Is VTEC accurately recreated in this game??

[KaiZen]

Imagine a cam profile specifically designed for bottom end grunt, like most V8's are, and then at about 5-6000rpm where V8's loose breath a top end cam for turbo's kicks in!

That's CraZy!!.. and would sound unbelievably glorious!..

 

[Ronnn]

I agree Kaizen
I think VTEC is really magic. 2 cam profiles in a single cam design.

For people haven't ride on one of those DOHC VTEC, they really have to take a seat on those to understand what WE are talking about. The feeling just can't explain by words.

I totally understand the feeling as I owned an EK4 before.

 

[draven6801]

dead on mate!.. so how can it not be a performance tool?..

back on the thread question, in GT3 the sound of the VTEC was not simulated at all because when the high lift cam kicks in, which is at about 5200-5500 on the B series and H22 engines, there is a noticable engine note change. For those who haven't heard it, it goes from and steady build in engine noise to a sudden deep screaming wale in an instant, like it skipped a few thousand revs, and went from being a screaming 4 cylinder to a screaming V6 or 8 even. It's especially noticable with an aftermarket VTEC cam like one from Spoon or Mugen (my friend has one). brrrrrraaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMPPPP. It's amazing!

It is definately not there in GT2 or GT3! But I can't say if it is in GT4
which I found quite disappointing as a fan of VTEC. The screaming wale was there at high revs, but the cam change wasn't. You can always tell a performance VTEC, be it 4 cylinder or 6, by this wale. It's as destict as a Rotory or Boxer (flat 4/6 cyl) or V8 engine.

When the high lift cam kicks in it sounds like a totally different engine and most people missinterperate the build up of torque in "regular" VTEC and non VTEC cars with the very noticable engine sound in performance VTEC engines. Theres a huge difference!

Nothing on earth sounds like a well tuned VTEC engine! If you've ever heard one, you know what I mean. If you haven't, you don't know what you're missing!

Amen Brother...

 

[KaiZen]

THE combinations are endess. 2 cams in one? why stop there??..
theoretically, a gearbox can be made reduntant with this type of technology. imagine more than 2 cams. The gear box was created to make use of the engines torque efficiently. at 50kms in 5th gear the car isn't pulling enough because there's not enough torque at that rev range, so you have to change to 2nd or 3rd.. now imagine a cam profile designed specifally to peak every thousand revs, so you'd have 4 or more cam's kicking in, theoritcally being at peak torque throughout the rev range..

1 gear doesn't sound like fun, but for auto drivers it's perfect.

hehe.. just a thought..

 

[Ronnn]

It's funny, actually I read many posts discuss VTEC engine sound.

Why no one talk about Twin Turbo in Skyline, RX-7 or Supra
1st....I don't notice anything change for the 1st turbo comes in and 2nd turbo comes in...I think they just come in at the same time, but that's not true for all those cars. They come in at different RPM. Anyone notice different? I don't.
2nd...I think GT series should let people install Twin Turbo in those cars or 1 Single large Turbo option. Since the chararteristic is different. But actually I guess if you install stage 3 or 4 I forgot, they already assume you are using 1 large Turbo, since the Turbo lag is pretty serious.

 

[Ronnn]

THE combinations are endess. 2 cams in one? why stop there??..
theoretically, a gearbox can be made reduntant with this type of technology. imagine more than 2 cams. The gear box was created to make use of the engines torque efficiently. at 50kms in 5th gear the car isn't pulling enough because there's not enough torque at that rev range, so you have to change to 2nd or 3rd.. now imagine a cam profile designed specifally to peak every thousand revs, so you'd have 4 or more cam's kicking in, theoritcally being at peak torque throughout the rev range..

1 gear doesn't sound like fun, but for auto drivers it's perfect.

hehe.. just a thought..

You are talking about some thing like CVT, that's what they are trying to simulate. Best gear ratio for every situation.

 

[TrUeNo_oF_AkInA]

in GT3 try the integra type R 98 with a semi racing muffler..... that will do the trick.... same with GT2 also.... works on S2000 also but with a sports muffler......

I own a 93 acura integra GS-R and surely the Vtec kicks at 5500rpms.... the pull is at 6000rpm.... yep and i can say it is extremely quick at cornering. we do real life touge battles in my town and so far I've out ran all my challengers. pretty kewl huh... fun too... The ABS is dead on my Integra though. i had to learn the hard way haha... but mistakes are to learn from.

anyways i hope that they do change the exhaust pitches in GT4 cause im really sick of hearing the same exhaust notes from GT1 2 and 3......

 

[KaiZen]

Alot of people think that the reason we Honda's became so popular in this 'fast and the furious' day and age was because "my mum bought wanted to buy a reliable honda, and then gave it to me when she wanted to get an SUV, and I modified the hell out of it"..

Thank God for Mr Honda making use of this technology that was invented some time in the 20's or 30's.. now everyone is following coz it's not all about cubes and forced induction!

though variable valve timing has been around for decades, the lift cam is what Honda perfected and now everyone is following their example. You won't find a car that revs to 8000 with linear delivery that doesn't have it! Even the greatest supercar of all time had it.. the Great McLaren F1

 

[KaiZen]

TrUeNo_oF_AkInA ,

With the semi-racing muffluer, I thought that might be the case. I haven't tried it though. Does the sound totally change though?

And with twin turbo cars, if it's sequential turbo, the power delivery will just be more linear like a VTEC, so the power band is more spread out, but sound totally the same be it single or twin turbo. Twin turbo's were created to reduce lag coz the 1st turbo is for the low to mid rev range and the 2nd top end. Some twin turbo's work at the same time, depends on the setup.

 

[KaiZen]

and with my theory, CVT is still based on using a gearbox full of gears


I say no gearbox, or one gear.. a clutch that disengages witht the diff, maybe.

 

[Flip rSx driveR]

I hated when putting semi-racing exhausts on B-series cars in GT3. The car would SCREAM annoyingly at the top end, as if it was running a straight pipe. But a roar like what exhaust systems usually give out. I just hope it's different this time, because after I heard the Evo with exhaust in Akira's sound files... sounds really nice.

 

[Track_Veteran]

This thread is great.





The best car knowledge gained is from real world experience, not games. I'll leave it at that. Continue.

 

[Duke]

This thread is great.





The best car knowledge gained is from real world experience, not games. I'll leave it at that. Continue.

Thank you. I don't quite know where this idea came from that big lumpy cams don't make any power at the low end. About 10,000 Pro Stock drag racers would like to disagree with you. Those things may not idle for crap but they've got a power curve fatter than Oprah Winfrey from just off idle all the way to redline.

I stand by every word I've put in this thread.

 

[DevilGTx]

Duke is totally right.

For every one of those variable-cam "ricers", there are TEN Ford 5.0's in Mustangs driven by rednecks that would smoke the imports any day of the week. And their cars usually look ike ROLLING JUNK.
Sure, a VVTi or a VTEC may have a huge redline advantage, but think about it for a second...the Honda might make 150lb/ft of torque at 8000, but the redneck in the Mustang has 225lb/ft available to him at 2500, about one second after he floors it.

I've seen 'stangs and Camaros that leak like the cold SR-71.
And still run 10.90.

 

[Septiem]

Duke is totally right.

For every one of those variable-cam "ricers", there are TEN Ford 5.0's in Mustangs driven by rednecks that would smoke the imports any day of the week. And their cars usually look ike ROLLING JUNK.
Sure, a VVTi or a VTEC may have a huge redline advantage, but think about it for a second...the Honda might make 150lb/ft of torque at 8000, but the redneck in the Mustang has 225lb/ft available to him at 2500, about one second after he floors it.

I've seen 'stangs and Camaros that leak like the cold SR-71.
And still run 10.90.

The most important thing that V-tech or any other variable valve timing system does is change the came profile for better power.

Not to dumb it down, but the slower an engine revs , the later you want to open the valves and the longer you want to keep them closed to produce more torque.

as engine speed increases, it is better to have the cam open the valve sooner and sooner so you can make more power. the problem used to be that you could only choose 1 cam profile for your car. So the car company had to pick what worked best at all rpm ranges. it was a comprimise at best.

As far as those stangs and camaros, (by the way, i have a 2001 stang GT)track guys put in cams that make much more power at the upper end of the rpm range. the give away a little drivability, and low end power. the cames they choose open to soon and for too long to make the most power at lower rpm. but since they are making street/strip cars, all they care about is the rpm they will use at the track. Not saying thay do not make power at low speeds, but with a less agressive cam, they would be making more, at the cost of high rpm power. that is why they idle strange, the cam was not really made for 800rpm.

V-tech give you the ability to run 2 cam profile at one time, one makes good low end power and the other make good high end power.

On the first V-tech cars, it only changed the pofile for the intake valves, i belive it works on both now. just about every modern OHC engine uses a varible valve timing system today. even the new mustang gt.

 

[DevilGTx]

Septiem, you exhibit some knowledge and logical thinking.

Ah, yes, your Mustang does give away a little on the low-end, but Ford really wanted the little modular to scream along and get 260hp, and dude, I can't complain about that. Old 5.0's = no OHC, so peak torque comes between 2 and 3grand BEFORE the valves have time to open for high-range air-flow.
Now, if you mapped the cam speed vs. air-flow for your 4.6, the curve would be smooth and going straight up at redline. On a VTEC, you would see 2 or 3 plateaus where the computer controls air-flow speed via the cams to achieve more power while burning a near equivalent amount of fuel throughout that individual range. A completely brilliant idea, but it doesn't really make you faster.
A turbocharger is also something that can actively control your airflow by changing rates in intake compression much like VTEC.
But the simple fact is, without some kind of compressed induction, the small engines simply can't move the same volume of air to burn more fuel that a large displacement engine can.
I'd take your Mustang over an Acura anyday. (well, maybe not an NSX)
Note : Chevys have always been OHV pushrod engines...great for torque.

 

[Duke]

The most important thing that V-tech or any other variable valve timing system does is change the came profile for better power.

V-tech give you the ability to run 2 cam profile at one time, one makes good low end power and the other make good high end power.

This is correct, and I've honestly never stated that V-tec is a bad system. More finesse is more finesse in the cam timing and lift. Believe me, I'm all for it.

What I'm trying to combat here is the impression that V-tec is some magic system that lets the engine make a lot more power than it otherwise could. V-tec does nothing for peak power. All it does is adjust how that power is delivered. You can do almost as much to modify the power curve with an active intake manifold setup like the 2-gen Neon ACR and R/T. It's got monster secondary intake runners that open and close at various times to allow the engine to wind up faster and get more air in. They open halfway at low RPM in order to improve throttle response, then close to improve intake velocity through the midrange. At WOT and high revs they open all the way to maximize the intake volume.

 

[TrUeNo_oF_AkInA]

TrUeNo_oF_AkInA ,

With the semi-racing muffluer, I thought that might be the case. I haven't tried it though. Does the sound totally change though?

And with twin turbo cars, if it's sequential turbo, the power delivery will just be more linear like a VTEC, so the power band is more spread out, but sound totally the same be it single or twin turbo. Twin turbo's were created to reduce lag coz the 1st turbo is for the low to mid rev range and the 2nd top end. Some twin turbo's work at the same time, depends on the setup.

yeah in the Gran Turismo 2 and 3 theres really a change. The exhaust pitch of the ITR with change at about 5300rpms. The S2000 is different though. The S2000 will change at 4500rpm. Oh yeah, the honda civic Si-RII and Del Sol can do it too, the need the semi-racing muffler. Only the S2000 uses a Sports muffler.

change the muffler and Rev the car from outside view. turn your TV up too. Another nice sound is the Cobra with its stock muffler. sounds MEAN!

 

[TrUeNo_oF_AkInA]

Duke is totally right.

For every one of those variable-cam "ricers", there are TEN Ford 5.0's in Mustangs driven by rednecks that would smoke the imports any day of the week. And their cars usually look ike ROLLING JUNK.
Sure, a VVTi or a VTEC may have a huge redline advantage, but think about it for a second...the Honda might make 150lb/ft of torque at 8000, but the redneck in the Mustang has 225lb/ft available to him at 2500, about one second after he floors it.

I've seen 'stangs and Camaros that leak like the cold SR-71.
And still run 10.90.

Don't know if anyone ever gave it much thought. but Imports aren't really made to drag, especially hondas and acuras. They're more likely built for handling. That is why they have such a high Rev. I can tell you this that my 93 Integra GS-R would take any muscle car on the Mountain Pass or Corners regardless of their horse power. trust me I've tried it. The more the power and weight the easier to take them while braking and cornering. oh yeah with those giant 5.0's and tons of torque, it's a walk in the park. While racing strong cars its just the straights that they pull but I gain it all back during braking.

well honda's won't hang with them muscle cars on the strip for long but that is why we have Supra's, Skylines, RX-7's and ETC. JDM muscle.

Oh Yeah, you know those $45,000 or $60,000 SR-71, mustang Cobra 5.0 etc. If someone gave me that much money to buy one of those I rather buy a Import. I bet i can make a honda 10 times faster than a muscle car with that 45,000 or 60,000. most likely it only takes 10,000 dollars to make a honda woop on a muscle car. haha yep. It's all about money when it comes to the strip. yep you get what you paid for, but uh huh with a quarter of that money you use on muscle cars you can get what you want in a import......

 

[Wads]

yeah in the Gran Turismo 2 and 3 theres really a change. The exhaust pitch of the ITR with change at about 5300rpms. The S2000 is different though. The S2000 will change at 4500rpm. Oh yeah, the honda civic Si-RII and Del Sol can do it too, the need the semi-racing muffler. Only the S2000 uses a Sports muffler.

change the muffler and Rev the car from outside view. turn your TV up too. Another nice sound is the Cobra with its stock muffler. sounds MEAN!

I drive an S2000 and have never been very pleased with its GT performance modelling....... in the game there is no obvious VTEC transition either in terms of acceleration or noise. The real thing screams between 6300 and 9000rpm..... the GT version doesn't sound anywhere near as good!

If what TrUeno says is correct in that the exhaust note changes at 4500rpm that also shows how bad the modelling is in GT3 as VTEC only cuts in at 6300rpm 👎

 

[TrUeNo_oF_AkInA]

This is correct, and I've honestly never stated that V-tec is a bad system. More finesse is more finesse in the cam timing and lift. Believe me, I'm all for it.

What I'm trying to combat here is the impression that V-tec is some magic system that lets the engine make a lot more power than it otherwise could. V-tec does nothing for peak power. All it does is adjust how that power is delivered. You can do almost as much to modify the power curve with an active intake manifold setup like the 2-gen Neon ACR and R/T. It's got monster secondary intake runners that open and close at various times to allow the engine to wind up faster and get more air in. They open halfway at low RPM in order to improve throttle response, then close to improve intake velocity through the midrange. At WOT and high revs they open all the way to maximize the intake volume.

yeah, but a running stock, a honda or acura would tear up any other inline four domestic car any day. Oh wait there's the SRT-4 no wonder why they had to add a turbo hmmm..... haha j/p man.... well yeah VTEC makes hondas and acuras the most efficient and strongest naturally aspirated engines in the world. So it does make some difference.

 

[Wads]

yeah, but a running stock, a honda or acura would tear up any other inline four domestic car any day. Oh wait there's the SRT-4 no wonder why they had to add a turbo hmmm..... haha j/p man.... well yeah VTEC makes hondas and acuras the most efficient and strongest naturally aspirated engines in the world. So it does make some difference.

Yep and I think the S2000s F20C is still the most powerful NA output in a mass produced engine kicking out 120bhp/litre

 

[TrUeNo_oF_AkInA]

I drive an S2000 and have never been very pleased with its GT performance modelling....... in the game there is no obvious VTEC transition either in terms of acceleration or noise. The real thing screams between 6300 and 9000rpm..... the GT version doesn't sound anywhere near as good!

If what TrUeno says is correct in that the exhaust note changes at 4500rpm that also shows how bad the modelling is in GT3 as VTEC only cuts in at 6300rpm 👎

haha yeah man thats kinda of what I thought... I didnt think the VTEC on S2000s kick at 4500rpms. thats kinda early but it's good in a way. Gran Turismo needs to perfect their Exhaust pitches. Need for Speed underground has some nice Exhaust notes. why and the GT games have it. but yeah try the sports exhaust on the S2000 in GT3 you'll hear the change at 4500rpm.

 

[///M-Spec]

yeah, but a running stock, a honda or acura would tear up any other inline four domestic car any day. Oh wait there's the SRT-4 no wonder why they had to add a turbo hmmm..... haha j/p man.... well yeah VTEC makes hondas and acuras the most efficient and strongest naturally aspirated engines in the world. So it does make some difference.

VTEC is just a brand name like Coke or Nike for a technology every major player is using these days. It may have been special in 1990, when the NSX was brand new, but it is really old news 15 years later. It is especially so considering companies like BMW and Nissan had their own valve timing tech. in mainstream cars for years before Honda decided to trickle it down to Integras, Preludes and Civics. If you think VTEC is the primary reason why Honda engines are any good, you're just swallowing the line from their marketing department.

They make good engines. And in their area of expertise (small, mass production mainstream fours and V6s), they are one of the best. But being good in these areas does not make them dominant. Especially when BMW, DaimlerChrysler, Nissan and GM are making some truly exceptional stuff these days.


M

 

[Aloha62_2]

yeah strange as it may seem a 5.0 mustang V8 can put out more power then a 1.5 3-stage VTEC. it isnt an engine designed for pure grunt its a compromise but a reasonably good one. an old bid doddering around below 2500rpm would be doing obscene milage while that 5.0 will be chucking fuel into 8 thirsty cylinders, an important factor here with prices for petrol creeping on a quid a liter.

so how good would a 5.0 VTEC be?


what about the MG's in the game is the VVC system realistic?

 

[DevilGTx]

Trueno?
Do you think that Mustangs handle badly?
Do you think that all muscle-cars handle badly?
Do you realize the handling advantages of RWD vs. FWD?
I bet you do.
Don't worry, I'm not saying that FWD cars handle badly.
Some would say the world's best handling car is the '90 Lotus Elan S2, which was FWD.
And if you think that there are no domestic 4cyl cars in the USA that can keep up with the VTEC's and VVTi's you are badly mistaken.
A stock 2000 Chevy Cavalier Z24 5spd. still makes more torque than the Civic Si, and for around $500 can have you down below 15 seconds in a Q.
Me...I drive a '93 Cavalier RS 3.1 auto. Despite how much I like the new GM Ecotec, I wouldn't trade that V6 for a 4...no way. And for an equivalent amount of money to spend tuning my car, you would have no chance.

(EDIT)
Aloha, you're right on!
VTEC is for fuel economy.
But what would the point of a VTEC 8cyl be?
Again, fuel economy.
A VTEC Mustang wouldn't be any faster than a non VTEC.

 

[Duke]

Don't know if anyone ever gave it much thought. but Imports aren't really made to drag, especially hondas and acuras. They're more likely built for handling. That is why they have such a high Rev. I can tell you this that my 93 Integra GS-R would take any muscle car on the Mountain Pass or Corners regardless of their horse power. trust me I've tried it. The more the power and weight the easier to take them while braking and cornering. oh yeah with those giant 5.0's and tons of torque, it's a walk in the park. While racing strong cars its just the straights that they pull but I gain it all back during braking.

well honda's won't hang with them muscle cars on the strip for long but that is why we have Supra's, Skylines, RX-7's and ETC. JDM muscle.

Oh Yeah, you know those $45,000 or $60,000 SR-71, mustang Cobra 5.0 etc. If someone gave me that much money to buy one of those I rather buy a Import. I bet i can make a honda 10 times faster than a muscle car with that 45,000 or 60,000. most likely it only takes 10,000 dollars to make a honda woop on a muscle car. haha yep. It's all about money when it comes to the strip. yep you get what you paid for, but uh huh with a quarter of that money you use on muscle cars you can get what you want in a import......

Honsetly, if you're going to post like this, just don't bother. No one is restarting the import vs muscle fight again.

With $2000 I can put a 5.0 Mustang into the 11s, starting with a running junker. It'll be a total pile, but it'll do it. So keep your silly $60,000 number in your head.

 

[KaiZen]

WE'RE comparing apples with pairs now..

IT'S all about power per litre (without using a turbo that is)

an s2000 still produces the most power per litre in a natrually aspirated engine and I think the new M5 runs in at a cloes second with 500hp at 5 litres..

and we're talking production cars too, that can manage at least 300,000km before requiring an engine rebuild..

it cost money to make power. in japan it's not uncommon to see cars with 2 litre turbo engines that have over 1000hp at the engine, or wheels even.. just cost them a **** load


dont compare drag cars.. thats dumb.. dont compare under 2 litres with 5+litres, thats stupid.. especially if they're both NA.

everyone knows more litres or cubes means more torque.. d'uh!

you're just being picky.. if you want to run your 2 litre car against a big block, slap on a huge turbo!.. that'll learn 'em!!!

 

[DevilGTx]

So, why doesn't Honda put a V8 Vtec in the S2000?

300 hp from a 5.7L V8 is still more than 240 hp from a 2.2L I4.

 

[KaiZen]

Most manufacturers have been using variable valve tech since the 80's. all car manufactures use it these days, but lift tech is something that other manufacturers have only recently (last 5 or so years)been using.

how can you not say that lift tech is a performance feature? bigger cam means more power right?