JGTC S4 Discussion/Ideas Thread

I'm in agreement with Neil, I want the S1-S2 style series we've been running. I like just about everthing in the current JGTC format, there are some minor things that need addressing. Eats, I see where you're coming from but I'll go where the JGTC stays as close to S1 and S2 as possible.

And I can't think of anyone better then Neil to run S3 if eats doesn't want to do it anymore. I understand eats that the dropout rate is discouraging, but in all honesty, your lack of interest lately hasn't helped any. I know several of us have been quite dissapointed in your attitude of late, because we work hard week after week just as we promised, but you just don't seem to care anymore, maybe I'm way off base, but that's how it appears to some of us. Unfortunatly the hard core drivers left in the JGTC are the ones paying for your indifference. It's a shame you lost interest this season, cause you are without a doubt one of the best race coordinators here at GTP.

Long Live the JGTC!!
 
And I can't think of anyone better then Neil to run S3 if eats doesn't want to do it anymore. I understand eats that the dropout rate is discouraging, but in all honesty, your lack of interest lately hasn't helped any. I know several of us have been quite dissapointed in your attitude of late, because we work hard week after week just as we promised, but you just don't seem to care anymore, maybe I'm way off base, but that's how it appears to some of us. Unfortunatly the hard core drivers left in the JGTC are the ones paying for your indifference. It's a shame you lost interest this season, cause you are without a doubt one of the best race coordinators here at GTP.

Long Live the JGTC!!

100% in agreement, I'm always honest and I'll say it. S2 pissed me off bad, from my point of view if I have to rate this I'd give it a 4 out of 10, where the previous seasons were in the 7-8 range. To tell the truth I had no fun hosting it this time around. To have a teammate shiat in your hands for a second consecutive season and right off the bat on top of that...and when you're the admin to top it off. It gives you a feeling that what you're doing in reality isn't really respected, the shame is that it's the real hardcore faithful JGTC drivers having to pay in the end for all this.

To rebound after this and host something top notch for S3 is very doable, and would be quite easy I might had. But the so called "respect" must come from both sides.

I'm now listening with attention on everything posted in this thread, new ideas and suggestions to repep the fun factor. But all the rules & settings tweaks in the world are worthless without something called "active participation".
 
To be honest with you Eats, 'active participation' as you put it, or bums in driving seats, as I would call it, will happen quite naturally.
If, and only if, the steward of the series relaxes, himself, and let's the guys know that if they are ill, on holiday, locked-up, or having to tend to real-life situations and have to miss a race or two. They are not going to a) let thier team-mate down (because the temp driver can be used), b) get penalised by the race steward, and c) will not get perminantly banned from ever participating again.

A lot of the guys that could have raced this season didn't because of the draconian rules that you set out! This is, after all is said and done, a game!
A part-time relaxation, a pass-time, a hobby!
We don't do it because we make any money at it, we do it because we enjoy it. And having to commit to every single race in the series, without exception, is something that some of the good, normally reliable people on GTP just cannot do without some reservations.

Also, IMO, only allowing one driver per car in the GT500's discouraged at least two of the best drivers on the (GT)planet from taking part. The presence of just those two drivers would have brought others into the fold and kept the interest levels up.

The teams being made up by yourself, is also a mistake IMO.
If two guys that know and trust each other, and are real mates, want to be team-mates then they should be! Neither will ever want to let the other down, and the long term commitment is already there, pre-packaged and ready to use!


As far as "the so called 'respect'"( that comment rankles me a quite a bit! ) you expect to come from both sides.........

It will come, but only if you respect us and keep to your word AND keep to your side of the bargain.
You demand that we submit our times at, or before, a deadline. Then take 1-5 days to post the results!
Usually it was after the races that your response time was at it's worst, and that is when we NEED to know the results so we can set our P/W to the correct figure to qualify.
We committed to be in this series for the long haul, and visa versa, so did you!

I would suggest, that a PM only system be used for the upcoming season, times etc only sent to 'you' and the back-up!
Replays should be posted in the appropriate thread after the deadline, as we can all then check each-other's replays and take the strain off you and the PAL replay checker you use!
The results can then be processed very quickly, by either the steward or the backup!
Checking of replays can be done over the next 24 hrs by all of us, and everyone is happy!
Any replays that turn out to be dirty, or otherwise unsatisfactory can be DQ'd & maybe have a 10 second penalty added to thier racetime, as if they hadn't qualified.
Also this method will allow those interested to learn from the faster guys, and again improve the general quality of the driving in the JGTC.

Anyway!

Here is what I would consider to be a suitable race schedule, or at least a list of the races I would propose.

As the racetime should be between 30-45 mins I might consider setting the lap count's at least 2 races ahead of time. This would allow a driver going on holiday to race before-hand and get thier team-mate to PM the time in on schedule (that is if the temp driver isn't used for that race)

(W)=World circuit (O)=Original circuit (C)=you guessed it....City circuit

(W) Circuit De La Sarthe 1
(W) Tsukuba
(O) Grand Valley
(C) Cote D'azure
(W) Fuji 90's
(O) Deep Forest (reverse)
(C) Seattle (Reverse) - the same way as the licence test in the Ford GT
(W) Infineon Sportscar (Sears Point)
(O) Midfield Raceway
(C) Seoul Central
(W) Motegi Road Course
(O) Autumn Ring
(C) Tokyo R246
(W) Laguna Seca
(O) El Capitan
(C) Special Stage Route 5 (reverse)
(W) Suzuka
(O) Apricot Hill
(W) Nurburgring Nordschleife


Now, obviously, Eats has yet to decide whether to run S3 or not. I hope he doesn't take long to do so, for all our sakes.

Neil
 
Whoa man! I said longer season, but YIKES! That season is 38 weeks long! Way too long at two weeks a venue...

Also, we all (well, those who tried) know how hard the 'Ring is using Arcade JGTC. Tough, but probably okay for a 5 / 6 lapper. Use Autumn Ring Mini as the qualy track though. I don't want to sit through multiple 7 minute laps to qualify.

La Sarthe? Okay, fine... Might be a fun enduro race too. Make it 1.5 hours or so on Mild tire wear and it might be fun once a season.

I still like the Sprint/Main race scenario with sprints setting the grid with 1/2 the points up for grab as the main, and sprints on no tire wear. I'm flexible about penalty weight applying for sprint races, but I don't think we should gain penalty weight from the results - just like current qualifying.

The time advantage from qualifying higher would be a cool twist especially if we sprint race on no wear and stock power/weight since if the faster guys get chubby on weight for the race, at LEAST they could have the opportunity to make time on qual. Also, with a 15 minute sprint, there'd be a large enough spread in finish times that the actual advantage of track position could make a difference in the race results. Also, I say Medium tires for sprint races so flat out and steer doesn't reign. Single lap qual on RSS is fine, but for sprints, let's run RM or RH.

I looked up the penalty weight system for Speed World Challenge today and only the podium finishers gain weight. 4th gains/loses nothing, then 5th back loses weight. I like it.

Sure is fun thinking about the future. Really excited about getting going again.

BTW, I'd keep my current car. Very happy with it. Car choice was definintely not a detrimental factor for me. Just my data point...

-SHig
 
So far this is what I like :

Qualification 1 lap
Sprint Race 10-15 mins
Main Race 40-45 mins



Quali run with the current season's weight and power.
RSS Tires


Sprint race is done at default weight but still keeping the hp air restrictor penalty (if any based on wins) on. Fraction of the main race of the pts rewarded.
RM Tires
No Tire Wear

Main race is done with the typical weight & hp in effect at the time.
Choice from RS-RM-RH Tires
Strong Tire Wear




Now we must think of a system of time reward/penalty based on the results of the qualifications to influence the race grid. X amount of time per position, reverse grids, cut in the middle and from there reverse. How to set this up?


Give any ideas.
 
No problem, mate! 👍

The main aim of what I am doing, is to keep the best long-race series on GTP going, and make it even more successfull than it is already!

If you choose run with it for another season, and use the suggestions I (and others) have made, to make the series better and more flexible. It can only be good for us all, and you will have my full support (and help, if you want it) for as long as you run the series.

Rules are rules!
BUT, if the rules are too constrictive and too inflexible, no-one will want to play within them (as has happened this season). You have to allow for RL situations interupting the flow of this virtual race series, and the allowing of temp drivers, new signings (to part-time) and replacemant team members will solve this problem and keep the submission rate up for the whole series!


LONG LIVE THE JGTC!

Neil
 
Qualif from Monday until Friday (given Sunday night)
Sprint Race from Monday until Saturday (given the same Sunday night)
Main Race from Sunday until the next Sunday (given Saturday night)

To put this in a real world exemple

Qualif from Sep 11 until Sep 15 (given Sep 10 night)
Sprint Race from Sep 11 until Sep 16 (given Sep 10 night)
Main Race from Sep 17 until Sep 24 (given Sep 16 night)

So to sum it up, 5 days to qualif, running at the same time 6 days for the sprint race and 8 days for the main race.


Any input please?
 
Whoa man! I said longer season, but YIKES! That season is 38 weeks long! Way too long at two weeks a venue...

Also, we all (well, those who tried) know how hard the 'Ring is using Arcade JGTC. Tough, but probably okay for a 5 / 6 lapper. Use Autumn Ring Mini as the qualy track though. I don't want to sit through multiple 7 minute laps to qualify.

La Sarthe? Okay, fine... Might be a fun enduro race too. Make it 1.5 hours or so on Mild tire wear and it might be fun once a season.

I still like the Sprint/Main race scenario with sprints setting the grid with 1/2 the points up for grab as the main, and sprints on no tire wear. I'm flexible about penalty weight applying for sprint races, but I don't think we should gain penalty weight from the results - just like current qualifying.


-SHig
Yeah I know!
Really it is just a 'wish-list', obviously I would have asked for a vote of sorts on some of the tracks.
But La Sarthe is a beautiful track and needs to be included, and the 'Ring is one of the reasons that (if we are honest with ourselves) we bought GT4 for, and Seattle is a must also!

So far this is what I like :

Qualification 1 lap
Sprint Race 10-15 mins
Main Race 40-45 mins



Quali run with the current season's weight and power.
RSS Tires


Sprint race is done at default weight but still keeping the hp air restrictor penalty (if any based on wins) on. Fraction of the main race of the pts rewarded.
RM Tires
No Tire Wear

Main race is done with the typical weight & hp in effect at the time.
Choice from RS-RM-RH Tires
Strong Tire Wear




Now we must think of a system of time reward/penalty based on the results of the qualifications to influence the race grid. X amount of time per position, reverse grids, cut in the middle and from there reverse. How to set this up?


Give any ideas.
OK,

I like the 1 Lap/Sprint/enduro idea, and the tyre/tyre wear choices are spot on too!
Some races, notably La Sarthe, should be longer with mild tyre wear as SHig suggested.

Looking good so far!

Neil
 
Qualif from Monday until Friday (given Sunday night)
Sprint Race from Monday until Saturday (given the same Sunday night)
Main Race from Sunday until the next Sunday (given Saturday night)

To put this in a real world exemple

Qualif from Sep 11 until Sep 15 (given Sep 10 night)
Sprint Race from Sep 11 until Sep 16 (given Sep 10 night)
Main Race from Sep 17 until Sep 24 (given Sep 16 night)

So to sum it up, 5 days to qualif, running at the same time 6 days for the sprint race and 8 days for the main race.


Any input please?

Well there is no sense in saying quali for 5 days, sprint for 6 days, and submit on the sunday.

That just complicates things. Just say first week is 1 lap quali AND sprint race, Sunday-Sunday.
Second week is long race, Sunday-Sunday.

Otherwise that's fine!

Neil
 
(W) Fuji Speedway 2005 GT
(O) Grand Valley
(C) Cote D'azure
(W) Fuji 90's
(C) Seattle (Reverse) - the same way as the licence test in the Ford GT
(W) Nurburgring Nordschleife (Emulate 24h, JGTC teams used to attend.)
(W) Infineon Sportscar (Sears Point)
(O) Midfield Raceway
(W) Motegi Road Course
(O) Autumn Ring
(C) Tokyo R246
(W) Laguna Seca
(W) Suzuka (Emulate 1000km)
(O) Apricot Hill

I took Neil's schedule and made a few changes. It's really just my take on what a reasonable length schedule would look like. If the current schedule is 12, why not make the increase to 14?

m.piedgros
 
Negative. IMO JGTC don't belong at La Sarthe. Maybe some GT300 Porsche's can make the trip to do the Le Mans 24 Hour. I of course, am not married to the schedule, and would certainly run in a JGTC here that did go to La Sarthe. But... if I was running the series you wouldn't see La Sarthe on the schedule.

m.piedgros
 
From now on post anything related to a weight/performance penalty system you might have on your mind. The more ideas we have to choose from the higher will be our chances to land on a perfect concept. 👍
 
Excellent progress here! One question though, why bother with RSS qualy at all? By doing a flying lap qualy plus a sprint in one week, you're doubling our time investment. I'd PERSONALLY like to have just one or the other, preferably just the sprint race. I'd like to be able to concentrate and dedicate myselt to one "event" per week.

Courses aren't gonna be a deal breaker at all so I'll let you all wrangle that. The only thing I want to say is if you're for an enduro at the 'Ring, TRY getting in 8 laps clean at a reasonable 9/10ths pace without flying off into the trees. VERY difficult and discouraging if you can't put one together.

Keep the ideas coming.

-SHig
 
Here are my 2 cents.

The race series was about 5% away from perfect !

Here is my opinion what needs to be changed.

1 - full/part timers have to get their points separately ! It can't be, that a part-timer (when ever he feels to race) takes away important points of a full-timer fighting for the championship, b/c he's in a light car.

2 - weight penalty system wasn't fair at all this season, because of those SLACKERS ! I'm with you here, Ev4l ! If you don't have the balls, then just don't waste our time.

3 - results ! ...have to be up when they are supposed to be, no matter what ! Backup host is a must !

4 - Host has to submit his time before deadline to the backup host !!!

5 - it would be nice to see the tire and pit strategy of each contender. Only Ev4l had this information this season what wasn't fair either !

cheers
 
Ok Eats, I have been thinking about this(obviously:) )

Taking into account, that if you let team-mates choose each-other, and therefor there could be two fast guy's teamed together...

start all cars on -10% weight to begin with!

Then set the weight pen system to

1st=+3
2nd=+2
3rd=+1
4th=+0
5th=+0
6th=+0
7th=+0
8th=-1
9th=-3
all below= -4

Now I know that's optimistic as far as entrants goes but, we have to be, don't we?

It doesn't matter how many entrants per race, the weight penalties should stay the same!

With the starting weight being -10, there is the posibility of +20% weight over the slowest driver.
Also because the system doesn't change, it makes the calculations simple and easy to enforce.

The advantange of this sytem is that it partially negates the effects of 'sandbagging' which is a dispicable act and any of us that have done it should be totally ashamed of ourselves.
'WE' are racers, we play on here to win, we play on here to compete and be the best we can be!

Even in the WRS, there are those that say "If you have a clean lap, you should submit it! No matter how bad it is!"
I however feel that if I haven't given the combo my fullest attention, a damn good go, and feel that I have given my best, then I shouldn't submit my time!

If, I have not given the combo my 'best effort' why should I feel that I deserve to take some points from someone who has?

I, in the S2 have been running with weight pens and Hp pens for the last few races and still managed to get 2nd last race! HOW?
Sand-bagging, that's how!

Some of the drivers I completely trust to race thier heart out, re-start when they screw-up, not accept penalties! (you know who you are guys!), but others freely admit to 'sandbagging' a race to get a lower weight for the next round.
This, 'WE' should actively discourage, and making it harder to lose weight than gain it is the only way!

Also if a known 'fast-guy' suddenly loses pace and performs below his abilities, he should be warned for the first infraction, and have points deducted for the second! Unless he has a valid reason of course. Like the death of his DFP and having to use a DS2 pad(which anyone can detect in a replay if they know what to look for)) and that should be over the whole series! ie 'sandbag' race 5, get a warning! Sandbag race 13, get points deducted!

I know some guys may say, " it's impossible to spot when someone is sandbagging, and impossible to enforce", but it's not!
I for one, commit all I have to every race! I can tell when I am just 'along for the ride' just from seeing the replay!
Every racer in this series should act with the same HONOUR!

WE ARE RACERS, WE WANT TO WIN!
BUT WE WILL ALWAYS BE FAIR, AND HONEST, AND TRUE TO THE SPIRIT OF THE FIGHT!


Neil
 
As far as points and weights I'll leave that to those more adept at those things.
Tracks: I feel all tracks should be considered, doesn't matter a bit if they're "JGTC" type tracks..it's not real life. Many, many tracks are great in reverse and should be utilized...Deep Forest, Midfield, Trail Mountain, blah, blah, blah.

Partners: I do not want my partner picked for me...period!!! This season my assigned partner dropped out of sight without even a PM saying "I'm sorry" or "Screw you". We had a chance to maybe grab third place...no I want a partner that I can trust to fulfill their obligation, which brings me to this...

Amnesty: Yeah, give the banned drivers amnesty, there's alot of great drivers that are banned for life because they didn't fulfill their commitment. I say let them back for a second chance, if they do come back, I'll bet they will do whatever is required to prove their amnesty was deserved. Eats, I understand why you do this, I probably would too after putting in hours of time organizing and testing for the series, but we're eliminating a lot of quality drivers. Give them one more chance to show they can be counted on. If they screw up their second chance..flock-um...gone forever!!!

This is a great discussion guys, three pages in one day!! That alone speaks volumns about the passion alot of us have for this great series and the determination to make it even better. My prediction is S3 will be the best season ever and by the time S4 rolls around we'll have more drivers then we can handle. The JGTC series rules and is the best GTP has to offer and we should all be proud to be associated with it...I know I am!!!
 
As far as points and weights I'll leave that to those more adept at those things.
Tracks: I feel all tracks should be considered, doesn't matter a bit if they're "JGTC" type tracks..it's not real life. Many, many tracks are great in reverse and should be utilized...Deep Forest, Midfield, Trail Mountain, blah, blah, blah.

Partners: I do not want my partner picked for me...period!!! This season my assigned partner dropped out of sight without even a PM saying "I'm sorry" or "Screw you". We had a chance to maybe grab third place...no I want a partner that I can trust to fulfill their obligation, which brings me to this...

Amnesty: Yeah, give the banned drivers amnesty, there's alot of great drivers that are banned for life because they didn't fulfill their commitment. I say let them back for a second chance, if they do come back, I'll bet they will do whatever is required to prove their amnesty was deserved. Eats, I understand why you do this, I probably would too after putting in hours of time organizing and testing for the series, but we're eliminating a lot of quality drivers. Give them one more chance to show they can be counted on. If they screw up their second chance..flock-um...gone forever!!!

This is a great discussion guys, three pages in one day!! That alone speaks volumns about the passion alot of us have for this great series and the determination to make it even better. My prediction is S3 will be the best season ever and by the time S4 rolls around we'll have more drivers then we can handle. The JGTC series rules and is the best GTP has to offer and we should all be proud to be associated with it...I know I am!!!

Amen, Partner!

And as to the JGTC not racing at La Sarthe............look at the official website! They don't race outside of Japan in RL, so I guess that would limit the series to.....umm.....4 tracks!

This is not RL, this is a game!

If we would like our cars to race round Le Sarthe, Seattle, darkest Peru.............Why not if it is a good track, and a good race?

Neil
 
Question.

What do you guys would say if we replaced the 1 lapper qualification run by a little JGTC challenge (2-3 laps) like the pre-season ones from last season???

So you run your season with the same car each week but you've got an "on the side" twist with the challenges. The points gained with the challenges portion are compiled in a little standings by it's own.

So the people done with their sprint race early in the week will always have more JGTC fun available.


Thoughts???
 
Also one driver in the JGTC could be responsible to set up those challenges and make the car/track combos.

Anyone interested in such a job?
 
i dont like the idea of the on the side twist i meanif you wanted to make that optional thats fine but dont make it mandatory

Uh reread again my son, the plan are to make those on side JGTC fun...like in playing them to have fun...like in doesn't count in the season...like in you run them if you feel like it...like in...oh well
 
SuperGT run in Maylasia. What I'm saying doesn't really matter anyway. I was just suggesting a schedule, based on yours I'd be happier with. Circuit de la Sarthe in my opinion is for Sports Prototypes and PROPER GT's. Not these radically tuned racers. Compare a GT500 car to a LM GT1 car and you'll know what I mean. JGTC/SuperGT cars are more comparable with DTM's than, what are in my opinion, "proper" GT cars. Not to take anything away from JGTC. The cars are incredibly fast, fun to drive and seem to attract both fans and racers.

m.piedgros

EDIT: I think that we should submit our fastest qualifying lap to determine grid position. How about, one has to run their qualifying lap on the same compound they start the race on?
 
I know I was one of the slackers but I had an idea on the Weight Penalty system if anyone will listen. It seems to me that adding 3 or 4 or 5% weight to a car doesnt make too much of a difference to the times people are able to do in any given car, it might be better if the top 1, 2 or 3 drivers were also given a power penalty of some sort. Something like if you finish 3rd you get +1% Weight, 2nd +2% weight and 1st +2% Weight -1% power, or something, and it would work in reverse for the slower guys, eg last gets -2% weight +1% power, 2nd to last -2% weight and 3rd to last -1% weight.
 
NOT TRUE! Get real, 5% is a KILLER! It's not a penalty, it's a friggin' anchor! This is to HELP equalize things, not irreparably damage a contender's chances... Talk about racer welfare! Also, we're not trying to send the race winner directly to last place on the merit of thier win, just slowly equalize the rest of the field to make it a bit more level.

With unlimited car choice, we shouldn't need to equalize performace due to car differences as much as this year. Also, we shouldn't TRY to rig it so that everyone finishes with the same point total.

There are faster guys, and slower guys. We should NEVER have it such that a "slower guy" ends up winning the championship because the faster guy has been overly burdened and handicapped.

I actually thought this years' weight penalty system worked well. If we let it stand, I'd be okay with it.

As for sandbagging, I've never done it, but also I don't see a problem with it either. Just because you exploit the rules, it doesn't make it bad. If you can live with the reduced point total for a particular race, then so be it. It's strategy. Unlike sandbagging in a real race where you can size up your opponents and finish in a known position, here you don't know how fast to go so you could end up finishing lower than you wanted, or still manage to win because (though unlikely) everyone didn't go 100%. I'd've been mad if Francisco sandbagged the last race and let me win, meaining that I'd be at -3% power and 10% weight, but as a result he would have been even further back in the championship as a result. Part of the big picture game.

What I want is a series where there is a SLIGHT playing field leveling by penalty weight/air restrictor element, but the outright best driver is going to clearly win the championship if he or she drives with no mistakes.

-SHig
 
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