not building any trust towards them for me.


Well they shouldn’t lie in the first place.

I said I would appreciate the candour from PD. Yamauchi never answers a question directly.

But regarding Sophy - is it acknowledging the AI flaws? Or is it just a side product of Sony AI needing a game as a test bed, and PD chasing headlines at tech talks?

I would argue that it's done purely for the perception of being on the cutting edge - because if PD were interested in improving their own AI, they would upskill or hire more competent programmers and be able to improve the AI in a matter of months.

Instead Sophy needs to be trained for every car/track/settings combination for it to be elite, and as this is not going to happen, its been tacked on to the stock AI, which is rubber banded, and sucks, which is why Sophy implementation has not matched the hype several years after its unveiling.

 

[jonoholland29]

Instead Sophy needs to be trained for every car/track/settings combination for it to be elite, and as this is not going to happen, its been tacked on to the stock AI, which is rubber banded, and sucks, which is why Sophy implementation has not matched the hype several years after its unveiling.

why would it not happen? That’s a finite thing that’s quite achievable.

 

[ShiftingGears]

why would it not happen? That’s a finite thing that’s quite achievable.

Because PD hasn't demonstrated that they can run a single race with a full grid of maxed out Sophy cars yet, let alone training them for the 40,000 track and car combinations in the game.

That's also ignoring parameters such as different combinations of AI cars within a race, different weather conditions, or any BoP variance.

 

[i386]

That’s a finite thing that’s quite achievable.

Training an ai bot even with a simpler track, car and physics model takes forever ().
There will be probably a playstation gr86 (in cooperation with toyota) before all combinations available in gt7 are trained for sophy

 

[jonoholland29]

But training Sophy is not a linear process, it’s exponential.

Once it's established rules for one thing it can move on to another subset. Sophy plays/races up to 20 cars all at once from one machine.

I'm not saying it'll be finished in 6 months, 12, 24 or whatever but saying never is just not true with the progress they've made already.

All of this so far is a beta and they've already got to a stage of scaling skill - again, not perfect

 

[Strittan]

Sophy is a fine idea and all, but the behaviour is very weird and not very realistic at times. Those who’ve raced against Sophy at la Sarthe know what I mean.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Once it's established rules for one thing it can move on to another subset. Sophy plays/races up to 20 cars all at once from one machine.

There's been no demonstration of this.

What is in the game isn't superhuman Sophy but downtuned, it is regular AI crossed with Sophy, which is why Sophy slows down when it's in front of you, speeds up when it's behind you, and loses power when it is trying to outdrag you to the finish line.

 

[jonoholland29]

It should be able to. But there's been no demonstration of this.

What is in the game isn't superhuman Sophy but downtuned, it is regular AI crossed with Sophy, which is why Sophy slows down when it's in front of you, speeds up when it's behind you, and loses power when it is trying to outdrag you to the finish line.

There has. This was explained in the Sophy AI video. This is how Sophy learns - I’m not talking about game implementation. I’m talking training the AI software.

It was a great video that I shall find the link for, but it explained how they develop Sophy. There was a bit where they were programming “overtaking points” and they realised if they just rewarded Sophy for overtaking, she would overtake a car, slow down, let it pass again then overtake it again over and over. So they had to make the penalty for being overtaken more severe than the reward for passing to stop the loop

 

[ShiftingGears]

There has. This was explained in the Sophy AI video. This is how Sophy learns - I’m not talking about game implementation. I’m talking training the AI software.

It was a great video that I shall find the link for, but it explained how they develop Sophy. There was a bit where they were programming “overtaking points” and they realised if they just rewarded Sophy for overtaking, she would overtake a car, slow down, let it pass again then overtake it again over and over. So they had to make the penalty for being overtaken more severe than the reward for passing to stop the loop

I am aware how it learns, but again I've seen no demonstration or suggestion of it running on a full grid in order to train it.

 

[Revengel]

But regarding Sophy - is it acknowledging the AI flaws? Or is it just a side product of Sony AI needing a game as a test bed, and PD chasing headlines at tech talks?

My take: not the case. They had an opportunity to use a next generation A.I. and embraced the chance.

I would argue that it's done purely for the perception of being on the cutting edge - because if PD were interested in improving their own AI, they would upskill or hire more competent programmers and be able to improve the AI in a matter of months.

But when there is a cutting edge/game-changing opportunity, a wise company accepts the challenge. Given the chance to have Sophy created vs. plugging away on their (collective) lonesome? I believe they made the correct choice.

Instead Sophy needs to be trained for every car/track/settings combination for it to be elite, and as this is not going to happen, its been tacked on to the stock AI, which is rubber banded, and sucks, which is why Sophy implementation has not matched the hype several years after its unveiling.

More on this in a moment, but I think you're missing something here. Sophy isn't tacked on to the stock AI; Sophy is separate. Also, Sophy has proven to be way better on the track than the best drivers in Gran Turismo repeatedly; during the Drive Together limited event for the most part the only way to beat Sophy one-on-one was to start ahead and either block the entire race or try to force the other car off track/force it to drive off track.

I am aware how it learns, but again I've seen no demonstration or suggestion of it running on a full grid in order to train it.

In this wonderful feature on GT Planet, there's a frank conversation about Sophy. From that article, Dr. Wurman says the following:

" Many said that it provided a game-changing racing experience and that racing GT Sophy resembled the best experience they had racing other humans in the online mode, but without the hassles. Many also requested the ability to turn down or modulate the skill so that they could find a level that matched their playing skill."

Here's where I think you've missed something that (gladly) PD didn't.

Sophy is now far more accessible, because the game is intended for a wide swath of users.

It's easy to be disappointed that you can't have the Sophy that beat the brakes off everyone from the Live Event circuit but remember it's mathematically likely you aren't at that same level and - therefore - would fare much worse than they did.

I can't quickly find the article (I thought it was on GT Planet in the last month, but I was incorrect) but the team has said that it's gotten easier to train Sophy on more cars and tracks.

As for Sophy controlling a full grid of cars, does that not include the car the player controls? Or are you looking for a demonstration where Sophy is racing as a full field of cars?

Hopefully I understood you accurately and you'll be able to do the same.

- Revengel

 

[Meythia]

I am aware how it learns, but again I've seen no demonstration or suggestion of it running on a full grid in order to train it.

Training the World’s Fastest Gran Turismo Racer – Sony AI

GT SOPHY TECHNICAL SERIES　Starting in 2020, the research and engineering team at Sony AI set out to do something that ha...

ai.sony

"To train a time trial agent, we used 10 PS4s, each running the game with 20 cars in a race evenly spaced around the track."

That is as close as you can get to official information.

 

[ShiftingGears]

My take: not the case. They had an opportunity to use a next generation A.I. and embraced the chance.

But when there is a cutting edge/game-changing opportunity, a wise company accepts the challenge. Given the chance to have Sophy created vs. plugging away on their (collective) lonesome? I believe they made the correct choice.

More on this in a moment, but I think you're missing something here. Sophy isn't tacked on to the stock AI; Sophy is separate. Also, Sophy has proven to be way better on the track than the best drivers in Gran Turismo repeatedly; during the Drive Together limited event for the most part the only way to beat Sophy one-on-one was to start ahead and either block the entire race or try to force the other car off track/force it to drive off track.

In this wonderful feature on GT Planet, there's a frank conversation about Sophy. From that article, Dr. Wurman says the following:

" Many said that it provided a game-changing racing experience and that racing GT Sophy resembled the best experience they had racing other humans in the online mode, but without the hassles. Many also requested the ability to turn down or modulate the skill so that they could find a level that matched their playing skill."

Here's where I think you've missed something that (gladly) PD didn't.

Sophy is now far more accessible, because the game is intended for a wide swath of users.

It's easy to be disappointed that you can't have the Sophy that beat the brakes off everyone from the Live Event circuit but remember it's mathematically likely you aren't at that same level and - therefore - would fare much worse than they did.

I didn't miss that - people requested Sophy to be modulated or match their skill, and "Sophy " as it stands does not do that. Currently it's just the stock AI, with better racecraft.

 

[AutumnalGlow]

Sophy is the proof that PD is aware of AI problem. Difference from T10 is that PD is actually doing something and not only talking. Remember that turn10 was saying in promo materials that FM8 has te best AI ever etc, and it ended up being very very bad, and now after a backlash they admitted that AI is bad. That is not building any trust towards them for me.


Well they shouldn’t lie in the first place.

Sophy has been in development since before GT7 released. Nearly a year since it was first available as a demo in GT7, it's still barely implemented in the game. Only on some tracks, the majority but not all cars, only in quick races. It needs to be trained on each car, meaning it likely isn't flexible enough to apply to new cars immediately, and it wouldn't be able to handle modified cars.

Forza Motorsport has been out for 3 months. Their AI needs work, but it's quick. It can't react well to other cars. If they can fix that, it will be on par with Sophy. Most importantly, it's already in the game. The whole game. They have communicated that they are aware of the issues and are working to fix them. This takes time. Are you not willing to give them the time that PD has had with Sophy? Or did you expect them to work a miracle in 3 months where PD hasn't been able to in the nearly 2 years since their game released?

 

[Ande3200]

Sophy has been in development since before GT7 released. Nearly a year since it was first available as a demo in GT7, it's still barely implemented in the game. Only on some tracks, the majority but not all cars, only in quick races. It needs to be trained on each car, meaning it likely isn't flexible enough to apply to new cars immediately, and it wouldn't be able to handle modified cars.

Forza Motorsport has been out for 3 months. Their AI needs work, but it's quick. It can't react well to other cars. If they can fix that, it will be on par with Sophy. Most importantly, it's already in the game. The whole game. They have communicated that they are aware of the issues and are working to fix them. This takes time. Are you not willing to give them the time that PD has had with Sophy? Or did you expect them to work a miracle in 3 months where PD hasn't been able to in the nearly 2 years since their game released?

But dont forget that turn 10 market as they has the best ai ever before release, most advanced racing game of all time, built from the ground up, pd does at least not makes claims like this or think they are better than anyone else, turn 10 talks like they are the only that have good advancements made and i think thats marketing is dusgusting

 

[ShiftingGears]

But dont forget that turn 10 market as they has the best ai ever before release, most advanced racing game of all time, built from the ground up, pd does at least not makes claims like this or think they are better than anyone else, turn 10 talks like they are the only that have good advancements made and i think thats marketing is dusgusting

Okay, and GT still markets itself as including groundbreaking Sophy AI despite Sophy 2.0 being nothing special. What is the difference?

 

[Meythia]

and GT still markets itself as including groundbreaking Sophy AI despite Sophy 2.0 being nothing special. What is the difference?

The difference is, that GT never marketed Sophy as being part of the game until Sophy 2 was part of the game.
+ https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/news/00_4176595.html

"The AI’s amazing driving ability was on display during demonstrations at live events such as the Gran Turismo World Series Showdown, but this new version, GT Sophy 2.0, can be set to support players of all levels. With sportsmanship in mind, the AI program has been designed to deliver fun and exciting racing experiences for everyone, from beginners to advanced racers.
...
We have evolved GT Sophy from a research project tackling the grand challenge of creating an AI agent that could outperform top drivers in a top simulation racing game to a functional game feature that provides all game players a formidable, human-like opponent that enhances the overall racing experience."

in which they (not PD!) dont say "our AI is the best in GT7", but "Sophy AI has been changed to make it more exciting for players of all skill leves" which means "basically it has been toned down, so you dont have to be world class".
Unfortunatly though, the Sophy Race together difficulty setting has not been included, I would have been curious to see it disappear and leaving me far behind.

 

[Ande3200]

Okay, and GT still markets itself as including groundbreaking Sophy AI despite Sophy 2.0 being nothing special. What is the difference?

They dont claim its the best ai ever, and we know its still in works, but its not wrong when you say sophy ai is one of the most advanced ai for racing games, sophy still needs work but its far better than fm ai,

I dont deny some of pd marketing for gt7 has been very wrong and the biggest one being the most complete gt to date witch i dont agree on, turn 10 takes things to extream when it comes to marketing, funny thing is that gt sport was more built from the ground up than the new fm, despite it was not that heavily market that way campared to fm,

 

[mr_pepps]

I'm really enjoying this version of GT.
Just wanted to chip in with that.

As you were.