Is SRF really that unrealistic?

[bluecharger]

PD is screwing so much up with tuning effects it's really hard to credit anything to them at the moment, but as Zenmervolt says, one of the bedrocks of prior PD philosophy has always been that tires can only give 100%.

 

[ShamrockGT]

I call BS on that but welcome you to support you statement with data logger

I believe faster in, faster around, and faster out. But I do see that maybe 99% see it differently, all using ABS though.

 

[ShamrockGT]

Total BS.. Sounds like a bogus bag drummed up to support your position, not based on anything but maybe your personal theories...

I ask this because this is what YOURE suggesting is occurring..

Please show me 2 laps, only difference is ABS-1/ABS-0.

Show me the ABS-1 lap faster with all speeds in the corners equal, only faster during the lap from start of breaking to start of turning. Good luck with that.. The feat would be impressive..

Do you want me to show you 2laps same conditions but faster with ABS-1 and getting higher speeds in the corners? That's not hard at all to do...


Got to love Data logger. Puts some outlandish theories to Bed.

Don't get me wrong, I'll look at any data to show otherwise, but all I have to do to see faster laps with ABS on is head over to the leader boards.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I call BS on that but welcome you to support you statement with data logger

The nice thing about reality is that it's true whether you call it BS or not.

I went out with a stock, no oil change, BRZ at Streets of Willow. Ran five laps ABS 0 and five ABS 1. ABS 1 was more consistent, and very slightly (0.051 seconds) faster. However, looking at the data logger that was due solely to a better line out of the final corner. Note that this is not "same line, more speed" but a better line. In other corners there was no significant difference, nor was one or the other consistently better across all corners.

There is no magical extra grip. ABS 1 didn't make the car faster in mid-corner or at corner-exit. All it did was give me more consistent corner entry lines.

This is in keeping with what everyone (except for you) has been saying. That ABS 1 does not give more grip in corners, only that it avoids lockup on corner entry and eases the modulation of the brake pedal.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The nice thing about reality is that it's true whether you call it BS or not.

I went out with a stock, no oil change, BRZ at Streets of Willow. Ran five laps ABS 0 and five ABS 1. ABS 1 was more consistent, and very slightly (0.051 seconds) faster. However, looking at the data logger that was due solely to a better line out of the final corner. Note that this is not "same line, more speed" but a better line. In other corners there was no significant difference, nor was one or the other consistently better across all corners.

There is no magical extra grip. ABS 1 didn't make the car faster in mid-corner or at corner-exit. All it did was give me more consistent corner entry lines.

This is in keeping with what everyone (except for you) has been saying. That ABS 1 does not give more grip in corners, only that it avoids lockup on corner entry and eases the modulation of the brake pedal.

Essentially this. One can look at ABS in GT as "perfect braking", in that it never locks and always provides the maximum braking effort to every tire. With ABS off you must do this manually and you have the added disadvantage that each side of the car brakes equally regardless of load. The front left and right have the same brake strength even if one is more loaded than the other. I can generally get within a half second fairly easily without ABS and sometimes match my ABS times. For the FT-1 TT I posted a time on my GTP account within 6/10ths without ABS vs. my ABS1 time, and I believe one of the top ten's was also without ABS.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

We should get @amar212 here for this ABS 1 vs ABS 0 debate

For tires equivalent between real life and GT6, the only way is by driving replicas, with a well built replica, it's easier to ascertain which tire is similar. I will post FEED Fujita Engineering RX7 on my garage soon, its a replica of the car that won the Tsukuba Superlap Battle in 2011. IRL, It was able to post 58.0xs on a street class, and best lap of mid 57s during test session 3 months after the event. The car had ADVAN A050 R spec G/S Compound tire, it's a semi slick soft compound that only last 3 laps at Tsukuba , and the equivalent tires in GT6 is somewhere between sports medium and sports soft I can match/better the mid 57s without any aids ( no brake assist ), of course by driving like in real life lap.

The FEED RX7 is an engineering marvel, with no weight reduction ( still has AC, stereo, H pattern shifter ), about 450PS, stock gearing with FEED own final gear. Not even rear diffuser, the only aero is a carbon rear wing.

 

[ShamrockGT]

I don't see any data... That's what's good about the data logger is you present the data for others to confirm.. No data, why????

Your test does nothing to support your position. You need to show faster laps with ABS on BUT the only time speed is higher is from start of braking to start of turning.

That is not even close, but nice try.

Your test doesn't show anything to even remote prove your claim based on your own interpretation.

You have not show any data??? It's not your interpretation of results that's truly important, but the results for us to interpret. That's a big GTP issue, most post interpretations of results and not the ACTUAL results...


May I suggest

Vehicle speed/Steering angle/Brake input/Throttle input/G-meter

Match position, stretch it out and run..

Show vid or upload files

I hope you realize I agree it does all you suggest, EXCEPT I see higher speed trailing into the corner / going around the corner / leaving the corner & leaving faster, means getting started on the straight at a higher speed resulting in going faster down the straight. All of this together results in faster lap times. Your suggestion that the laps all faster with higher speed only from start of braking to start of turning is somewhat absurd.

It's fine to disagree. Just don't tell me everybody who is faster with ABS on vs off are not faster in the corners. I certainly don't believe you base that load on impartial testing, how on earth did you test and determine this? Especially as you imply this is the case for most if not all ABS-1 drivers. Sounds like your coming up with theories to support your position.

ABS-1 is an assist, and using ABS-1 is not assist free driving those are Facts, but I imagine if all ABS-1 times were lumped together with SRF times, (as they should be) Only the few of us who drive no assist would be content, each one of us thinking "it's about time" and quite pleased.

There are just more ABS-1 drivers than ABS-0 I think more people would make the switch never looking back if the ABS-1 crowd weren't taking up most of the activity and all in favour of any theory or theoretical justification to support using ABS.

Important to understand ABS-1 or ABS-0 don't make any difference. How we each play is up to each of us. I don't mind being of the few who drive ABS-0, I don't feel it makes me any better than anybody else, but at the same time, I look at faster lap time with ABS-1 like faster times with SRF.

This thread just seems like it's trying to sell the idea that SRF may be or should be "accepted" like ABS-1

Why, because you enjoy driving with it turned on and would like more activity surrounding and supporting SRF as such.

It's bad enough people say "no assist" when using ABS-1, we don't need it to grow to "no assist, but ABS-1 & SRF.The guys Driving ABS-0 see ABS-1 the same way you ABS-1 guys see SRF...

 

[Zenmervolt]

I don't see any data... That's what's good about the data logger is you present the data for others to confirm.. No data, why????

I have posted exactly the same amount of data that you have posted, Jack Napier.

 

[mistersafeway]

I was thinking the same thing, @Zenmervolt, especially after the 'dancing...' line you posted. 👍 And I feel I should say, I rarely use ABS when I'm in lobbies tuning, and never have a major problem with consistency or people going faster. ABS is worth on average a few tenths a lap, just because I can attack the braking zones every time. There's no difference on a good lap.

 

[et_]

I don't see any data... That's what's good about the data logger is you present the data for others to confirm.. No data, why????

Your test does nothing to support your position. You need to show faster laps with ABS on BUT the only time speed is higher is from start of braking to start of turning.

That is not even close, but nice try.

Your test doesn't show anything to even remote prove your claim based on your own interpretation.

You have not show any data??? It's not your interpretation of results that's truly important, but the results for us to interpret. That's a big GTP issue, most post interpretations of results and not the ACTUAL results...


May I suggest

Vehicle speed/Steering angle/Brake input/Throttle input/G-meter

Match position, stretch it out and run..

Show vid or upload files

I hope you realize I agree it does all you suggest, EXCEPT I see higher speed trailing into the corner / going around the corner / leaving the corner & leaving faster, means getting started on the straight at a higher speed resulting in going faster down the straight. All of this together results in faster lap times. Your suggestion that the laps all faster with higher speed only from start of braking to start of turning is somewhat absurd.

It's fine to disagree. Just don't tell me everybody who is faster with ABS on vs off are not faster in the corners. I certainly don't believe you base that load on impartial testing, how on earth did you test and determine this? Especially as you imply this is the case for most if not all ABS-1 drivers. Sounds like your coming up with theories to support your position.

ABS-1 is an assist, and using ABS-1 is not assist free driving those are Facts, but I imagine if all ABS-1 times were lumped together with SRF times, (as they should be) Only the few of us who drive no assist would be content, each one of us thinking "it's about time" and quite pleased.

There are just more ABS-1 drivers than ABS-0 I think more people would make the switch never looking back if the ABS-1 crowd weren't taking up most of the activity and all in favour of any theory or theoretical justification to support using ABS.

Important to understand ABS-1 or ABS-0 don't make any difference. How we each play is up to each of us. I don't mind being of the few who drive ABS-0, I don't feel it makes me any better than anybody else, but at the same time, I look at faster lap time with ABS-1 like faster times with SRF.

This thread just seems like it's trying to sell the idea that SRF may be or should be "accepted" like ABS-1

Why, because you enjoy driving with it turned on and would like more activity surrounding and supporting SRF as such.

It's bad enough people say "no assist" when using ABS-1, we don't need it to grow to "no assist, but ABS-1 & SRF.The guys Driving ABS-0 see ABS-1 the same way you ABS-1 guys see SRF...

I seriously hope It's not like this arguing with me regarding the SRF!

ABS does'nt make you faster, but it becomes alot easier, and thats why almost everyone at the top of the leaderboard uses it. Enough of the ABS arguing, it's far from what the SRF does and hence it's too offtopic imo.

edit: @Ridox2JZGTE : yeah, thats what I was thinking, ADVAN A050 R spec is like a SS tyre in-game. Let me know when you're done with that RX7, should be fun to see what I can do around Tsukuba. I reckon 3 sec faster should be realistic considering everything.

 

[Vagabond]

May I suggest...

And may I suggest you find something better to do with your time? You are not now, nor will ever be, welcome back at GTPlanet. You've pissed on your chips so many times, they're not chips any more, they're piss-and-potato soup. Find something better to do with your time; you must realise by now that even if some of the annoying assertions you make had even a grain of truth to them, no-one cares and no-one will ever listen.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Shame on me I never realized Jack was back

 

[et_]

Who's Jack, and what have @ShamrockGT done to desterve a ban?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Who's Jack, and what have @ShamrockGT done to desterve a ban?

Only mods know for sure why he's banned, you'd have to ask them. IMO he was basically a troll, ignoring everyone's counterpoints and just continuing on to push his flawed theories of GT6 physics despite all evidence to the contrary. Sort of like this discussion on SRF being more realistic.

 

[bluecharger]

Sort of like this discussion on SRF being more realistic.

I do give et credit for asking an unpopular question, and I understand the possibility of the premise. Some of the arguments from both sides have gone a bit far afield, IMO, and my eyes start to drop and/or roll a bit when real-world examples are dragged in, but I think it's been fairly entertaining and at times even informative, from both sides.

 

[et_]

Yeah, It is a weird idea, but in the end I think most people (not all) understood what I meant, and that's the important part, not to get them to agree.

"You plant a seed in peoples minds, and in time, it will grow on them"

edit. @Johnnypenso : having a strong opinion is'nt reason for a ban. Sure if he is just trolling and only want an arguement, then I'd understand it tho, but you got to be pretty certain about it. And of course, I dont know the full story here, but it seems to me that with only 38 posts, he could'nt have done that much damage?

 

[Zenmervolt]

edit. @Johnnypenso : having a strong opinion is'nt reason for a ban. Sure if he is just trolling and only want an arguement, then I'd understand it tho, but you got to be pretty certain about it. And of course, I dont know the full story here, but it seems to me that with only 38 posts, he could'nt have done that much damage?

He's had several different user names since his original ban; I think the count is now at five. The issue wasn't a strong opinion (if those got one banned I'd have been tossed out long ago), but rather that he seemed to be posting only to stir up trouble. He'd take a position and then call anyone who didn't agree with him an idiot or incompetent or a combination of the two.

You've posted a strong opinion but have been intelligent and respectful in you explication and defense of it. Jack wasn't.

EDIT: I'm not a mod, I'm just giving my own observations.

 

[bluecharger]

Hey et, I may have just found another "benefit" of SRF (yeah, like it needs another). I was just messing around with the Subaru S206, thinking of setting some saved times on the 'Ring to reference for other potential entrants, and the funniest(?) thing happened. I usually have this car set for TC2, ABS1, and SRF because I use it for the 24 minute race. That's all it's done, and it's done it 9 times now. Well previously in these threads I've mentioned that I've now front-flipped three Peugeots and an Audi TT....all of those were in tuning stages and I was seeing if they'd be appropriate for the Nurburgring run (always looking for cheap cars)....I turn SRF off for tuning. Well....since the S206 didn't have to do the rainy portion for my running about, I had the car set at only ABS, no other aids. And flipped the car on the curbing....twice. In 9 runs for 27 laps of Nurburgring, I've never flipped that car. Things that make ya go hmmmmm....

 

[turdhat]

I do not know how many of you are using a wheel. With SRF on it really takes the life out of the car. The cars do not bite back with near the aggression when you take them over the edge. When at the edge of traction you do not get as much info through the steering wheel with SRF on. This is the reason for having all aids off in Gt6 with a wheel.

Each aid you enable masks or mutes some level of the Force Feedback and part of the fun is having the cars get wiggly when you give too much pedal and having that come back through the wheel. You really get more of a "oh crap, crap, crap !!" moment and that is fun. When you can save it that is. Is it just me or is the game setup to make sure you face the wrong way in 95% of all spin outs ?

 

[et_]

Hey et, I may have just found another "benefit" of SRF (yeah, like it needs another). I was just messing around with the Subaru S206, thinking of setting some saved times on the 'Ring to reference for other potential entrants, and the funniest(?) thing happened. I usually have this car set for TC2, ABS1, and SRF because I use it for the 24 minute race. That's all it's done, and it's done it 9 times now. Well previously in these threads I've mentioned that I've now front-flipped three Peugeots and an Audi TT....all of those were in tuning stages and I was seeing if they'd be appropriate for the Nurburgring run (always looking for cheap cars)....I turn SRF off for tuning. Well....since the S206 didn't have to do the rainy portion for my running about, I had the car set at only ABS, no other aids. And flipped the car on the curbing....twice. In 9 runs for 27 laps of Nurburgring, I've never flipped that car. Things that make ya go hmmmmm....

I also noticed its different if you're online or offline, the car will never flip when you are in an online lobby.

I do not know how many of you are using a wheel. With SRF on it really takes the life out of the car. The cars do not bite back with near the aggression when you take them over the edge. When at the edge of traction you do not get as much info through the steering wheel with SRF on. This is the reason for having all aids off in Gt6 with a wheel.

Each aid you enable masks or mutes some level of the Force Feedback and part of the fun is having the cars get wiggly when you give too much pedal and having that come back through the wheel. You really get more of a "oh crap, crap, crap !!" moment and that is fun. When you can save it that is. Is it just me or is the game setup to make sure you face the wrong way in 95% of all spin outs ?

I agree with you, it might give a bit less feel, and the fastest way to drive is more of like "turn first, think later"
but it does bite back ferociously when you step over the line. The line is moved further away so you can push more, but once you cross it, the punishment is more severe with SRF ON than it is with SRF OFF.

 

[ukmadmax]

Has SRF been an option throughout the GT series ?
I only came in at GT5 .

 

[JujiroMatsuda]

I kind of suspected he was Jack when he first appeared on FITT thread. I don't really know what he did apart from few bits n peaces I saw on infamous "camber" thread but he actually contributed, either inadvertently or not, to unlock the lowest FG optimised acceleration method so I'm kinda grateful for that cause, just for once.lol

Might as well I'm here I'll give my 2 cents for SRF topic.

I'm sure this was mentioned much earlier, but the fact why I think SRF handling is weird is that front grip and rear grip gains/loses alternately - this was quite pronounced when I was doing Scirocco TT event awhile ago. As I turn into a corner, the front loses, bites, loses again, bites again. The rear does the same, alternately. The car jiggles in a way. So if I wanted to turn sharper, I had to time it right, when the front of the car jiggled inward I gave a throttle, when it jiggled away I backed off. Throttle on&off, on&off. The car jiggled like a snake. I was thinking "Now I'm pretty sure this is not the right way of cornering an FF car!"

I only had that same experience when I was playing GT5 with Nissan R34 GTR with SM tyre on front, SH tyre on rear. The car was heavy at front and had a lot of understeer so I fit one less grade tyres on rear and the car had that manoeuvre, it tried to oversteer but the front lost grip as soon as the rear tried to step out. The front and back swayed alternately.

I drive without SRF now and always wear same tyres all round and never had that experience again.

 

[bluecharger]

Has SRF been an option throughout the GT series ?
I only came in at GT5 .

I don't remember it existing before GT5.

Jujiro: Any time I've had the wiggle you're talking about, I usually can get rid of it by softening the chassis a bit. As I use SRF for 24Nurb I test for this because the last thing I want on the rain lap is one end loose while the other end's turning/pushing. As for mixing the tire types, I haven't found a race long enough here yet to need to try that .

 

[Urbanliner]

Kaz intended the SRF to as a assist for newbies (or "the power of a god"), so nope.

 

[holtzy08si]

OP... I was pondering the same exact thing a while ago but I came to the conclusion that it more than affects grip like some tend to believe. I think it also affects weight, momentum, and acceleration of the car, but not proportionally. I don't quite know how to explain it but it kind of like adding power, doing weight reduction, and putting on softer tires all at the same time. The question I have is: If you have SRF on do the AI cars also have it on?

 

[bluecharger]

OP... I was pondering the same exact thing a while ago but I came to the conclusion that it more than affects grip like some tend to believe. I think it also affects weight, momentum, and acceleration of the car, but not proportionally. I don't quite know how to explain it but it kind of like adding power, doing weight reduction, and putting on softer tires all at the same time. The question I have is: If you have SRF on do the AI cars also have it on?

I don't think anyone knows what the AI are on

 

[light driver]

It`s a little funny how all You people still discuss this thing, as if GT6 was a true driving simulator...Somebody (more than one of You) have said, "that IRL there is not such a force that saves a car and give it back the grip, when it starts to skid" Thats true but...IRL a car does not skid anywhere near as much as a "car" (an electronic interpretation of a car) does im Gran Turismo....

If You take a walk around the town where You live, You do not hear any tyre whining/screeching/skidding at all...Why? - Because driving a car IRL is waaay easier than in GT...OK people don`t race at max around Your home town, they drive nice and slow...BUT the tyres they drive on, are not racing tyres. It`s every day tyres...And even in rain, You don`t see cars skidding/crashing around do You???

Your grandma can drive her car around in heavy rain, stuffing her mouth with licorice, AND speak in her cellphone at the same time, without the slightest skidding, with worn tyres...IRL cars have TREMENDOUS grip....Again; there is a difference between the powerfull cars we drive in GT, and Your grannys low powered FF model...YES...But again, her tyres are worn out street tyres, and I guarantee You that her 4 tyres has 4 different airpressures to them...She doesn`t have racing slicks on a one-way race track. The traction on a town road full of holes and water piddles somehow makes up for that..

Can You imagine HOW MANY people would be killed in IRL traffic every time it rained, if the "driving physics" from GT6 (or earlier versions) were true??? lol...Well in my little sleepy Danish town I`d say a rainy day would cause approx 5000 casualties in the traffic if those GT driving physics were true...Glad I don`t live in London o r New York then...2-3 mio crashes with/without deadly ending on a rainy day....

So SRF is of course way more realistic than no SRF...Me??? I don`t use SRF, surprisingly....Reason? It would make me "uncool", and unsharp....I really WANT to use it, but I don`t....

Hey Formula 1 IRL....They don`t skid....OK sometimes they skid a few meters, but thats a mistake, and they recover from it immediatly. The smoke You see from the tyres in F1 is due to max braking, and when they leave the pit with spinning wheels....

But my point is that SRF is not "realistic" because such a "skid recovery force" that catches a car when it skids, does not exist. On the other hand; cars simply do not skid anywhere as much IRL than they do in GT...Therefore SRF is more realistic than no SRF....Also due to PD`s "interpretation" of rain...

Oh someone asked if SRF was always in GT, or if it came with GT5??? Well I started with GT5Prologue, and as far as I recall there was not a SRF, BUT there was something else...."Standard" or "Proffessional" You could choose from..."Standard" was....The exact same thing as SRF...On the leaderbords (time trial in arcade mode when online) everybody used "Standard"....In the earlier GT series I don`t think there was an option to turn on/off "SRF" or "Standard" "Proffessional" - It was simply turned on, and it had no name....In GT5Prologue they came up with the idea of making the cars harder to control, and the option to turn it on or off....In GT5 they finally dubbed it SRF....meeeeh I think I`m right, but not 100% sure

 

[Johnnypenso]

Your grandma can drive her car around in heavy rain, stuffing her mouth with licorice, AND speak in her cellphone at the same time, without the slightest skidding, with worn tyres...IRL cars have TREMENDOUS grip....Again; there is a difference between the powerfull cars we drive in GT, and Your grannys low powered FF model...YES...But again, her tyres are worn out street tyres, and I guarantee You that her 4 tyres has 4 different airpressures to them...She doesn`t have racing slicks on a one-way race track. The traction on a town road full of holes and water piddles somehow makes up for that..

Your Grandma is setting a bad example if she's talking with her mouth full on the cellphone while driving...bad manners old chap.

Anyway, you can't compare driving on the streets nowhere near the limit to driving on the track at the limit, which is what we're doing in the game. 6 seconds out of pit lane in 2nd gear and we're already going faster than most people will ever go in a car in their entire life. Drive a car in Gran Turismo around a track at 60 km/h and it sticks like glue just like a real car.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

...So SRF is of course way more realistic than no SRF...Me??? I don`t use SRF, surprisingly....Reason? It would make me "uncool", and unsharp....I really WANT to use it, but I don`t.......

Why would you care?

In my room the fastest drivers all use SRF. My room fills up every night soon after I start it. SRF is just more fun!

Let's all face reality here. It is a fake car, on pretend tires with no real link to realism. It is all just pretend.

But what a blast it is to zoom around, side by side, in a 425pp car with pretend racing soft tires!!!

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Your lobbies lack corner rights, Chrunch. Running around with Racing softs, SRF, and the list of everything with no respect for corner rights isn't everyone's cup of tea.


425pp with RS tires is basically 95% full-throttle. This means you get up a lot of speed while going into braking zones. The person behind you has invincible grip, and you get instant dive-bombing.



If that's your idea of fun, enjoy it, but I won't/don't. SRF is just another problem with your lobby... Which would be better sorted with proper driving styles, because right now it's all about who brakes latest.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

@ITCC_Andrew
You were in my room 1 time about 8 months ago. (Might have been much longer) for about 20 minutes.

I run an open room and can not control everyone that joins.

I really don't remember why you got ran over.

I don't even remember what your name was back then since you have changed it since then.

I hope you have fun trying to find fun rooms online.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

All I'm saying, is that the sort of racing which SRF produces is lacklustre. It's overly forgiving to "jerk" driving. If you try to outbrake someone who's driving reasonably, SRF gives you more grip, meaning that you can stick your nose in places it doesn't belong.


We're discussing SRF. I'm using your rooms as an example. In ITCC (SRF off) yesterday, we had one accidental divebomb. The guy gave the spot back and apologized after for his mistake. He got a warning, but nothing more.


But, every lap, I was being divebombed and taken out by the drivers in your lobby, simply because I was the only guy in the lobby who refused to run with SRF on. SRF = dive bomber's little helper. It allows people to try to execute ridiculous late braking moves, which - outside of some SRF-enabled world - tend to lead to some horrifying crashes...

The blue car in the center braked too late and hit the blue car on the left. This sent the blue car on the left skidding. Or, in F1, for example, look no further than the most recent F1 flip - it was also caused by late-braking.

The point I'm making, is that, because you [and you have every right to do so] run your lobby with SRF on, with Racing Softs, everyone thinks they're Senna's reincarnation and dives into every corner yelling something between "BANZAI!" or "COWABUNGA!"