Is SRF really that unrealistic?

[Saidur_Ali]

Less of course, breaking traction slows you down, both IRL, SRF ON and OFF.

So why do think SRF is realistic with same car and tyre that it gives you more grip in them conditions but in real life in them conditions you would do opposite, same as with SRF off. The only reason why you can drive faster with SRF in GT6 is because you are exceeding the limit of grip with that same car setup and being rewarded for it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The second part is why I think SRF could be a viable assist for less trained players. I quoted the InsideSimRacing comparison between GT6 and Forza 5 on page 3 and his critique on GT6 was a lack of feedback for the limit of grip. With enough practice you learn to be sensible enough, sure. But GT might be a little too hard in this regard to be realistic. Just to be clear: I don't say SRF is the realistic way to do it, probably not. But as compensation for some deficits of the simulation it might be justified.

I liken SRF for newer or less skilled players to training wheels on a bike. Ever see kids who have "helicopter parents", you know the kind that always hovering over their kids, God forbid they get a scratch or a bruise type parents? Ever see them and their kids with training wheels on their bikes at 4,5,6 years old? I have, I'm surrounded by them, or I was. When I was a kid it was shameful over the age of 4 to have training wheels, your parents took them off whether you liked it or not, and you learned to ride. To the best of my knowledge, every single kid in the history of the world learned how to ride a bike as soon as the training wheels were taken off. I don't know of any personally that gave up riding a bike because the training wheels came off and they dummied themselves.

To me SRF is the same. If you learn to drive with SRF or training wheels, you just pick up all the bad habits that come with it, like relying on the back wheels to balance you instead of your natural instincts. Start the game without SRF and you'll never need it. Use it to learn how to drive and come to rely on it, and you may never be able to make the transition. I think this is why there are so few Open Lobbies with Sports Hards, let along Comfort tires, because it's just too difficult for drivers that used SRF to control their cars once the training wheels come off.

Don't get me wrong, I think it should still be in the game for those that want it, but if you want to learn how to really drive cars and find your limits, SRF has no place in your repetoire, unless it's forced on you of course.

Less of course, breaking traction slows you down, both IRL, SRF ON and OFF.

Either you're an obvious troll or...well you don't want to hear the other part...lol. SRF is faster, and breaking the normal limits of traction that you would have with SRF off, when SRF is on, is the best way to exploit SRF. This is a fact, not subject to debate.

 

[et_]

So why do think SRF is realistic with same car and tyre that it gives you more grip in them conditions but in real life in them conditions you would do opposite, same as with SRF off. The only reason why you can drive faster with SRF in GT6 is because you are exceeding the limit of grip with that same car setup and being rewarded for it.

Because I dont think that is how it works, when I have SRF OFF, the car lets go more easily, but it does'nt slow me down, with SRF ON it does'nt let go that easy, but when it does, I am slowed down conciderably. hence, in a way, SRF ON is harder to drive fast to some degree.

 

[t3kc0h]

Less of course, breaking traction slows you down, both IRL, SRF ON and OFF.

This is not entirely true. Take touge driving. They go faster around the corner while sliding.

 

[et_]

Either you're an obvious troll or...well you don't want to hear the other part...lol. SRF is faster, and breaking the normal limits of traction that you would have with SRF off, when SRF is on, is the best way to exploit SRF. This is a fact, not subject to debate.

There is no doubt SRF is faster, and delivers more grip, but with SRF comes a new grip limit, just as a softer tyre would. and that new SRF limit feels more IRL than the other one. I dont know how else to put it...

This is not entirely true. Take touge driving. They go faster around the corner while sliding.

That seems like someting they do just to make it look better on tv. only way I can imagine that being faster is if the road is EXTREMELY dirty.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Because I dont think that is how it works, when I have SRF OFF, the car lets go more easily, but it does'nt slow me down, with SRF ON it does'nt let go that easy, but when it does, I am slowed down conciderably. hence, in a way, SRF ON is harder to drive fast to some degree.

That is no surprise, imagine driving car on track within limit of car and tyres and sometimes exceeding it, it will cost you time if you make a mistake but you can recover from it. Now imagine if you are driving car beyond its possible limit with them tyres and then this imaginary force stops working, it is going to be a violent reaction. I too find driving with SRF harder to drive to limit as it is much harder to achieve to get this magical force to work to its maximum all the way through the lap.

 

[watermelon punch]

I didn't learn to ride a bike until probably 10 years old, but my parents didn't allow me training wheels at all. I learned on an adult 10 speed racing bike. And I wound up using a mountain bicycle for transportation for nearly my entire 20s.

Anyhow, I do recall my parents saying training wheels just teach bad habits.

I don't know if I see a full similarity with that and SRF. But I do think it's harder to really get the most out of SRF if you're used to having it off.

I think SRF is more for people who are looking to play a racing game in a type of arcade-like way with faster cars that require a lot of nuanced control.
And that's not wrong of course, if that's what you want to do.

But it will make a handful of a car easier to drive faster without spinning out. There's no doubt about that.

SRF is about stopping skidding after it's too late!! (Or should've been too late to recover from.)
SKID RECOVERY FORCE.
IE: a force that can have you recover from skidding out after it would've been too late !!

As for traction slowing you down in the corners.
Yes, traction control, will definitely slow you down in the corners... Pumped up to the default 5 on some cars, you'll wind up feeling like you're in a time warp mid-corner.
But traction control is different than SRF. They're 2 totally different aids altogether.

 

[t3kc0h]

There is no doubt SRF is faster, and delivers more grip, but with SRF comes a new grip limit, just as a softer tyre would. and that new SRF limit feels more IRL than the other one. I dont know how else to put it...


That seems like someting they do just to make it look better on tv. only way I can imagine that being faster is if the road is EXTREMELY dirty.

It's faster for a variety of reason which are not on topic.

The wheels push them forward AND towards the inside of the corner. Hence pushing them into the corner. And if you do it right, you can be faster sideways than grip racing.

 

[et_]

SRF is about stopping skidding after it's too late!! (Or should've been too late to recover from.)
SKID RECOVERY FORCE.
IE: a force that can have you recover from skidding out after it would've been too late !!

Yup, but it takes away that increased grip once the car slides too much, and that is what started it all, its not acting like a "skid recovery force" its more acting like a "gradually increasing grip until you loose it" function.

It's faster for a variety of reason which are not on topic.

The wheels push them forward AND towards the inside of the corner. Hence pushing them into the corner. And if you do it right, you can be faster sideways than grip racing.

There is no way you'll be able to convince me (or anyone else here?) that is true, and its too off topic. So lets just leave it at that?

 

[watermelon punch]

Yup, but it takes away that increased grip once the car slides too much, and that is what started it all, its not acting like a "skid recovery force" its more acting like a "gradually increasing grip until you loose it" function.

Well if you could never ever spin out at all ever... not sure it would make much sense to even have cars.
Then we would have Gran Turismo Railroad Train Edition.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yup, but it takes away that increased grip once the car slides too much, and that is what started it all, its not acting like a "skid recovery force" its more acting like a "gradually increasing grip until you loose it" function.

I have no idea what you're getting at. Of course the car can slide too much and you eventually lose control no matter what aids you use, it's not infinite grip like @watermelonpunch says, it's just more grip after the grip you would get without SRF is exceeded. It still has it's limits it's not magic fairy dust, the limits are just higher than they are without SRF.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I have no idea what you're getting at. Of course the car can slide too much and you eventually lose control no matter what aids you use, it's not infinite grip like @watermelonpunch says, it's just more grip after the grip you would get without SRF is exceeded. It still has it's limits it's not magic fairy dust, the limits are just higher than they are without SRF.

This. It's sort of like having one step grippier tires, though not completely.

Perhaps the best way to look at it is as allowing the tires to hold on at higher slip angles before letting go entirely. For example, if, without SRF, the particular car/tire combination would only hold its line at up to, say, 10 degrees of slip angle before breaking away completely and spinning (or understeering off the track), turning on SRF might allow 13 degrees of slip angle before "letting go." This makes it easier to catch the car if it starts to go into high slip angles.

 

[Johnnypenso]

This. It's sort of like having one step grippier tires, though not completely.

Perhaps the best way to look at it is as allowing the tires to hold on at higher slip angles before letting go entirely. For example, if, without SRF, the particular car/tire combination would only hold its line at up to, say, 10 degrees of slip angle before breaking away completely and spinning (or understeering off the track), turning on SRF might allow 13 degrees of slip angle before "letting go." This makes it easier to catch the car if it starts to go into high slip angles.

Yes. It also allows you to be much more aggressive on corner entry, throwing the rear end out to get the car to rotate faster, and then getting the power down earlier because you get pointed in the right direction more quickly and have more grip on exit.

 

[et_]

I have no idea what you're getting at. Of course the car can slide too much and you eventually lose control no matter what aids you use, it's not infinite grip like @watermelonpunch says, it's just more grip after the grip you would get without SRF is exceeded. It still has it's limits it's not magic fairy dust, the limits are just higher than they are without SRF.

magic fairy dust is exactly what people was calling it, but I see where your getting at. but the angle where the grip is reduced is lower WITH SRF. (look at the chart) meaning, SRF gives you more grip, so you can corner faster, but the angle where is starts to let go is lower than it would be without srf.

Lets say you have tyres that can produce 1.5G before letting go at say 10 degrees.
SRF makes you able to corner at 1.8G but it lets go at only 7 degrees.

Thanks @Zenmervolt tor the example

 

[Wide Boy]

I for sure think SRF off is more realistic but are you saying the transition when losing grip feels wrong to you with it off but correct when its on?
You also say you lose more speed when sliding with SRF on rather than off if I understand correctly.

SRF in my view gives extra grip just before the tyre lets go & then a bigger boost once it lets go.
What this means is it gives you extra time to catch the car if it starts to slide or you start to spin the wheels under power.
I would not say its a smoother transition but its a bigger transition zone letting you catch the car more easily.
It is in fact as it says probably a very good aid for new drivers because of this.

Zenmervolt said
This. It's sort of like having one step grippier tires, though not completely.

So more like grippier with a nicer falloff especially with racing tyres where the transition is more pronounced in GT

 

[Ettick]

I've only ever turned on SRF in GT4 while driving the 88C-V because the car would spin out due to force feedback above 220~mph

It's unrealistic in its name alone, unless you make some sort of weird centrifuge contraption I don't think you'd ever be able to actually apply a force to a car in order to make it stop skidding in real life.

Whether or not it makes cars handle more realistically is another question however.

Anyways, I tend to slide into corners on purpose a lot, SRF could screw that up, so I don't think I'll use it.

 

[et_]

I for sure think SRF off is more realistic but are you saying the transition when losing grip feels wrong to you with it off but correct when its on?
You also say you lose more speed when sliding with SRF on rather than off if I understand correctly.

SRF in my view gives extra grip just before the tyre lets go & then a bigger boost once it lets go.
What this means is it gives you extra time to catch the car if it starts to slide or you start to spin the wheels under power.
I would not say its a smoother transition but its a bigger transition zone letting you catch the car more easily.
It is in fact as it says probably a very good aid for new drivers because of this.



So more like grippier with a nicer falloff especially with racing tyres where the transition is more pronounced in GT

I think the transition between gripping and sliding is closer to reaity when SRF is ON, yes. that still does'nt mean its exactley like reality.

The marked part, yes, exactley, but it also lets go a bit sooner, and punishes you more, so if anything, the time to catch the slide becomes smaller (when I say this, it stirkes me, when I say "catch it" I dont mean save you from spinning out, I mean save you from loosing time, there might be a difference...)

And @Ettick : to clarify, this is for GT6 only, as the SRF in GT5 (and earlier) was way different. back then, it really was a "skid recovery force" the fastest way was to throw it sideways and let SRF catch it, thats not the case here.

 

[Samus]

So why are the fastest laps still driven that way in GT6?

 

[eclipsee]

I don't know if SRF in GT6 is more realistic or not because I don't have any real track experience, anyway, I agree with the tire behaviour that @et_ describes, I don't feel any skid recovery force as the aid defines, it's evident that with SRF we have more grip but when the traction breaks, the tire is more snappy and there's a small window to recover the traction (less slip angle than without SRF) , I don't feel any magic force that recovers it, if I'm too much optimistic with the gas pedal then the tire spins, and if I'm not quick enough with the steering wheel and lifting the gas pedal I end up pointing backwards or visiting the fence, to me, SRF in GT6 is just grippier / upgraded tires, nothing else, moreover, the magical recovering grip that some of you describe is what I felt using SRF in GT5, in GT6 it doesn't exist, don't ask me for proofs because I don't have them, it's just what I feel.

Polyphony Digital are masters at explaining wrong what their particular aids do, or at setting things backwards or broken, I take with a grain of salt anything what they say, starting from the point of "The Real Driving Simulator" self-definition of the game, I play with the tools they supply and I take my own conclusions, that's all, it's like the Active Steering aid, THIS is the true skid recovery force aid and very noticeable, I would have called it LSRF, Lateral Skid Recovery Force.

 

[bluecharger]

Well Eclipsee just said everything and maybe more than I had thought about whilst outside setting up my porch for the day. I'll add that the only problem with SRF is our general desire to compete and discuss all this online. Maybe if PD would set up a division between SRF users and abstainers we'd try more of what the others are doing and be less bombastic about it all. Maybe a selection to be made on career day one: "Do you wish to use SRF ever?" and you make your peace with whatever you choose. It couldn't hurt the desire to replay the game, which this game "as is" certainly doesn't encourage at the moment.

I often feel as though there IS a "track" that PD "wants" the car to follow, and gives it a bit of help from time to time, SRF on or not. But definitely with it on. This thought is quadrupled when tires "come in", or hit the sweet spot in wear. I get this every time I do the 24 minutes of the 'Ring on the last lap because I use racing softs throughout the race (I'm there to win cash as quickly as possible with whatever fun there is to be had doing a race 30+ times, not for YouTube quality replays for you all to dissect) and depending on which car I use (usually some variant of Subaru) by the time I'm in turn 4 or 5 on lap 3, I'm scootin'. I know hillbilly isn't acceptable here, by that's the only way to describe it for me. I'm doing corners easily 10mph faster than lap 1, accelerating like I use Nitrous, and there will ALWAYS come a point where I simply can't keep up with the scenery anymore and slip up a bit. This doesn't end the insanity, but it usually dials it back a bit. It's not just me, I can do 10 laps in test drive mode and never hit that point. And without wearing the tires to 8 or 7, the laps are consistent. This game has a built in slider that slows time, speeds images, increases allowances.....we just never see an explanation for it. My belief at this point is SRF taps into some of that and keeps us "on track" more than we generally realize. I generally can tune a bit more or less oversteer into an SRF-enable car whenever I need to, so it's not a rigid "railroad track", I just like the cars (in general) with it on. Usually.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Use sports tire ( semi slick ) and SRF in the rain, that's where the magical force can really be felt when it just started to slip There's nothing in this world that can grip in the rain like SRF does.

 

[Scaff]

1. if SRF gives you magic grip at a certain point, the transition should be more noticable, if grip physics is altered altogether, who says one way is right and the other is'nt. GT6 does'nt feel that realistic no matter if its on or off.

It is noticeable, particularity at lower speeds, which would be why its been mentioned by a good number of members in this thread (you seem to keep ignoring that however).

Its totally obvious at Goodwood in higher torque vehicles, when you can loose traction and then suddenly the car gets a bucket load of additional grip and your line tightens in a totally unrealistic manner.

2. my track time is limited, although I have been to a track a number of times, that still gives me some experience.

Clearly not enough, and as they say a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

3. I'm not ignoring anything, but people are not reading OP/misunderstands it. and the responds from some people are not accurate, Fact is we're all agreed on most parts.

You have ignored a good number of responses (some of mine include, and have repeatedly turned people saying it suddenly gives you more grip into them saying it gives you a higher level of grip. These are totally different things.

4. I have not shown any evidence, because there is no evidence, but I don't think you have any evidence to prove otherwise either?

Your incorrectly labeled graph? That would be one you have shown and it seems used to misrepresent or misunderstand how tyre work. As for evidence against it being more realistic, well you forget that the developers clearly say as much (which would be a rather strong indicator) and then the rather large amount of observational evidence from those posting in here (you know the ones you keep ignoring or changing).

5. I've not changed the opposing view one bit as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sorry but you have.

6. I'm sorry for the atitude, but it was not directed to anyone in particular.

Who it was or wasn't directed at doesn't matter, please do not do it again.

It's faster for a variety of reason which are not on topic.

Citation required.

The wheels push them forward AND towards the inside of the corner. Hence pushing them into the corner. And if you do it right, you can be faster sideways than grip racing.

Apart from in the very tightest of hairpins that is simply not true at all (and these tight hairpins are more of a diff issue than a tyre issue). A car will always corner quickest when the slip angle is at its peak on all four corners, that by definition means the car is not sideways. The moment you exceed that peak slip angle (on any of the four corners) you loose available vertical and lateral load and therefore grip.

 

[MX5Racer69]

There is an awful amount of speculation in this thread. Without data, it's all kind of pointless. But I'll say this. The behavior the OP describes is consistent with the tires as you go from standard all-season street tires up to R compound slicks. So I'll add a little more speculation. What if the model simply extends beyond real tires into mystical fairy tires? They have more grip but also let go more abruptly. Perhaps that's what you get when you turn SRF on?

I don't know. Never use it myself.

 

[Vagabond]

This is the most ridiculous discussion currently in the GT6 section of GTPlanet. That's quite a lofty position to occupy.

 

[bluecharger]

This is the most ridiculous discussion currently in the GT6 section of GTPlanet. That's quite a lofty position to occupy.

I was kind of hoping someone with PD would see it and sweep in and explain all. (<< that's me)

 

[Vagabond]

I was kind of hoping someone with PD would see it and sweep in and explain all. (<< that's me)

...and this has to go top 3 Most Unrealistic Expectations Hopes Ever. 👍

 

[bluecharger]

...and this has to go top 3 Most Unrealistic Expectations Hopes Ever. 👍

And that's the only top 3 I'll ever own in GT!

 

[MX5Racer69]

I, for one, am grateful that we have moderators who can tell us when our posts are ridiculous. The quality of the content here at GTPlanet is our utmost priority. With that in mind, let us move from a discussion of hypothetical SRF physics and instead focus our idle time on all the new content we didn't receive from PD in the last month. Think before you post. The life you save could be your own.

 

[bluecharger]

I, for one, am grateful that we have moderators who can tell us when our posts are ridiculous. The quality of the content here at GTPlanet is our utmost priority. With that in mind, let us move from a discussion of hypothetical SRF physics and instead focus our idle time on all the new content we didn't receive from PD in the last month. Think before you post. The life you save could be your own.

Just FYI....I actually almost originally replied to Vagabond that this is what happens when PD leaves us to our devices.

 

[et_]

@MX5Racer69 : Moderators know this forum in and out, thats where they have their knowledge. But they know no more of the game than you and me, your reflection is just as important as theirs.

Anyway, @Vagabond : It has gotten to that now, but sre was'nt that ridiculous at first.

also, @eclipsee explanis it very well.