Israel - Palestine discussion thread

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Eunos_Cosmo
This was Bibi's trap for Donald Trump, because he's too stupid to realize it, and I'm afraid its too far along now to stop...the US will be partaking in nation building once again...
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I mean, this is Trump in general, but especially Trump now with his cabinet of idiots.
 
Fezzik
But US intelligence assessments had reached a different conclusion – not only was Iran not actively pursuing a nuclear weapon, it was also up to three years away from being able to produce and deliver one to a target of its choosing, according to four people familiar with the assessment.”

Israel government lying? Shocking.

The speculation about US strikes on the nuclear facilities is also concerning to a Brit. As I understand it those aircraft would be operating from US bases on British territory - we really don’t need Trump and Netanyahu dragging us into this conflict.
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This is just Iraq and "Weapons of Mass Destruction" all over again. They need an excuse to do what they are going to do anyway. This is the cover story they're going with, because even though it's clearly bollocks it's the sort of bollocks that's pretty difficult to immediately disprove and includes just enough scary buzzwords and concepts for a lot of people to switch the logic part of their brains off.

Let's be honest, Israel has learned from watching the US. It's just that they're way more mask off about what they're doing.
Eunos_Cosmo
This was Bibi's trap for Donald Trump, because he's too stupid to realize it, and I'm afraid its too far along now to stop...the US will be partaking in nation building once again...
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I don't think it's a trap if the target is fully informed and actively agrees to go along with it. Trump is stupid, and Hegseth is very stupid, but there are people in government that know what's going on and will tell them. They will join in with Israel not because they're misinformed about Netanyahu's intentions, but because they want what he wants. They want a war with Iran. They want a Palestinian genocide. They want a greater conflict in the Middle East, and if it were to turn into a World War they'd be happy with that too.

Because it's all stuff they can use to help push their own goals. Trump doesn't give a **** about nation building or other people dying, he'll just see an opportunity for him to spout some more ******** in a chaotic situation and do more stuff without asking.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
This is only tangentially related to nuclear weapons. Hamas and Hezbollah are flattened, Syria is rebuilding, the Houthis have been minimized, Russia is distracted, and Iran's air defenses were taken out in the prior operation - almost none of these conditions were going to remain static. Netanyahu saw a window to take down the Ayatollah, most likely still involving the US being dragged in, and invented a pretext to start the operation. This was never going to be a limited operation to prevent the Islamic Republic from acquiring a nuclear weapon, it was about removing the Islamic Republic. What Netanyahu has done now is created a condition where the regime has to be eliminated...if they don't it's abundantly clear that they will have to develop nuclear weapons. This was Bibi's trap for Donald Trump, because he's too stupid to realize it, and I'm afraid its too far along now to stop...the US will be partaking in nation building once again...
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I reckon this is spot on.

I reckon, though, that Iran is not only close to developing a nuclear weapon, but is hell-bent on doing so - so although Israel is using this as a pretext, it is not an illegitimate one.

But - Israel, like Iran - has no interest in making peace with the other; and while that situation persists, peace talks were always likely (if not certain) to fail. Netanyahu is pre-empting this by not even bothering with peace talks at all, and has been paving the way for this opportunity for years - and now, with Trump in the White House, it is coming to pass, and I don't see how this is going to end well for anyone, but especially Iran.
 
Touring Mars
I reckon this is spot on.

I reckon, though, that Iran is not only close to developing a nuclear weapon, but is hell-bent on doing so - so although Israel is using this as a pretext, it is not an illegitimate one.

But - Israel, like Iran - has no interest in making peace with the other; and while that situation persists, peace talks were always likely (if not certain) to fail. Netanyahu is pre-empting this by not even bothering with peace talks at all, and has been paving the way for this opportunity for years - and now, with Trump in the White House, it is coming to pass, and I don't see how this is going to end well for anyone, but especially Iran.
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It might end with the ayatollah and his proxy armies falling apart, but it also might allow for a power vacuum where another one replaces the ayatollah.
 
Touring Mars
I reckon, though, that Iran is not only close to developing a nuclear weapon, but is hell-bent on doing so - so although Israel is using this as a pretext, it is not an illegitimate one.
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If they weren't building one then this will make sure that they definitely are. The way that Iran has been backed into a corner by the US and Israel leaves them no options.

I think this has been the plan since Trump blew up the JCPOA. It's not that Iran is necessarily a threat, it's that they've decided to make sure that Iran's choices are to be a threat or die. Which is ********, because once again most of the problems with Iran can be traced pretty directly to US meddling.
 
I only wish there was a way for both Netanyahu and Khamenei to lose. The middle east is in a constant state of war because* of the psychotic lunatics who think their version of the region is the only acceptable one.

*well, that and the long shadow of western intervention and resource scarcity...
 
Well, if the current stability holds, here is my tally on the "12 day war":

Winner: Donald Trump. Established himself as the only player with any ability to shape the events in the region. I think he's fishing for a Nobel prize which probably influenced how he went about the conflict. Significant battlefield successes with no losses and no entanglement. I don't think he truly accomplished much, but I also don't think this whole war accomplished much either. The showman did his thing, and I wouldn't be surprised if even the most reluctant MAGA supporters were pleased with the result.

Winner: Netanyahu. Clearly had the upper hand throughout the conflict and achieved tactical victory. As I said above, I don't think the war truly accomplished anything because I don't believe that Iran was about to build a nuclear bomb, and I don't think Iran posed any immediate threat to Israel with it's allies so battered. I see this mostly as a domestic audience performative war rather than something truly seeking strategic benefit.

Winner: Islamic Republic. They took a beating, but managed to keep swinging until the end, landing some serious hits on their arch nemesis, which is somewhat impressive considering the huge gulf in technology and equipment. The fact that the regime survived is a win for them, which is unfortunate.

Neutral: Israeli people. They definitely took some hits, but will come out of it just fine other than the continual degradation of their popularity/image on the world stage.

Loser: Iranian people. They took the brunt of the conflict, and will be no better of than they were before. Possibly worse off if the regime takes out their frustration on their own people under the guise of purging informants, which is a definite possibility.

Loser: China & Russia - They did not have much ability to shape the conflict, but they didn't try very hard, which brings me to...
edit: It should be said that Russian AA systems were completely ineffective against American aircraft in this conflict, which is also pretty bad news for Russia, and apparently they are fairly concerned about it.

Biggest Loser: Europe - Frantic diplomacy that was utterly disregarded. I think Europe's stature as a world player takes a significant hit here. They completely failed to shape the events of the war despite trying pretty damn hard, and Trump danced on top of them to boot.
 
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Eunos_Cosmo
Well, if the current stability holds, here is my tally on the "12 day war":

Winner: Donald Trump. Established himself as the only player with any ability to shape the events in the region. I think he's fishing for a Nobel prize which probably influenced how he went about the conflict. Significant battlefield successes with no losses and no entanglement. I don't think he truly accomplished much, but I also don't think this whole war accomplished much either. The showman did his thing, and I wouldn't be surprised if even the most reluctant MAGA supporters were pleased with the result.

Winner: Netanyahu. Clearly had the upper hand throughout the conflict and achieved tactical victory. As I said above, I don't think the war truly accomplished anything because I don't believe that Iran was about to build a nuclear bomb, and I don't think Iran posed any immediate threat to Israel with it's allies so battered. I see this mostly as a domestic audience performative war rather than something truly seeking strategic benefit.

Winner: Islamic Republic. They took a beating, but managed to keep swinging until the end, landing some serious hits on their arch nemesis, which is somewhat impressive considering the huge gulf in technology and equipment. The fact that the regime survived is a win for them, which is unfortunate.

Neutral: Israeli people. They definitely took some hits, but will come out of it just fine other than the continual degradation of their popularity/image on the world stage.

Loser: Iranian people. They took the brunt of the conflict, and will be no better of than they were before. Possibly worse off if the regime takes out their frustration on their own people under the guise of purging informants, which is a definite possibility.

Loser: China & Russia - They did not have much ability to shape the conflict, but they didn't try very hard, which brings me to...
edit: It should be said that Russian AA systems were completely ineffective against American aircraft in this conflict, which is also pretty bad news for Russia, and apparently they are fairly concerned about it.

Biggest Loser: Europe - Frantic diplomacy that was utterly disregarded. I think Europe's stature as a world player takes a significant hit here. They completely failed to shape the events of the war despite trying pretty damn hard, and Trump danced on top of them to boot.
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If Trump truly didn't take out the nuclear weapons program, as they are starting to report he might have only delayed things by a few months, then I'd say neither Israel nor Trump won. The Islamic Republic, however, does win because Trump utterly failed at his objective and Israel was basically told to stop. TACO Trump could always just start another bombing plan.
 
Blitz24
If Trump truly didn't take out the nuclear weapons program, as they are starting to report he might have only delayed things by a few months, then I'd say neither Israel nor Trump won. The Islamic Republic, however, does win because Trump utterly failed at his objective and Israel was basically told to stop. TACO Trump could always just start another bombing plan.
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MOP's capabilities were well-known, reported as 60m of earth or 18m of 5,000psi reinforced concrete. Iran put the Fordow facility 80m underground and had developed reinforced concrete rated to 40,000psi - or better than one (30,000lb) MOP per square inch.

They may have delivered two-or-more down each hole (the satellite images look like six holes, so two per hole), but it'd probably take quite a bit more than that - especially if the facility comprised shells of UHPC.
 
Famine
MOP's capabilities were well-known, reported as 60m of earth or 18m of 5,000psi reinforced concrete. Iran put the Fordow facility 80m underground and had developed reinforced concrete rated to 40,000psi - or better than one (30,000lb) MOP per square inch.

They may have delivered two-or-more down each hole (the satellite images look like six holes, so two per hole), but it'd probably take quite a bit more than that - especially if the facility comprised shells of UHPC.
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Which means Trump either wildly overestimated the effects of the strike over the weekend or the Iranians reached a point where MOPs would be a slight deterrence.
 
As with everything these days, it's performative. Not meant to actually deliver results, but to look blustery and strong.
 
Danoff
As with everything these days, it's performative. Not meant to actually deliver results, but to look blustery and strong.
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I think this is why Trump immediately declared the operation a success, because it has to be a success, regardless of reality. I should have qualified my score tally post as "preliminary" because if Fordow survives intact, then the Islamic Public is possibly the winner, and Israel & Trump are possibly the losers, long term.
 
On 3 July 2025, Francesca Albanese, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, updated the Human Rights Council at its 59th session.

 
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www.bbc.co.uk

France to recognise Palestinian state in September

France to become the first G7 state to recognise the state of Palestine, as Israeli PM Netanyahu condemns decision.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

By September that Palestinian state will just be the parts of the West Bank that the US-funded Israeli invaders haven't already colonised. Gaza will be completely obliterated, a rubble-strewn graveyard ready for takeover & redevelopment by the Trump Organisation.

www.theguardian.com

Far-right Israeli politicians and settlers discuss luxury ‘Gaza riviera’ plan

Legal experts say scheme to annex territory and forcibly displace Palestinians is tantamount to ethnic cleansing
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
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www.theguardian.com

UK to recognise state of Palestine in September unless Israel holds to ceasefire

Cabinet agrees to support Middle East roadmap at emergency meeting called amid humanitarian crisis in Gaza
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Pretty meaningless on its own, though at least it being Starmer saying it counters Netanyahu’s usual defence of antisemitism. It would take pressure from within Israel itself and also the Jewish community abroad to make anything change. It’s starting to happen but not fast enough.



www.independent.co.uk

Meet the Refusers: Israeli teenagers risk jail to refuse conscription to the IDF

Ostracised by the public and facing military prison, Israeli teen ‘refusers’ are burning their IDF draft letters in protest at its actions in Gaza. Alex Croft speaks to them about life on the fringes of Israeli society
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk

www.theguardian.com

Israel committing genocide in Gaza, say Israel-based human rights groups

Reports detailing intentional targeting of Palestinians as a group, and systemic destruction of Palestinian society, add to pressure for action
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

danielgordis.substack.com

Yonit Levi: "Maybe it's time to acknowledge that this isn't a PR problem, but a moral problem."

The tsunami of change across Israeli media, journalists, and bloggers is stunning. A trickle of suggestions that Israel isn't blameless in the hunger situation has morphed into a torrent of rage.
danielgordis.substack.com danielgordis.substack.com

Sadly the one person who could probably end the conflict, the "President Of Peace", isn't interested. Maybe someone should tell him doing it would guarantee him the Nobel Peace Prize he craves.
 
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www.pm.gc.ca

Statement by Prime Minister Carney on Canada’s recognition of a Palestinian state

For decades, it was hoped that this outcome would be achieved as part of a peace process built around a negotiated settlement between the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority.
www.pm.gc.ca www.pm.gc.ca

For these reasons, Canada intends to recognize the State of Palestine at the 80th Session of the United Nations General Assembly in September 2025.

This intention is predicated on the Palestinian Authority’s commitment to much-needed reforms, including the commitments by Palestinian Authority President Abbas to fundamentally reform its governance, to hold general elections in 2026 in which Hamas can play no part, and to demilitarize the Palestinian state. Canada will increase its efforts in supporting strong, democratic governance in Palestine and the contributions of its people to a more peaceful and hopeful future.

We reiterate that Hamas must immediately release all hostages taken in the horrific terrorist attack of October 7; that Hamas must disarm; and that Hamas must play no role in the future governance of Palestine. Canada will always steadfastly support Israel’s existence as an independent state in the Middle East living in peace and security. Any path to lasting peace for Israel also requires a viable and stable Palestinian state, and one that recognizes Israel’s inalienable right to security and peace.
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From Israel's standpoint, the conflict has nothing to do with Palestine, and everything to do with Hamas.
As long as they hold hostages, they are persona non grata.
Hamas/Iran is responsible for destroying Palestine.
 
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sturk0167
From Israel's standpoint, the conflict has nothing to do with Palestine, and everything to do with Hamas.
As long as they hold hostages, they are persona non grata.
Hamas/Iran is responsible for destroying Palestine.
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They sure are killing a lot of innocent Palestinians for Israel not to have an issue with them. Israel is nothing but a genocidal state, but any time someone calls them out on it, they run and scream about people being "antisemetic". It has absolutely nothing to do with Israel being Jewish and everything to do with them wanting to commit genocide. It's sickening considering what many living Israelis went through in their lifetime.
 
Ah yes, this conflict definitely isn't part of a decades-long continuation of war between Israel & Palestine that existed long before Hamas was even founded & even longer before Hamas took control of Gaza.

But, I suppose it's that time of the year to attempt at trolling outside the GT forum.
Tired Imfreshdoe GIF by Fre$h
 
Joey D
They sure are killing a lot of innocent Palestinians for Israel not to have an issue with them. Israel is nothing but a genocidal state, but any time someone calls them out on it, they run and scream about people being "antisemetic". It has absolutely nothing to do with Israel being Jewish and everything to do with them wanting to commit genocide. It's sickening considering what many living Israelis went through in their lifetime.
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Everything about the conflict has to do with Israel being a non-Islamic State.
It is 100% a religious war.
Any argument to the contrary is disingenuous.
 

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