Is tyre degradation so high in GT5 thats its unrealistic? PD read!

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 5' started by xSNAKEx, Nov 30, 2011.

  1. xSNAKEx

    xSNAKEx

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    Ok so first of all I must say I have never used "Racing" slicks in real life and done laps with it to see how they wear.

    But what about the Sports and comfort tyres in GT5, are they not meant to represent real world tyres people have access to for street driving? I sure have used those!

    Even performance tyres in my car in real life last years. I try not to do too many burnouts, but I load them and make them screech around corners on a daily basis

    Not only have I never felt tyres to be wearing out anywhere near as fast as in Gt5 but I have also NOT noticed much of a reduction in grip if any as the tyre wears, at least not until its under half worn and much more. I am only talking about dry weather here.

    It seems to make sense to me, isnt the tyre material made of the same rubber until you get to the point where you have to throw them out i.e completely worn?


    In GT5 it seems not only do the tyres seem to be wearing in fast forward but as soon as your tyres hit 95% wear left they loose a TON of their grip neither of which feels even CLOSE to real imo.

    A lot of good racers in gt5 that drive carefullly, especially FR drivers may not notice this much because they are always keeping their car in check and adjust grip levels, but as a heavy AWD driver, I notice the redution in front end grip a lot.

    It seems like a ton of grip has been lost and the tyre wear indicator has just started to show wear.

    For example driving a veryon or GTR I notice after just 1 LAP corners I could make normally the previous lap, I now just under-steer heavily and plow into the wall.


    Heck In real life have pushed my car to the tyres limits for hours on end on many occasions and the tyres still just gradually wear, as in last a YEAR + not a few minutes, and my car is pretty heavy.

    According to Gt5 one spirited driving to somewhere 10km/6miles away should mean your tires are made of popsicles when you get there.


    In Gt5 I go around a track for 5 minutes just pushing hard for a fast lap and the grip is gone. It takes almost that long to go thorough a set in real life if you tried your hardest and just sit there doing one long non stop burnout!



    I actually want to sticky this because it is a great real world example.

    Good point :tup:
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
  2. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    I have to agree with you cause I've never gone out and bought slicks, accept for drag racing, but weekends at the track I just do what you do and use high performance tires.

    The tire degradation after hard driving even on the street, cause sadly I too have a lead foot and slide around corners in the backstreets driving home (where no people live) and after a year and a half of doing that the tires started to go bald a bit, plus the 2 years on the tires already from normal driving.
     
  3. xSNAKEx

    xSNAKEx

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    Exactly, now go and try do a similar thing in Gt5 and the tyres will last a few minutes instead of years.

    I mean I am not saying PD are of by a factor of 1000000x, but the tyre wear and degradation needs a huge revamp.

    You can go to an autocross event on tyres you have been using for a while, race the car all day and still go home with life left in them.
    Lucky tyres are free in GT5, so You dont have to care about buying new ones or changing them, but the degradation is so bad What I upset about is that I cant even do a 5 lap race without having a useless set of ice tyres.
    If this was the case in real life I would need to change my tyres 70 times before my Gas/petrol ran out.

    I would suggest for a start maybe something like reduce overall wear by 5x and grip reduction occurs at 20-40% in the dry instead of as soon as it goes a single percent under a brand new tyre.

    Also tyres wear A LOT slower in the wet
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
  4. maddog999

    maddog999

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    Watch DC vs GT, DC's tyres went off after a few laps in the SLS. There's much more to the grip the tyres get other than wear. Also tyres tend not to wear evenly due to suspension settings, which will affect the way they behave.
     
  5. C-ZETA

    C-ZETA

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    What's even worse is that it's been proven that Racing Soft tyres will actually wear slower than Racing Hard or Medium, while being faster. Something to do with the amount of slip each tyre experiences, and because Softs are the most grippy and therefore have less slip they get the best tyre wear.
     
  6. Nish

    Nish

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    I think DC's problem was brake fade and the beginning of rain coming in.
     
  7. GTP_Monkey

    GTP_Monkey Premium

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    You may make them screach IRL a little but your not getting them to the real trmperatures that would cause real tyres to fade, Take your car to a track day and rag the hell out of your tyres constistantly and 10 they will suffer grip. A friend of mine took his 400bhp MR2 over to the nurburgring 3 months ago and bought a new set of super sport tyres at a cost of over £1,200. He put them on drove there did a fair amount of laps then drove back on them covering apr 1000 miles and they where not good when he got home, yes they still gripped well under normal driving conditions but the wear level was close to illegal.
    I do agree though that they do go off quickly in game, he grip level should stay good longer then drop of sharply.
     
  8. GTP_Monkey

    GTP_Monkey Premium

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    And tyre temperature he made a point of saying he had to cool them.
     
  9. Supermelon

    Supermelon

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    From my personally experience, I think the tire wear is sped up a bit in GT5 but it looks to be fairly reasonable.

    In real life I have driven on tires like the Direzza Z1 Star Spec which are extreme performance summer tires. Pretty much close to the limit of street legal tires, next thing up I believe would be semi slicks. I'd say these tires have grip levels somewhat between Comfort Soft & Sports Hard in GT5.

    Now on the surface of these tires are 3 small indents that show when the tire is at 75%, 50%, or 25% wear level. After using them for about 5 months, 2 track days, and approx. 10,000km daily driving. The treadwear is at about 25% left. One trackday was in the wet and the other was in the dry, which worn out my tires the most. almost 25% of it was gone in a 4 hours trackday (only 2.5 hours actual on track).

    I think tire wear is faster in GT5 due to the way people drive. In game the tires are used to their limits more than it would be in real life, which would cause the faster degeneration.
     
  10. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    That doesn't seem realistic, seeing as a harder compound would take more time to get up to the right temp to degradate in the first place, a soft tire works quickly since it grips the track alot fast the friction heat will be easily seen after a few hard laps. We see this happen alot in F1. So to me GT got it wrong on that part. I don't spend enough time testing comfort tires or sport on GT to see how bad or good it is.
     
  11. JDMKING13

    JDMKING13

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    Watch best motoring video tires start going on the 5th lap most races on tsukuba.
     
  12. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

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    Le Mans prototypes can triple stint tyres. That's three 45 minute sessions on the same tyre. That's 135 minutes on one set of tyres and the lap times only differ by a small number of seconds over the laps.

    Can you do that in GT? No because the tyre wear is exaggerated.

    It's the same thing with fuel use and slipstream. All these things are exaggerated.

    Perhaps they exaggerate the effects so they are more easily detected whilst we drive in the comfort of our living rooms?
     
  13. xSNAKEx

    xSNAKEx

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    A lot of what you are noticing has to do with brake fade and temperature.

    I.e brake fluid boiling getting air so mushy brakes, and tires getting so hot they start to get slippery. If you were to let them cool down for a while the car could probably set about the same lap time as lap 1 with fresh tyres.

    In Gt5 this is not the case.

    Also don't forget oil can start to accumulate on the track from exhaust fumes after a while
     
  14. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    This is quite true actually, and these are different tire manufactures as well that are used not just one all. Also the cars are running extremely fast laps through out the race it's not like they slow down alot to maintain them. :tup:x1000 that was a good call.
     
  15. 208SpeedGeek

    208SpeedGeek

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    ^This is spot on!

    I think PD is trying to blend the entertainment part of "The ultimate driving simulator" with the actual simulation of "The ultimate driving simulator". PD knows that most of us aren't going to attempt to do races that would even have us thinking about triple stinting our tires, let alone simulating a set of everyday road tires that would take 40,000-50,000 miles to wear out. The entertainment lies in the thought of "if I do a 2 lap race around the Nurburgring with racing softs, about halfway through lap 2 my tires won't be so good". It makes you think about tire strategy for *very* short races. Not very "real life" at all. It's a way of taking the aspects of a real race and compressing it into a shorter time span that the average "Joe GT5" is more likely to experience.
     
  16. xSNAKEx

    xSNAKEx

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    Boo to that I say. This is not how you make a good racing sim. You cannot work so hard to perfect certain aspects of realism and then do a dun goof ON PURPOSE to another.

    I really think it should be updated just like the slipstream was.

    Tire wear
    -Standard
    -REAL

    As for pit strategies Its very simple, If you would not have to worry about tyre wear in real life why should you have to do it in game? If anything you would think they would make Tyre wear LESS In the game than in real life to make it easier, just like damage is

    If you want it for the "fun" aspect of pit strategies (even though you have to put up with annoying unrealistic grip levels as a side effect) then just do it in A spec where the noobs play, but don't pollute the sim part of the game which is clearly alive and kicking in many respects.

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
  17. MrGrado

    MrGrado

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    I don't think it's so bad. Some RL race cars will only get one or two good laps on a set of tyres, then they will have reduced grip.

    Some GT5 cars run down the fuel faster than they wear the tyres, other cars might need 3 or more sets of tyres before needing refueling.

    I don't find tyre wear to be a big problem at all in GT5. If it's flawed at all, it's not so bad.
     
  18. SuperCobraJet

    SuperCobraJet (Banned)

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    The tire wear model is too accelerated.

    PD should at least double the tire life to improve the realism aspect, and have the tires wear longer on harder compounds, like in GT4.
     
  19. Slurm

    Slurm

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    In a high-power 2WD car using sports tyres, you can't even complete 2/3 of a lap of the Nurburgring 24hr track, without losing half your grip. And yes, that includes care on the throttle - but with rabid GT-R's to compete with, you can't exactly cruise.

    The RS life > RH is totally ridiculous too. Everyone puts RS on everything and ruins an otherwise good simulator. People run 400pp races without tyre regulations - wtf??

    IMO, we should be able to set tyre depletion rate to fast / medium / slow / real.

    Also, slightly OT: Cars with racing tyres on them should be classed differently (not road cars), since they aren't road legal.
     
  20. xSNAKEx

    xSNAKEx

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    I'd say even doubled its not enough. Would be closer to 5x IMO

    Even then they would need to reduce the point at which a permanent reduction in grip happens.

    In real life, even tyres that are close to completely bald, don't suffer such a huge reduction in grip compared to when they were newer.

    In GT5, the grip when they are almost completely worn is astronomically, impossibly low, like driving on ice.

    Here is a god example. Try to drive around with close to fully worn Comfort Hards in GT5. The feeling I would describe is like driving on ice.

    This is complete BS. Now put on a set of Warn or even bald tyres on your Car and see if it is the same. Even if you don't keep your tyre dimension and put on some thin family car rims it will still handle better.

    There are some really POS tyres on almost 1/10 of cars on the road I see driving around,

    I am talking cheapest/lowest quality possible, 7 year old hardened tyres so bald and worn they are as shiny as marble and the cars they are on are ussually beat up and driven by some thug or incompetent when it comes to cars. Y
    et they still managed to thrash the car around the street and take corners at greater than 1kph without spinning out.

    Try Put a Sports Soft Or racing tyre on the front of a car and a Comfort Hard on the rear.

    the Car behaves as it has shopping trolly wheels on the back.

    If you got the same car, and put on the best performance tyres on the front and Economical Tyres on the rear, there is no way in hell the car would behave like that. It Would Still drive normally but will be prone to spinning out at the rear but only if you really got up to some decent speeds.

    You wont spin out taking a normal street bend at 70kph. But in Gt5 you WILL spin out doing 20kph with new tyres on a dry track in perfect conditions! WOW

    It shows you just who wrong the tyre model is no new tyre is that horrible.

    It is a better in Spec 2, but still very wrong.
     
  21. SkateNj

    SkateNj

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    Not true. I raced in the FGTC this weekend at trial mountain. My softs lasted 17 laps while my mediums lasted 26. Nearly 10 more laps with no sliding.
     
  22. elston87

    elston87 Premium

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    What's funny is that Racing Soft tires, when slapped onto an X2010, seem to last a good 50 miles on Nurbrugring before needing to be swapped, even while withstanding hyper-fast cornering. Normally, after cornering like that, you'd expect the tires to become as rough as dead skin... :p
     
  23. xSNAKEx

    xSNAKEx

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    Yea a few other members and myself have complained about this as well.

    The X1 is another un realistic fail in GT5.

    The whole X1 is just superman level fantasy, its not just the tyres lasting 50 miles.
     
  24. Menown

    Menown

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    I think the tyre wear is okay. Check out the TopGear special where the visit America, I think it is the second time, jeremy powerslides the SLS around an old disused oval and his tyres and shot in no time and that is exactly how 90% of the people in GT5 drive. A professional Le Mans driver is doing everything he can to preserve his tyres, 90% of GT5 players try to lap as quickly as possible at all costs.

    I started Tsukuba 4 hour and while researching it people were doing 4 and 5 stops. I drove preserving tyres and baring fuel could go the whole race on the same get of sport soft.

    I doubt it is 100% perfect simulation wear, but it isn't as far out as you think it is. Drive up and down SSR7 at highway speed on comfort hards and see what kind of wear you get.
     
  25. MrGrado

    MrGrado

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    In F1 sometimes they get similar or better tyre life from the softer compound tyre and faster laps.
     
  26. C-ZETA

    C-ZETA

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    That would be online physics though. Offline it's been seen that soft tyres last longer because they have less slip.
     
  27. Bottoz

    Bottoz

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    Agree with the "too accelerated in GT5" theory.

    I can use a set of R-compound DOT tires for a full season of Road Course racing IRL. That's 6 racing weekends, with 4 20-30min races each weekend and 4 warm up/qualifying sessions as well. 24 20 or 30 minute (and one one hour) races total. Granted performance peaks after a few heat cycles, and slowly tapers off at the end of the season... but it's no where near what GT5 simulates.
     
  28. Greycap

    Greycap Premium

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    On the other hand a real F1 car goes through a set of soft tyres in a dozen laps or so if pushing hard, a figure very much in line with GT5 if not even faster. The point being just pushing hard, nobody drives in a endurance race like every lap was a qualifying lap unless they absolutely have to - and at that point they certainly won't be getting more than one stint out of each set.
     
  29. Slurm

    Slurm

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    F1 tyres are purpose made by Pirelli to degrade quickly (for more interesting racing within the 60ish laps of a race), not to mention the massive forces F1 cars put through the rubber. If you put them on a road car you would really struggle to wear them out because they'd hardly get warm.

    The X2010 in GT5 (as mentioned above), driven like a mad bat, will go 50 miles on racing softs, when road cars would struggle to do half that.

    There really is no defending the tyre wear model in GT5...
     
  30. Zoom!Zoom!

    Zoom!Zoom!

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    Except your post made the best defense over Gt5 tire wear model. That is: Just like real F1, Gt5 tires are made to degrade quickly on purpose for more interesting racing within short number of laps. F1 2011 game is design so tires degrade faster depending on the percentage of the race.
    So is Gt5 tire wear realistic? I would say just as realistic as F1 tires.