JGTC S4 Discussion/Ideas Thread

Well it was just an idea, take it easy. The penalty would be for ALL drivers not just 1 single driver, the point of a penalty system is to allow the slower drivers to be closer to the faster drivers, by slowing down the faster drivers and speeding up the slower drivers, judgeing by your performances in the JGTC series, the weight penalty you have doesnt seem to be doing your results much harm at all, if you can still beat the pants off a slower driver even with the weight penalties then whats the point of having the penalties in the first place?
 
I think the air restrictor penalties were already in place. Weren't they? Or was that a misread on my part?

m.piedgros
 
I think the air restrictor penalties were already in place. Weren't they? Or was that a misread on my part?

m.piedgros

right, everytime you win, you get -1% HP + whatever weight gain. Last's 3 races. You win again under restriction, you'll go down to -2% and the 3 race penalty resets it self. 3 races under -2% HP .....and so on.

no chance to win 2 in a row, if so, you better have proof of it !!!
 
Well it was just an idea, take it easy. The penalty would be for ALL drivers not just 1 single driver, the point of a penalty system is to allow the slower drivers to be closer to the faster drivers, by slowing down the faster drivers and speeding up the slower drivers, judgeing by your performances in the JGTC series, the weight penalty you have doesnt seem to be doing your results much harm at all, if you can still beat the pants off a slower driver even with the weight penalties then whats the point of having the penalties in the first place?

Sorry, no personal attack intended...

It's just that somehow this whole penalty system has seemed to go beyond speeding up the slower drivers and more like "let's let the slower drivers beat the faster drivers".

The current 3 race power penalty system is something I'd change. I agree that you should lose power for winning, but to win again within 3 races should only tack on a 1% additional loss for three further, allowing the original 1% to be regained after 3 races. As written, if someone wins round 1, then round 4, then round 7, they'd be down 3% for rounds 5, 6, and 7. I think the air penalty for the race 1 win should roll off for round 5 regardless of the win in round 4. Sure, if he wins rounds 1, 2, and 3, then they should be down 3% for round 4, but then only down 2% for round 5 (assuming they don't win round 4) and so on...

I can't say that the weight penalty systems hasn't hurt me. Quite the opposite. I can't possibly qualify on pole bloated and underpowered, so while I still get a point because of lack of participation, 3 points are out of reach because it's just not possible to hotlap quickly hobbled. I've only managed to keep ahead in the points due to what I feel has been consistent driving and smart pit strategy. I know some guys could have taken a LOT of points away from me but haven't because they may feel more comforatble running softer tires and more stints, but on some tracks, it's clearly slower to run that way.

I guess the weight and power penalties are there to keep me from beating the shirts and socks off of the slower drivers, no? :^) All in fun...

Anyway, if it were my series, this is what I'd do.

1: Allow free choice of car and teammate.
-- Removes car inequality from the equation. NO CHANGING though, since this would allow picking cars for tracks

2: Allow for ONE guest driver race per season so you can take a vacation, be off on business, be lazy, whatever. Also, I wouldn't mind ONE DROP in the season, however how this can coexist with the weight penalty I don't know. Problem is you could throw a race, drop weight, gain the advantage from that then not have to live with the paltry point total, so this probably isn't realistic UNLESS you can call your drop AT THAT TIME so your weight does not change. Probably just make things too complicated.

3: Sprint race on RM tires and no wear for qualifying, half of normal race points. No penalties in place, and margin of advantage over field subtracted from main race time. No flying lap qualy.
-- This provision allows the drivers who amp up on weight and lose power early to stay in the running by getting SOME points from qualifying even though they're saddled with penalties. Also, the time adjustment models actual real world track position advantage gained in qualifying. Finally, with a 15 minute race with no pits, the fastest to slowest margin may be 15 seconds which should allow the faster, though penalized car, to still have a chance to finish decently.

3a: If it is decided that we keep flying lap RSS qualy, then I'd still like to see it at stock weight and perhaps calculate some sort of "track position advantage" for the race.
ONLY HAVE ONE OR THE OTHER TYPE OF QUALIFYING THOUGH. WE ALL ONLY HAVE SO MUCH TIME.

4: Race durations of about 40 minutes for GT300. Also, have some sort of enduro race, preferably at La Sarthe, with a 1 hour plus duration on mild tire wear.

5: RH/RM/RS tires only again.

6: No twists or gimmicks or side challenges. If you want variety, go play in WRS. Let's RACE.

7: Championships will consist of individual and team as is currently the case. Perhaps a "Rookie" class for all new JGTC drivers?

8: Penalty weight... Here's where I'm not decided yet... Everyone starts at zero. Otherwise, those who would be advantaged by losing weight for finishing poorly in the first few races get screwed. I do like the idea of only the podium finishers getting weight. I think 5/3/1 is fair. From there, determine zero change or amount lost based on entrants, biasing towards weight loss? So 5/3/1/0/-1/-2/-3/-4/-5 or 5/3/1/-3/-4/-5 etc...

9: Air restrictor penalty: 1% loss of power to be added to current power for the subsequent 3 races - PERIOD. If you win again within those three races, you gain another 1%, but the original 1% rolls off after 3 races run with the restriction. It's too Draconian a penalty in my view to continue a past penalty beyond its original expiration because of another win.

10: Anywhere between 12 and 14 races probably... Shorter season could help keep people involved in the series overall since opportunities to join and compete for the championship would come around more often. The two week format hurts this aspect, but I can't see a way around it since I don't have time to qual, test, and race in one week.

11: Prompt posting of results and dedication to continuity. Backup administrator and all admins being held to providing submissions and replays as well for the sake of checks and balances. Lapses from admins result in similar time penalties received from late/no submissions etc.

Well, that's it for now.

I should be driving...

:)

-SHig
 
Oh, one more thing:

Could you all please explain how the current season and penalty system "screwed" you? The "stacked" air restrictor penalty hurt both fasj and myself equally so it's not really a factor in our championship battle, but it could've been. Otherwise, it SEEMS to be working okay...

Thanks,

-SHig
 
Also one driver in the JGTC could be responsible to set up those challenges and make the car/track combos.

Anyone interested in such a job?

Don't think it's nescessary to do this Eats, as SHig says, there is enough variety in the WRS to take care of that.

However if it is decided that it will be done, then I would do it gladly:) !

Neil
 
Awesome, it's great to see everyone chiming in with so many ideas! Sorry I've been a bit quiet but I'm on a plane again this week so things have been hectic. Same reason I was unable to qualify this round (sorry Eats!) :(

After reading all the posts thus far, here are my thoughts:
1. Cars Settings: When equalizing the car roster before the start of the season, power increases are allocated to achieve this. Let's try to limit the power increases to as little as possible (in simple terms, whatever is needed to compete with the fastest car) to assist in actually *gasp* making the AI more than just moving traffic cones. Even at +10 they'll never be much of a challenge for long, but in S1 it often took several laps to overtake the field; this makes the race more interesting and also inserts more variables into the final race times (some drivers are better than others at overtaking cleanly). In S2, where the power increases were larger, if I wasn't in 1st at the end of L1 it was rare.

2. Car Selection: Agree with the ability for multiple drivers to use the same car, though on the flip side it would be a bit dull if there are only 3 different cars in the field...the price of flexibility I suppose. In S2 I was unfortunate enough to get the last pick in GT500 and was stuck with a car that wasn't well-suited to my driving style.

3. Team Selection: I agree that people should be allowed to pick their own teammates. In RL racing it's quite possible to have a team with 2 strong drivers, and if the weight penalty system is well designed this shouldn't be a serious problem. I would try to discourage 2 strong drivers seeking each other out for no reasons other than to be a strong team (i.e. they're not friends or anything), but I guess this is impossible to police.

4. Qualy/Sprint Race: The sprint race is a nice idea (no more than 10-15 minutes, mild-to-no tire wear, no pits allowed), although I also like shooting for a hotlap as this serves as great testing time...particularly useful for those of us who don't have much time for dedicated testing. I'd be happy with either approach, but please not both. I agree we should focus on 1 event per week.

5. Time Adjustment: I like the idea of doing something to represent the qualy/sprint race outcome on race day. However I don't think using the splits from the qualy/sprint race results will work. In RL racing, the only advantage you gain by out-qualifying someone is grid position, which translates into a small margin of time at the start of the race. So, my suggestion would be this: 2nd place in qualy adds 1 sec to their race time (or the race admin does), 3rd place adds 1+1.5 secs (2.5 secs), 4th adds 1+1.5+2 secs (4.5 secs), 5th adds 1+1.5+2+2.5 secs (7 secs), and so on. The reason for the increasing time curve is to simulate "cleaner air" at the front of the grid vs. traffic and bottlenecking near the back, as is typical of a RL race. The pole-sitter gains an extra half-second over 2nd on the grid. This is an over-simplification of the real world of course, but it limits the advantage to something more realistic while still providing SOME extra benefit from a good grid position.

6. Race Time: Shorter races would be okay, but nothing less than 40 minutes. Part of the skill of racing vs. qualy is the ability to sustain pace over time. Often we see people who are great at qualy and not so fast on race day, and vice versa. This is the nature of racing IMO.

7. Points: I understand that it's annoying for part-time drivers who rarely compete to steal points from those of us who are posting every week. However, I don't agree with having a separate championship. As a "part-timer" who has missed only 1 race in 3 seasons (I'm only a part-timer because I travel extensively and I need the option to miss qualy and races if I have no other choice) I want to compete for the real title, not the one that would be a cakewalk for me to win if the rest of the field are DNS every other round. That's not a challenge for me. If we can relax the full-timer rules and it is possible for me to miss the occasional race as a full-timer and lose nothing but points, then that's fine. Of course this would mean that full-timers are not required to be in a team (I don't want someone relying on me while I'm traveling).

8. "Challenges": I agree with the consensus, this will take focus away from administering the race series and doesn't really belong here. The WRS is the place for that.

9. Reverse Tracks: I'm also not a huge fan of reverse tracks, unless they're in the "original circuit" category. Real-world tracks are very carefully and specifically designed to be run in one direction. Reversing them tends to ruin the flow. GT4-designed circuits are usually built with reversal in mind. So for example, Seattle (Reverse) 👍 Motegi (Reverse) 👎

10. Replays and Sandbagging: When discussing things like enforcing no sandbagging, don't forget that it is not an entry requirement in JGTC to have a replay device. Do not make it one. I have a MAXDrive which doesn't work, and I'm not particularly interested in buying another one. JGTC has and always should emphasize honor and honesty, and I don't think it's ever been a problem in the past. We have honest drivers here, and Eats always seems able to catch the suspicious looking times and query them. Oh, and as for the sandbagging discussion, don't penalize people for it. It's a despicable practice and one I would never partake in, but if a driver's strategic approach includes it, let them. It's a tricky game to play over a whole season and one I doubt most drivers would risk trying, even if they didn't have a problem with the idea from a competitive point of view.

11. Information Sharing: I agree that replays that are submitted for interest's sake should be made available to the field. This promotes learning. I also agree that pit strategy should be shared (not just number of pits).

That's all I have for now, more to follow I'm sure as this develops. Keep up the enthusiasm guys! 👍
 
how bout part timers get thier own championship? like have a class for them so that only they can affect eachother and just let them figure in like we do at my karting track(if someone doesnt use the spec tires in a race that counts twords 2 champioships one spec tire and one not then you get points for the non spec one only)

so what we do is say a part timer wins the race and a regular finishes second the regualar gets 1st place points in the regular driver chamionship and the part timer gets 1st place points in the part time championship

same thing with the weight penalties

make it so everyone can use which ever car they want to an extent like 2-4 of each car and let it go on a first come first serve basis

just my $.02 on everything
 
racefan88501
how bout part timers get thier own championship?
That's exactly what I was contesting in point 7 of my post. If I can be a full-timer with no penalty for missing a qualy/race (other than not gaining any points), and I don't have to be in a team as a full-timer, then fine. Otherwise it would be very boring for me to compete with a field of drivers who are only racing half the time. The championship win would be an empty one.

Besides, that's basically like running 2 series in 1. I'm not sure there's much point in that, you may as well separate the entire thing or just disallow part-timers.
 
First of all, I don't think I'll have the time to play in S3 regardless, but here are some ideas to further better this series that I do wish I had the time to participate in. I definitely want something along the lines of S2, although it seems we may need a different weight penalty system if people were to fall off and not participate. Even if everyone sticks in though, it can't hurt to mix it up a bit just in case.

To let people pick their teams, no problem but then again you have the unfair/unbalanced team problem coming up to the surface.
Wouldn't the weight penalty(if still used in some shape or form) take care of that?(as I read further, I see that Neil mentioned the same thing)

Neil, regarding a teammate's inability to race one race, maybe the teammate, if he has time, can do both sides of the race even? I'm not against a wholly new driver filling in, either.

Also, I wouldn't be against the limiting of the series to only GT500 cars, or the like, if need/popular demand be.

The limiting of races to 35-40 minutes would also allow full replays of the races, no?

Shig, one drop race sounds like a great idea to me. That would allow for either a crappy appearance, or just an inabilty to appear due to circumstances unaccounted for at the beginning of the season. That way it would also not discourage someone who ends up missing one due to whatever reason, thus making him want to stop participating because he's fallen back. (further reading shows the issues with weight penalty system... I don't know...)

Amen to Neil's proposed submission style as well.

I like using the same car for the whole series as well. It reduces the need to learn another car's driving style for another session.

FWIW, I know that I wouldn't be able to have a 7-8 lap clean race on the 'ring. I push myself too hard, and there are too many places where that can kick you in the arse on the 'ring.

I like Zeratul's idea of making the AI more involved. Having them more spread out by the time we actually want to pass them makes it easier to pass them as well.

I'm all for one event a week, and don't mind if it's a short 10-15 minute session, or a hot lap for qualifying, although I'm partial to a hotlap as it wouldn't take as long, IMO.
 
Sorry about the delay in getting into the fray, as it were. It's been a rough couple of days with my work schedule. Some points I'd like to address.

Teams... Eat's ... I lost my teammate before the first race. Had to wait until you chose to kick him out of the series before finding myself as a part-timer. Not your fault ! It was his choice not to run. But it caused my first time in this series to really suck !

JGTC, as I was introduced to it, was a TEAM event. One 500 and one 300 driver. Once my partner chose not to race, and we couldn't find another to fill his spot, my season was done.... period.

Yet, I chose to still drive. Life came and kicked me in the balls. Uprooted, and tossed about the country, trying to find a place to live again. Once done, I chose to drive. Flipping my no show partner the bird the whole time.

Never won a race, never got a podium. Never took a pole. Yet, I drove. I scored points. I tried. Never gave up.... Checked daily to find out the number of laps, and other things.... yet, I drove.

Why ? ... the series. The duration of a race. Tire wear, pits. Chasing BTW-Neil- trying to figure out how the hell he got that many laps on his tires. Shaking my head at the times that people ran.

Either make it a team event, or not. If it's a team thing, then make it teams ! not an individual thing. You and I were screwed for the season. To what purpose ? Did you enjoy that ? I sure as hell didn't. Banning people for life ? Hell, I only got that about going back to Greece again.... don't ask, long story :(

While I liked the series, and yes, the hard core nuts that still are racing at the last race :), I sure didn't like being taken out of the Championship, read that as TEAM Championship, by something that was not my own actions or choice.

I do like what has been presented by BTW about the tracks and choosing whom we race with. Do you think that the person you chose to be my partner this season would've chosen me of his own choice ? Hell no ! Don't you think that was part of his reason not to participate ? Hell yes ! And all it did was treat me like a little girl and bend me over the couch ! I would've been better off being the part-timer that I asked for in the beginning, before you asked me to become a part of team. I take my commitments seriously. I gave you my word, and have busted my ass in keeping it.

Qual on tires you run, multi lapper, strong tire wear, push too hard, too bad

Choices of car, not just what was left to choose from

I'm too slow to have the weight thing mean anything, let the fast guys figure it out

More tracks, see Neils' list

Move the AI's tire selection around, varies the pit thinking, lapping

All races at +10, bring a hankie otherwise

Forced pits.... period, yes, city tracks as well... check RL racing

No less than 40 min races, no more than 1.5 hrs... variety spice of life :)


J.R.
 
Hi eats!
I am a little bit late,as my teammate(in DTM),oldphart.
This is the attitude what I really like.Never mind how badly the things going on,just s**t on and stand proud on your feet.Totally agreed what he said.👍
For me this serie IS very important.It is exactly so important that I sent my result to the last round of S2 from my mobile from Slovakia.It costs me about 8 bucks which is a little bit expensive for an SMS but I HAD to send it.
I am "new" here,this is my first season in JGTC and I hope it won't be the last.
I understand your point of view.Make sense to do your job for only these few submitters?The answer is YES,because we who are here NOW,we love to race here.I know that sometimes it is not so easy to do all you have to do:job,school or anything else...:indiff: For us and for making your promise become reality I say it is worth it's price.
About the other stuff:I say there are too much races.8 races is ideal I think.It is not too short and not too long,people stay interested for the duration of the serie.
And maybe need some upgrade to the weight penalty system too.
Everything else is O.K.👍
 
I'll repeat my request:

What about the weight penalty system are people not satisfied with? Please go into painful detail because sometimes I'm slow to understand... :^) Examples with numbers help.

Does anybody care to comment on my idea regarding weight penalty? Power penalty?

I'll reiterate:

"
8: Penalty weight... Here's where I'm not decided yet... Everyone starts at zero. Otherwise, those who would be advantaged by losing weight for finishing poorly in the first few races get screwed. I do like the idea of only the podium finishers getting weight. I think 5/3/1 is fair. From there, determine zero change or amount lost based on entrants, biasing towards weight loss? So 5/3/1/0/-1/-2/-3/-4/-5 or 5/3/1/-3/-4/-5 etc...

9: Air restrictor penalty: 1% loss of power to be added to current power for the subsequent 3 races - PERIOD. If you win again within those three races, you gain another 1%, but the original 1% rolls off after 3 races run with the restriction. It's too Draconian a penalty in my view to continue a past penalty beyond its original expiration because of another win.
"
-SHig
 
Ok SHiggy, keep the pantyhose on! :lol:
I have been thinking further on what I proposed and have thought up this variant including some of your ideas.

As far as the weight/power penalty system is concerned.........

I still think that the system works but needs to be tweaked to make it a little fairer, and more realistic.

Only adding weight to the podium finishers is a realistic start. No gain/loss for the next few, then minor weight loss for the tail enders.
ie
1st = +3
2nd= +2
3rd = +1
4th = 0
5th = 0
6th = 0
7th = 0
8th = -1
9th & below = -3

What this means is the the faster guys get a slight increase in weight, but the mid-packers who are fighting for the minor points stay where they are, slower drivers lose weight , again in a minor way.
Do this without the restrictor penalties being used, as this will mask the real goal of the weight pen system, which is to equalise out the car/driver combination.

Run this system for 6 'race-weeks' and by then, hopefully the drivers who are fast/slow will be equalised out to all being pretty much the same.
But if a driver wins two races on the bounce after round 6, an additional weight pen should be awarded.( at +1%)

Then, at 'week' 7, introduce the air-restrictor penalty system! And suspend the weight system(except for back-to-back wins)

This should as SHig (I think :rolleyes: :) ) stated, be on a sliding scale.
ie
#1 wins round 7 and gets -1% power for 3 races
#2 wins round 8 and gets -1% for 3 races
#1 then wins round 9, and so gets an additional -1% for 3 races
#3 then wins round 10, gets -1% but #1 gets his 1% back from round 7 and is now on -1% instead of -2%.

Basically, if you win, then you get -1% for 3 rounds, win again in 3 races you get the additional -1%, but then the 1% pen comes off after the 3 round period instead of the round counter being reset by the second win!

That way even if a driver wins 3 rounds on the bounce, he will only reach a max power-pen of -3%. And that then is reduced as the 3 race periods expire incrementally, but he will have recieved 2 extra weight pens for 3 back-to-back wins so he should now be more equalised with the rest of the pack.

A little complicated, but definately fair! I think.

The way I see it, is that the weight adjustment is more a fine tuning of the balance of the pack, where as the Hp reduction system is closer to an actual penalty system.

See my performance as example.
I won R8, and got a weight pen + Hp pen, but still managed to get another win in R10, so another Hp pen +more weight. This week I am nowhere.
It's not really the weight that is killing me, because I have been this heavy earlier in the season and still managed to perform mid/high-pack, this week however with -2% Hp I just can't keep up with Drew (no offence buddy) who I nomally finish ahead of (even if it is only by 0.012:) )

The Hp pen is more effective than the weight adjustments, plain and simple.

I suppose we could do -2% Hp for a win and -1% for second, but that may be harsher than it needs to be.

Neil
 
Penalty weight:

Your ideas are going the wrong way ! The big problem this season was the dropout rate. Guy's like my self had no chance of loosing weight due to that.
I gained +5 in the beginning and never had a chance to loose it. This was my first season and I'm not sure if I participate in S3. RL is a big factor here. I committed to this series and stayed till the end. I take my commitments seriously as well, like Oldphart stated. Sometimes I got a race together on Sunday just before deadline. Half of the season I really couldn't find the time and I missed round 6. Don't even wanna talk about tire testing/pit strategy or run a race more than once.
As I mentioned before, the penalty system needs to be changed at the end not at the top. Gaining weight is easy but loosing it....it's a b**h !
Note: I'm talking about how S2 went. Dropout rate screwed the system.
If the people stick to the series and we can run it as it was supposed to be, I wouldn't touch the pen system.
 
Neil, you're right about my views on the power penalty situation. I'm glad I have some agreement on that issue. The 1% hit should be 3 races period, rolling off after 3, and any wins in the meantime stack on and roll off similarly. Like you mention, you max out (though unlikely) at -3% and stay there until you stop winning...

OTOH, I'm with IcemanGER on the weight penalty issue. If you have a fixed system like you're proposing, it only works if you always have at least 9 drivers, which is wishful thinking. I agree with him that adding weight is easy, and losing it is a bitch! Like at Thanksgiving/Christmas... I think the "perfect" weight system would have nobody at +10% or -10% for more than a week or so. If there were a way to go more than 10% +/- your system may work, but the average penalty weight of the field would continue to rise through the season, with a few people light and the majority heavy. In my case this season, I basically climbed the weigh ladder to +10% and pretty much camped there since round 5 or so. I dipped down a % or two for a round, and then back up again. I guess the fact that I'm still ahead (though by the skin of my teeth) in the points means that I've been able to overcome. I guess in the end, assuming equal cars, the weight penalty should never prevent the fastest guy from winning overall, right? It sure seems like it makes the faster guys have to work that much harder to stay ahead though...

I think that the sprint race qual at stock weight and power (or at least stock weight and perhaps at penalty power) with half race points should keep the fast guys at the top of the points, while allowing some of the folks with less time to devote fanatically to driving a chance at podium finishes or wins. I'd be totally cool with this. PLEASE let this happen... This would probably increase the "fun factor" for me.

-SHig
 
Shiggy, I think pretty much everyone is in agreement with you on the power penalty system should work.

Weight penalty, can't we keep the current setup, but change it to be more aggressive when/IF there are less people racing. What's it now? +5,+4,+3,+2,+1,+0,-1,-2,-3,-4,-5 or so? Then when less people race, something along the lines of +5,+3,+1,0,-1,-3,-5. I think something along these lines was discussed during S2?
 
I'll throw something into the mix again.

What about dropping the weight all together. While it's good to have an even field, you don't want to have the faster guys penalized so much, that they have no chance of winning.

With a proposed shorting of weight gap between first and last, it can encourage sandbagging. Taking the 5/4/1/0/1/3/5 as an example, the difference between 1st and 7th is only 7 point increments, the same as last year, but the weight difference between the two is +/- 10, where as before it was +/- 6. So if I was +10, it'd be so tempting to just throw it last, knowing I'd still wipe off -5, and get the 7th place points.

Maybe instead of a weight system change, we need a points system change. To make it closer. Maybe something like the V8 Supercar system where the winner gets 192 points and every place down drops 6 points from that, and you can also drop your worst round.
 
Guys (SHig,IcemanGER)

Let me make myself clear on this,

A weight penalty system is not/should not be designed to let a fast driver lose weight!
The whole point is to balance out the field and therefore give all the chance of a win.

What is the point of a penalty system that lets a fast driver lose weight rapidly by dropping a few places over a couple of races? NONE!
Does that driver suddenly become a slower driver because he has finished in 4th or 5th place a couple of times? NO!
He is still a fast driver, but he has/may have deliberately performed below his abilities to gain an unfair advantage over other drivers that have to work damn hard just to be competative!
Therefore it should be harder to lose weight than gain it!

This is the essense of a handicap system!
It is used in all forms of racing from horses to dogs, cars, bikes, planes, and anything that can be raced against others with 'similar' equipement.

If you are fast, you get weight added, if you are slow you don't!

In a field of say 10 racers.....

1 who is really fast, may end up with +7
2 who are quite fast, may end up with +5
4 who are mid-pack may end up with +1 - +3
2 who are slightly slower end up with -1 - 0
1 who is slowest may end up with -2

But on an average run they will ALL have more-or-less the same time!

That is the object, the purpose, the reason, for a weight penalty system. A handicap system by any other name!

This system does NOT allow for a 'sand-bagging' attitude. It means that if you want to win, you have to work for it!
Not slack off for a couple of rounds, get 4th or 5th in a shortened weight-pen system and lose weight without losing too many points, then put in two good races to get maximum points over the other driver's who are working their guts out just to get a podium normally.

There is no need to see a down-side.
To see that as a normally fast driver, you will be punished for being fast, is a short-sighted attitude.
Winning WITH the extra weight, will be even more the sweeter.....BECAUSE you have the exta weight.
Winning the championship, even though you have the extra weight, will be an even better experience, because you had to WORK for it!

Or maybe I am being an old-fashioned fool, who believes in the ethic of " What is the point of winning, if you haven't actualy put any effort into the fight?"

Also you must remember I am suggesting that the weight pen system is only active till the end of round 6 (for example) after that weights will not change and the power penalty system will kick in (and more seem to agree with myself and SHig on that subject than dis-agree)

Neil
 
@BTTW
That is "all" right what you wrote ! The penalty system is just fine as long as the scheduled drivers send in their time.

The only thing what isn't right, is the lack of drivers droping out during the season.

That's where it get's unfair IMO !!!

...and btw, I worked my ass of as well
 
@BTTW
That is "all" right what you wrote ! The penalty system is just fine as long as the scheduled drivers send in their time.

The only thing what isn't right, is the lack of drivers droping out during the season.

That's where it get's unfair IMO !!!

...and btw, I worked my ass of as well

Didn't say otherwise bud! (only generalising to make a point!)

As to lack of drivers, after round 6 it wouldn't matter, would it?

Even if the weight pen system did carry on after round 6, and the driver count dropped, why should 4th,5th,6th lose weight when 1st,2nd &3rd are gaining it anyway?

You would just be doubling the effect!

and THAT is unfair!

Neil
 
Neil, what would stop almost everyone from having +10 weight then, and not be able to gain more after a couple rounds?(possibly)
 
Casio!! Nice to see you chiming in on this one!

All good points so far. Interesting idea setting the weight and "locking" it down. I've been trying to find the penalty weight data on the Speed World Challenge series and see how that's affecting the racing. No luck. Does anyone have data on DTM or real Super GT series?

The sandbagging vs weight loss "plan" using real numbers is a vivid example of where it could go bad. I guess what that does is allow you to go light, win, get back to stock weight, win again. Still not convinced that it's a good (not ethical, but effective) way of winning an overall championship. Sure you'll set yourself up to win, but at the sake of consistency.

I don't think that doing away with the penalty weight completely is in the spirit of JGTC. It's part of what makes this series unique. I know it makes winning harder for those who pile on the weight quickly, and that sucks. But I also see the merits of ramping up the challenge, if slowly, to those with more time or skill to do better.

I sure wish that you (Casio), shockwave, and VT would've stuck around to see how we'd've ended up had we (including M3T, fasj, et al) all been in it at the end.

NEIL: Your point about losing weight is well taken. I'm completely on board with your argument. I guess the only thing that COULD go wrong is that the fast driver won't get slower, but if the penalty weight is added too quickly, it's possible that the advantage could tip and the slower driver COULD have a faster package. If it were to "lock" in as such, it'd be just as unbalanced as the opposite. Therefore we should always have minor adjustment, and you have addressed that in your power scheme in the second half of the season.

To be continued...
 
Neil, what would stop almost everyone from having +10 weight then, and not be able to gain more after a couple rounds?(possibly)

Very unlikely Kyle, possible, but unlikely!

Bare in mind that I am proposing only a +3 maximum weight gain per race for the winner. And only for the first 6 rounds would the weight pen system be in effect.

Anyway, my head hurts and it's 4 am, so i'm off to bed!

Night all

Neil
 
Okay, quick poll. FEEDBACK PLEASE!!

So, since there hasn't been discussion one way or the other on my qualifying idea, I'll put it out there one last time.

What would you all think of a 10 lap qualifying sprint race on RM tires, no wear, and +10 AI on RS tires? Drivers would always run on stock weight and stock (or penalty, still up for discussion) power. Half of normal points, no weight penalty assessed from the results.

(I'll retract the idea of track position advantage from qualifying times becaue it is confusing and unnecessary...)

PROS:
- Sounds fun
- Fast drivers get a chance to prove on a level playing field what they're capable of at every venue
- Overly burdened fast drivers still have the opportunity to score decent points over a race fortnight
- Allows lighter drivers to still win main races for higher # of points while rewarding faster drivers with a "feelgood biscuit" by podium'ing or winning sprints (even though winning is out of grasp in the main race)
- Doubles the number of "races" that can be won in a series

CONS:
- Makes it more difficult for slower drivers to win the championship outright
- Takes more time to qualify (maybe?)
- Not as gratifying to drivers who like the maximum attack mentality of the RSS hotlap competition

Anyone care to add to the above?
 
Pros: Sounds fun !

Cons: More time to qualify! Guy's who are already short with time may drop out the series even faster.

Qualifying is just fine the way it is right now, imo. Only problem I see, what I have mentioned before is, that part timers can take valuable points away from full timers.

Part timer should be scrached from the sheet, periot.
Have a rule, like you(SHig I think) mentioned, that a no show would't cause any problems. RL is sometimes a bitch, see Oldphart.

I really like the participation here......I'm tending more and more to run S3 !
 
www.world-challenge.com for more info, and GT pen. weight system.

Here is the TC:
R.E.W.A.R.D.S. System: Rewarding of Equalizing Weight Assigned to Reduce Driver Sensitivity, commonly referred to as “REWARDS Weight,” is a weight equalization system based on the addition and subtraction of ballast weight based on the finishing position of individual drivers in the previous race(s). The goal of the REWARDS System is to provide close on-track competition between a diverse variety of cars in the top third of the field. REWARDS System weight adjustments are in effect for the next race in which a driver competes in the same class. Weight adjustments (in pounds) are as follows:

Touring Car
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th
+30 +20 +10 +/- 0 -10 -20 -30

I hope it helps. I'm to def, dumb and blind to understand how it would. DTM I'm not sure if I have access to but I'll get you Super GT.

m.piedgros

EDIT:

And here it is.

Handicap Weight System (Special Adjustment of Performance)
Demotion of Performance:

Qualifying and fastest laps in races: In each category, a handicap weight of 10kg will be compulsorily allocated at the subsequent race to cars qualifying in the top 3 places, and setting top 3 fastest laps, in a given race.
Race: In each category, a handicap weight will be compulsorily allocated at the subsequent race to cars finishing in the top 3 places in the preceding race, according to the following scale:


Handicap Weight System
Race 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th or below
GT500 +50kg +30kg +20kg +10kg ±0kg –10kg –20kg
GT300 +30kg +20kg +10kg +5kg ±0kg –5kg –15kg
Qualifying 1st 2nd 3rd
Each Category +10kg +10kg +10kg
Fastest lap in Race 1st 2nd 3rd
Each Category +10kg +10kg +10kg
Maximum weight loaded:

According to the above handicap weight the maximum weight to be loaded on cars will be 120kg for GT500 and 100kg for GT300 cars. Any excessive handicap weight above this shall be exempt from loading, but shall be accumulated numerically, and reduction will not be applied to the actual weight on the car, but to this numerical accumulation. Handicap weights as mentioned above will not be accumulated if the model of the car is changed or if team and drivers are changed simultaneously.


Weight reduction amounts are as follows:

If a car with a weight handicap finishes 6th in a race, a weight reduction of 10kg for GT500 class machines and 5kg for GT300 class machines will be made for the next race. If a weight handicapped car finishes 7th or lower, or is not able to participate in the race, a weight reduction of 20kg for GT500 class machines and 15kg for GT300 class machines will be made for the next race.


Position of handicap weight:

The weight of the installation device used to load the weight will be included within the total handicap weight. Handicap weights must be made from lead plates. Plates up to 50kg must be attached to the passenger's seat attachment. Weights over the 50kg level can be attached to any location within the car without restriction. All cars with weight handicaps imposed must attach weight handicap sign stickers where designated.


Promotion of Performance:

In accordance to the results of the preceding race, cars may broaden the diameter of their air restrictors when entering the succeeding event, restricted to the criteria mentioned below. This measure however, shall not be applied to "a car specially approved by the GTA." Special adjustment of performance, equivalent to this measure, shall be applied instead. In addition, adjustment will not be made on cars which have been given a weight handicap.



Criteria:

A. Cars slower than the standard time determined by adding 1 second to the average best lap time of the top 6 cars of each category in the qualifying practice. However, in races adopting a Super Lap, the criteria will be based on the times from the first qualifying session: 1 point.


B. Cars slower than the standard time determined by adding 0.5 seconds to the average of the top 6 best lap times of the race: 1 point.


C. Cars ranked in 7th position or below in the Championship standings in each category at the end of each race: 1 point.




According to criteria A to C above, any car whose accumulated points totals 3 may change their air restrictor diameter without having to change the minimum weight of the car. In the subsequent event, the car is permitted to run with the air restrictor diameter of a car with a 50kg weight handicap increase in the same engine division.
However, this measure shall be limited to use of the air restrictor diameter at a minimum weight increase of 100kg in the same engine division.
In the case where a car which has already applied the Promotion of Performance measure and meets 2 of the criteria, it is allowed to continue to apply until the car meets criteria A. In the case where the car has gained 2 levels of the Promotion of Performance measure, the car must revert back to the condition for cars with the 50kg increase.


*In the case where a car, which is applied a handicap weight becomes the object of the Promotion of Performance measure, the measure is not applied. However, the handicap weights will be reduced by 10kg from its cumulative total weights up to 2 of the criteria.
*If car model, engine model or engine displacement volume of a car to which the measures in these provisions have already been applied are changed, they will be cancelled.


Hope it helps!

EDIT 2: Shig, I really like the idea. I'd support it 100%.
 
Very unlikely Kyle, possible, but unlikely!

Bare in mind that I am proposing only a +3 maximum weight gain per race for the winner. And only for the first 6 rounds would the weight pen system be in effect.

Anyway, my head hurts and it's 4 am, so i'm off to bed!

Night all

Neil
4am! Bad you! Tsk tsk. Lol, anyway, I see, yes, a +3 maximum gain per race makes more sense. I'm not sure about cutting it off after 6 races though, as that may frustrate people who may feel they have gotten lucky for the first 6 races because of whatever, and then stuck unlucky for the rest of the series. But, who knows. If everyone agrees to it, that's just how it is and we all accept that possibility.

Shig, I'm not so sure I'd prefer doing a race, regardless of length, for qualifying. I prefer the hot lap over that, to tell you the truth. But then
as Iceman says, there's the issue of part timers hopping in to "steal" points. About that, I'm not sure what to propose exactly...
 
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