Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Fezzik]

There has been a noticeable change in tone of the news coverage in the UK recently (other than the BBC). Definitely more critical of Israel.

 

[Fezzik]

https://www.foxnews.com/world/israel-security-cabinet-approves-plan-occupy-gaza-city

Netanyahu divides Israelis and allies with plan to take over Gaza

The Israeli PM's proposals have raised warnings from the army leadership and opposition from hostage families.

www.bbc.co.uk

Prolonging and escaling the conflict. Will likely lead to the deaths of the remaining hostages, many Israeli soldiers and many more civilians but that doesn't matter to Netanyahu. This is the price demanded by his far-right coalition partners to keep him in power (and out of prison). They'll likely try next to suspend the elections due next year, as it wouldn't be right to hold them during a time of war.

A decision so internationally unpopular that even Germany is against it:

Germany to stop arms sales to Israel that could be used in Gaza after takeover plan approved - live updates

Gazans say they fear more destruction and displacement, while Israeli hostages' families say their loved ones are "at the mercy of Hamas".

www.bbc.co.uk

Germany will suspend its arms exports to Israel which could be used in the Gaza Strip, Chancellor Friedrich Merz says in reaction to Israel's plans to takeover Gaza City.

Speaking moments ago, Merz says his government will not approve any exports of military equipment to Israel that could be used in Gaza until further notice.

Merz says it was "increasingly difficult to understand" how the Israeli military plan would help achieve legitimate aims, adding: "Under these circumstances, the German government will not authorise any exports of military equipment that could be used in the Gaza Strip until further notice."

Historically, Germany has been one of the largest arms suppliers to Israel.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Palestine needs to be freed from Hamas and Mahmoud Abbas.

 

[Scaff]

Palestine needs to be freed from Hamas and Mahmoud Abbas.

Yeah, they are the biggest concern for the people of Palestine right now!

Nothing at all to do with Israel starting to annex a good part of Gaza, moving forward with plans to split the West Bank in two, and indulging in a bit of forced population displacement. All of which are at best illegal under international law, and at worst are war crimes.

 

[Liquid]

Palestine needs to be freed from Hamas and Mahmoud Abbas.

Bringing this up unprompted, two weeks after anyone had last posted anything, is quite bizarre.

You won't find anyone here supporting Hamas. The simple fact is that people in Gaza are trapped in the world's largest prison and the genocidal state next door with significantly more firepower, backing and international support is doing everything it can to exterminate them.

 

[Famine]

the world's largest prison

Something you'd think an Australian might know a thing or two about...


And for those having trouble hearing at the back there, the Netanyahu administration literally, and in no meaningful way secretively, funded Hamas.

 

[Liquid]

Equally, Israel needs to be freed from Likud and Benjamin Netanyahu.

 

[Blitz24]

Equally, Israel needs to be freed from Likud and Benjamin Netanyahu.

Not just them. Ben Gvir and Smotrich should have NEVER been allowed to run for their parties. They were arrested for extremism when they were younger.

 

[ImmalovemaGTR]

Palestine needs to be freed from Hamas and Mahmoud Abbas.

So during a time when we can see pictures of starving children, we read reports and see videos of occupation soldiers deliberately targeting civilians who are desperately trying to get food you come in this forum at random and post this to... provoke? Does it make you feel better to even deny Palestinians the truth of who is killing and torturing them en masse at the moment, while they are already being denied the most basic human rights?

 

[Fezzik]

Revealed: Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war

Figures from classified IDF database listed 8,900 named fighters as dead or probably dead in May, as overall death toll reached 53,000

www.theguardian.com

Figures from a classified Israeli military intelligence database indicate five out of six Palestinians killed by Israeli forces in Gaza have been civilians, an extreme rate of slaughter rarely matched in recent decades of warfare.

As of May, 19 months into the war, Israeli intelligence officials listed 8,900 named fighters from Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad as dead or “probably dead”, a joint investigation by the Guardian, the Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine and the Hebrew-language outlet Local Call has found.

At that time 53,000 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli attacks, according to health authorities in Gaza, a toll that included combatants and civilians. Fighters named in the Israeli military intelligence database accounted for just 17% of the total, which indicates that 83% of the dead were civilians.

That apparent ratio of civilians to combatants among the dead is extremely high for modern warfare, even compared with conflicts notorious for indiscriminate killing, including the Syrian and Sudanese civil wars.

Hardly a proportional response to the Hamas attack, but completely in line with the aims of the people in charge of Israel's government and militray.

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/head-idf-military-intelligence-haliva-gaza-deaths-necessary-chijsksd

The former head of the IDF’s Military Intelligence Directorate has said that 50,000 deaths in the Gaza War were “necessary” to make Palestinians “feel the price” of October 7.


In a recording obtained by Israel’s Channel 12 News, Major General Aharon Haliva said: "For everything that happened on October 7, for every one person on October 7, 50 Palestinians must die.


"It doesn’t matter now if they are children.”


"The fact that there are already 50,000 dead in Gaza is necessary and required for future generations,” Haliva said in the recordings.


"There is no choice — every now and then, they need a Nakba [the Arabic word for catastrophe] in order to feel the price."

Hamas are vile criminals and killers, but they are not the only ones in that region.

 

[Random 79]

Something you'd think an Australian might know a thing or two about...

Not looking to derail this thread, but not cool, Famine.

While it's true that a couple states were established as penal colonies, most of the rest of the country was settled by people who chose to relocate here.

Also, we live in one of the safest countries in the world with one of the most stable governments in the world. To suggest that we can relate to the hell that's going on in Palestine? I don't even know what word to use.

Also, straight from your terms of service:

Section 12: Prohibited Uses​

In addition to other prohibitions as set forth in the Terms of Service, you are prohibited from using the site or its content: (a) for any unlawful purpose; (b) to solicit others to perform or participate in any unlawful acts; (c) to violate any international, federal, provincial or state regulations, rules, laws, or local ordinances; (d) to infringe upon or violate our intellectual property rights or the intellectual property rights of others; (e) to harass, abuse, insult, harm, defame, slander, disparage, intimidate, or discriminate based on gender, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, race, age, national origin, or disability

I'll trust you to spot the relevant bit.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm having a bit of a cry, but lead by example, man.

 

[p78]

One can only hope the world forces the Zionist state to solely pay for the rebuild of Palestine.

 

[Fezzik]

Not looking to derail this thread, but not cool, Famine.

While it's true that a couple states were established as penal colonies, most of the rest of the country was settled by people who chose to relocate here.

Also, straight from your terms of service:

Section 12: Prohibited Uses​

In addition to other prohibitions as set forth in the Terms of Service, you are prohibited from using the site or its content: (a) for any unlawful purpose; (b) to solicit others to perform or participate in any unlawful acts; (c) to violate any international, federal, provincial or state regulations, rules, laws, or local ordinances; (d) to infringe upon or violate our intellectual property rights or the intellectual property rights of others; (e) to harass, abuse, insult, harm, defame, slander, disparage, intimidate, or discriminate based on gender, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, race, age, national origin, or disability
I'll trust you to spot the relevant bit.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm having a bit of a cry, but lead by example, man.

Yeah, if anything the Australian comparison would be the suppression of an existing population by settlers.

 

[Random 79]

Yeah, if anything the Australian comparison would be the suppression of an existing population by settlers.

Not sure if you were trying to get a rise, but yep, that's fair. There was lot of unforgivable **** that happened, but the big difference here is that our government has recognised that and is trying to make things better.

 

[Famine]

Complaining about examples after making up a bunch of stuff that wasn't in the post in any form and getting offended enough about it to irrelevantly quote a TOS is... a mood, for sure.

It'll be fun to see where this goes.

 

[Random 79]

Complaining about examples after making up a bunch of stuff that wasn't in the post in any form and getting offended enough about it to irrelevantly quote a TOS is... a mood, for sure.

It'll be fun to see where this goes.

Okay, help me out here:

Before I posted anything at all here, Liquid wrote a post including the comment "The simple fact is that people in Gaza are trapped in the world's largest prison". I agree with this by the way.

You immediately replied with "Something you'd think an Australian might know a thing or two about...", which was an unprompted and totally inappropriate comment.

So I responded with a fact (you can check it) and yes, I quoted your TOS where it says (and I'm going to condense this to make it easier)

"you are prohibited from using the site or its content to harass, abuse, insult, harm, defame, slander, disparage, intimidate, or discriminate based on national origin"

So, two questions:

Where did I make up a bunch of stuff and how did I irrelevantly quote the TOS?

All that aside, do you think it was a good idea to compare living in a safe and free country to living in Gaza right now, especially for the sake of making a bad and clichéd joke?

Never mind me, ask the people in Gaza if they thought it was funny.

 

[Blitz24]

Okay, help me out here:

Before I posted anything at all here, Liquid wrote a post including the comment "The simple fact is that people in Gaza are trapped in the world's largest prison". I agree with this by the way.

You immediately replied with "Something you'd think an Australian might know a thing or two about...", which was an unprompted and totally inappropriate comment.

So I responded with a fact (you can check it) and yes, I quoted your TOS where it says (and I'm going to condense this to make it easier)

"you are prohibited from using the site or its content to harass, abuse, insult, harm, defame, slander, disparage, intimidate, or discriminate based on national origin"

So, two questions:

Where did I make up a bunch of stuff and how did I irrelevantly quote the TOS?

All that aside, do you think it was a good idea to compare living in a safe and free country to living in Gaza right now, especially for the sake of making a bad and clichéd joke?

Never mind me, ask the people in Gaza if they thought it was funny.

Which also wasn't directed at you and was pointing at the fact that Australia used to be a penal colony. He could have also used Georgia as an example but your reaction is disproportionate.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Never mind me, ask the people in Gaza if they thought it was funny

They have almost definitely got more serious things to worry about at the moment, than whether a snowflake is melting in the Australian climate.

 

[Random 79]

Which also wasn't directed at you and was pointing at the fact that Australia used to be a penal colony. He could have also used Georgia as an example but your reaction is disproportionate.

No, not directly as an individual; it was pointed at all Australians which is kind of the point.

And yes, Australia was started as a penal colony (as were many other places), but that was quite a while ago.

 

[Famine]

Where did I make up a bunch of stuff

do you think it was a good idea to compare living in a safe and free country to living in Gaza right now

Right there. Find Gaza or Palestine in my post. Anywhere at all. Even in the separate bit (marked by the double-spaced paragraph) literally referencing Hamas and the fact that the Netanyahu administration pretty openly funded it - which is a point that shouldn't be buried by this bizarre aside.

You've conflated two things that I didn't connect, and then kicked off at me about doing so when I didn't. Well, actually three things...

it was pointed at all Australians

...because I didn't say anything negative about Australia, Australians, or reference the makeup of the country during the Transportation Era as you subsequently chose to clarify.

Was Australia formerly the world's largest prison? Pretty much, yup. Should Australians (like the person being addressed by the comments of which @Liquid's was one) be familiar with this concept - and perhaps slightly more than maybe anyone other than the British (what with it being part of our joint histories)? Pretty much, yup.

Everything you've spun off about is your own invention.

 

[Random 79]

Right there. Find Gaza or Palestine in my post. Anywhere at all. Even in the separate bit (marked by the double-spaced paragraph) literally referencing Hamas and the fact that the Netanyahu administration pretty openly funded it - which is a point that shouldn't be buried by this bizarre aside.

You've conflated two things that I didn't connect, and then kicked off at me about doing so when I didn't. Well, actually three things...

...because I didn't say anything negative about Australia, Australians, or reference the makeup of the country during the Transportation Era as you subsequently chose to clarify.

Was Australia formerly the world's largest prison? Pretty much, yup. Should Australians (like the person being addressed by the comments of which @Liquid's was one) be familiar with this concept - and perhaps slightly more than maybe anyone other than the British (what with it being part of our joint histories)? Pretty much, yup.

Everything you've spun off about is your own invention.

Okay, technically you didn't connect it with Gaza or Palestine directly, but it did go from discussing Gaza and Palestine to mentioning prison to mentioning Australia.

"I didn't say anything negative about Australia, Australians"

But you did. You implied that being in the world's largest prison is something that an Australian might know something about.

I get why you connected world's largest prison to Australia, no-one's denying that it was at one time and you're right, we generally are well aware of the fact, but the vast majority of us have no idea what it's like to be in any kind of prison (except what we see on TV)

Basically reading that comment surprised the hell out of me (especially coming from the guy running the site) so if I overreacted I apologise, but I still think it was uncalled for.

 

[Famine]

Okay, technically you didn't connect it with Gaza or Palestine directly

Or indeed actually.

but it did go from discussing Gaza and Palestine to mentioning prison to mentioning Australia.

Again, I was replying to specifically the world's largest prison comment by @Liquid which was itself addressed to an Australian who'd made the facile comment about Hamas/Abbas.

"I didn't say anything negative about Australia, Australians"

But you did. You implied that being in the world's largest prison is something that an Australian might know something about.

Nope. Didn't mention anything about being in one, and certainly implied nothing. What I said was what was originally quoted: that the world's largest prison is something you'd think an Australian might know something about. As it's a fundamental part of Australian history.

(especially coming from the guy running the site)

That'd be @Jordan. I just write stuff and occasionally tidy up every now and then.

if I overreacted

I'd say so, considering much of what you reacted to wasn't even there.

I apologise

Appreciated.


Can we get back to the part where the Netanyahu administration, rather openly, directly funded Hamas over many years approaching the October 7th atrocity - thus making the guy currently in charge of systematically flattening the Gaza Strip with an estimated 86% direct civilian casualty rate (excluding those dying of preventable diseases and malnutrition due to inaccessibility of food and water) not only culpable for the ethnic cleansing there but - knowing Hamas's aims - the attack that he's using as an excuse to carry it out and therefore also guilty of treason against his own people?

 

[Random 79]

That'd be @Jordan. I just write stuff and occasionally tidy up every now and then.

No worries, my misunderstanding.

Back on topic, do we think a bunch of countries supporting Palestine at the UNGA next month will change things for the better?

I'm thinking it's probably too little too late, but I'm very much hoping that I'm wrong.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Bringing this up unprompted, two weeks after anyone had last posted anything, is quite bizarre.

To you it may but I read some rather incriminating information about the leaders in Gaza and The West Bank. Hamas and Mahmoud Abbas HATE Jews and will never be satisfied until Israel is eliminated.

You won't find anyone here supporting Hamas. The simple fact is that people in Gaza are trapped in the world's largest prison and the genocidal state next door with significantly more firepower, backing and international support is doing everything it can to exterminate them.

Gaza is a "prison" because of Hamas, not Israel.

Something you'd think an Australian might know a thing or two about...

You're a funny man because none of my ancestors were convicts... My great grandfather came from Scotland and my grandparents on mum's side came from Poland.

And for those having trouble hearing at the back there, the Netanyahu administration literally, and in no meaningful way secretively, funded Hamas.

No they didn't. Hamas STOLE funds that were designated for ordinary Palestinians.

 

[Famine]

You're a funny man because none of my ancestors were convicts...

Who said that they were?

No they didn't. Hamas STOLE funds that were designated for ordinary Palestinians.

Mm-hmm.

Liberman: Netanyahu sent Mossad head, general to Qatar, ‘begged’ it to pay Hamas

Yisrael Beytenu party leader says the pair were sent by PM two weeks ago to convince Doha not to end its money transfers to the Gaza-based terror group

www.timesofisrael.com

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

www.timesofisrael.com

‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas (Published 2023)

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gambled that a strong Hamas (but not too strong) would keep the peace and reduce pressure for a Palestinian state.

www.nytimes.com

Netanyahu has openly supported the idea of funding Hamas, in order to keep Palestinians divided (between Hamas and Fatah) and weaken any Palestinian Authority. It allows him to pretend there's no diplomacy possible because the PA is unstable.

Of course he's also denied actually doing it despite all the evidence that he, in fact, has done it.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Netanyahu has openly supported the idea of funding Hamas, in order to keep Palestinians divided (between Hamas and Fatah) and weaken any Palestinian Authority. It allows him to pretend there's no diplomacy possible because the PA is unstable.

Diplomacy isn't possible when no one is willing to give in...

 

[Imari]

To you it may but I read some rather incriminating information about the leaders in Gaza and The West Bank. Hamas and Mahmoud Abbas HATE Jews and will never be satisfied until Israel is eliminated.

They hate Zionists, for sure. Given how Israel behaves and has behaved towards Palestine since it's creation, I think it's pretty reasonable for Palestinians to want to see the elimination of Israel. That may not be fair on a lot of Israelis, but how Palestine is treated is also not fair on Palestinians.

Gaza is a "prison" because of Hamas, not Israel.

Oh dear, are we in another situation where you've gotten your information from certain types of media and people with significant agendas instead of trying to learn factually about the current and historical events?

You keep doing this, bro.

Diplomacy isn't possible when no one is willing to give in...

There have been notable efforts on the Palestinian side to reach some sort of compromise, because they know that's the only way this really ends for them. The Zionists are the ones that block them, which is funny because realistically Israel was founded on a genocide and occupation and so really shouldn't be entitled to anything at all. Yet they're the ones pushing the Palestinians into smaller enclaves, stealing their land and shooting them. The Palestinians are the people who were living there before the Zionists decided that they wanted that particular piece of dirt for themselves.

Palestine was a mixed Muslim and Jewish country, but the Zionists couldn't accept anything where they wouldn't have absolute power. That continues to be true and it's why they will not accept an independent Palestinian state. They continue to try and oppress the Palestinians out of existence. The Palestinians are defending themselves from an existential threat, and frankly a lot of pretty nasty **** becomes fair game when you're fighting for your life.

The Israelis would like you to believe that they're also fighting for their existence, but that's not true. Hamas and other terrorist groups can kill some Israelis, but when the high water mark of success is killing ~1500 people at a festival it means that a country of 10 million people isn't in immediate danger of being wiped out. Especially not when they have a modern military, conscription, nuclear weapons and the backing of the single largest military power in the whole world.

 

[Scaff]

To you it may but I read some rather incriminating information about the leaders in Gaza and The West Bank. Hamas and Mahmoud Abbas HATE Jews and will never be satisfied until Israel is eliminated.

The exact same accusation with regard to Palestinians can be levelled at senior members of the Israeli government, odd that you give them a free pass.

Gaza is a "prison" because of Hamas, not Israel.

Israel has carried out blockades of Gaza since at least 1991, Hamas never came to power until 2007, try again.

You're a funny man because none of my ancestors were convicts... My great grandfather came from Scotland and my grandparents on mum's side came from Poland.

And they are, as a result, unaware of Australia's history as a penal colony? Schools in Oz need better history teachers.

No they didn't. Hamas STOLE funds that were designated for ordinary Palestinians.

It's literally a matter of public record that Israel (and Netenyahu) funded Hamas. They did so to scupper a two-state solution, and it blew up in their faces.

Hell, Netenyahu can be directly quoted on the subject:

“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” - B. Netenyahu 2019.

How Israel helped prop up Hamas for decades | Analyst News

What is Hamas, and why has Israel deliberately enabled its existence for years?

www.analystnews.org

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

www.timesofisrael.com

Israeli support for Hamas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And on the subject of stealing funds designated for ordinary Palestinians (and aside from you ignoring the amount of land Israel has stolen from them):

How Israel controls $188 million of Palestinian money every month

Palestinian tax revenue destined for Gaza has been frozen by Israel since November – here’s what’s happening now.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[ScottPuss20]

Hell, Netenyahu can be directly quoted on the subject:

“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” - B. Netenyahu 2019.

Well I can't support that.

 

[Scaff]

Well I can't support that.

And what about the rest of Israel's actions?

Now that you are aware they are based on a situation that they deliberatly created?