Just how much does GT5(P) actually simulate?

[Famine]

What do you call illegal? Go to 405 in LA, everybody there driving 85. If you see somebody doing 65 at left line it will be 75 years old or chinese.

This is unwritten rule, police doesn't want highways jammed (especially 405, which is also known as "4 or 5 miles per hour") and issues tickets only for some certain speed, which is not speed limit.

Fantastic. Is the speed you're talking about in excess of the speed limit? If so, it's illegal. The AUP says you should not discuss illegal activities.

 

[Biggamehit]

Shocked how accurate it was, or in shock due to some unrealistic feel to it?

How accurate it is. I'm not one to get in the debate with sim games... but it happens. All I do is invite my racing buddies over and let them play it and I just watch for the smile right away lol.

 

[RedBaron]

Fantastic. Is the speed you're talking about in excess of the speed limit? If so, it's illegal. The AUP says you should not discuss illegal activities.

It sounds like you are going to make police state of gtplanet. I smell big brother...

BTW, I drive 160 km/h+ everyday on windy roads.

 

[Biggamehit]

Eval!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[amar212]

BTW, I drive 160 km/h+ everyday on windy roads.

Great for you and everybody you evenually kill.

 

[serversurfer]

No, [fear] wasn't an issue …

Actually, he specifically said that was the problem. He couldn't push the car to the limit because he couldn't stop thinking about what might go wrong. ("What if I hit the wall at this speed?" "What if my wheel falls off?")

Edit: I don't know how the car was set up in the game. He ran a 1:21 in-game, and I think his best time on track was like 1:40, but he specifically said he knew he wasn't going as fast as possible IRL.

 

[FoolKiller]

What do you call illegal?

Breaking the law, in this case driving at speeds in excess of the posted legal speed limit.

Go to 405 in LA, everybody there driving 85.

If everyone in LA were shooting each other does that suddenly make it legal?

All I am trying to do is help keep you out of trouble on this site. Trying to redefine the rules is a sure way to shorten your stay.

It sounds like you are going to make police state of gtplanet. I smell big brother...

I didn't know enforcing the rules everyone agreed to when they signed up was making it a police state, especially when this is a rule put in place to prevent GTP from facing outside legal issues.

 

[Famine]

It sounds like you are going to make police state of gtplanet. I smell big brother...

BTW, I drive 160 km/h+ everyday on windy roads.

Apparently you don't quite get it.

I didn't know enforcing the rules everyone agreed to when they signed up was making it a police state, especially when this is a rule put in place to prevent GTP from facing outside legal issues.

Whereas FoolKiller does.

 

[bullie77]

Great for you and everybody you evenually kill.

... and what if he kills someone driving at 120 km/h? Is that acceptable because is under the speed limit? Or what if he's in Germany on a non-speed limited autobahn driving at 220km/h? Does he gonna get kicked out of the forum because he's going against the law in the US while he's in Germany?...

Is it acceptable to be bragging about driving excessively above the legal driving limits? No, its stupid. But honestly it feels as stupid as that, to threat someone about the "unacceptable discuss of illegal actitvities" in this forum because of it.

Is it dangerous to drive at 170km/h in a freeway? It'll depends on a bunch of factors. And because of those same factors it'll can be even more dangerous to drive at 70km/h under certain circumstances than at 170km/h sometimes.

 

[Famine]

... and what if he kills someone driving at 120 km/h? Is that acceptable because is under the speed limit? Or what if he's in Germany on a non-speed limited autobahn driving at 220km/h? Does he gonna get kicked out of the forum because he's going against the law in the US while he's in Germany?...

Is it acceptable to be bragging about driving excessively above the legal driving limits? No, its stupid. But honestly it feels as stupid as that, to threat someone about the "unacceptable discuss of illegal actitvities" in this forum because of it.

...

Have you read the AUP at all? I mean, I'll help you out here:

You will not use these forums to violate any laws nor to discuss illegal activities.

Is breaking a posted speed limit an illegal activity? Yes it is. Does the AUP say you will not use these forums to discuss illegal activities? Yes it does. Is talking about breaking a posted speed limit thus forbidden by the AUP? Yes it is.

No-one was threatened. No-one said anything about relative speed limits and their merits and lack thereof in different states. The information was passed on in the spirit of helpfulness that talking about breaking the speed limit is forbidden by the AUP.


This is where this particular discussion ends in this thread. If you want to continue discussing aspects of the AUP, please bring it up in the Site Feedback forum.

 

[serversurfer]

otago confuses me. He claims to be from New Zealand, yet apparently spends a lot of time driving in Los Angeles, and while the predominant language in both countries is English, he seems to have a very tenuous grasp of it. And when someone relays their personal experiences of how time spent in GT translates very well to the track (or vice versa), he confidently tells them they're wrong and it doesn't translate at all, and he knows this because he drives on the highway in LA.

 

[bullie77]

...

Have you read the AUP at all? I mean, I'll help you out here:



Is breaking a posted speed limit an illegal activity? Yes it is. Does the AUP say you will not use these forums to discuss illegal activities? Yes it does. Is talking about breaking a posted speed limit thus forbidden by the AUP? Yes it is.

No-one was threatened. No-one said anything about relative speed limits and their merits and lack thereof in different states. The information was passed on in the spirit of helpfulness that talking about breaking the speed limit is forbidden by the AUP.


This is where this particular discussion ends in this thread.

I'll put it differently...

Is it forbidden (or against the forum rules) to talk about driving at 220km/h on a public freeway if I did it in Portugal, where the speed limit is 120km/h, but it would be acceptable to talk about the exact same thing in here if it was done on a public freeway in Germany that would not have speed limit. Is that it?

Another example:

If I'm an american 16 year-old kid it ok for me to talk here about my new 9mm Glock automatic gun because its legal to own it, but, if I'm portuguese, where its illegal to own such a weapon, I'm not allowed to talk about it.

 

[Famine]

otago is currently based in New Zealand (the name is a giveaway) and has spent some time in San Diego. I cannot reveal any further information about him because, although I know it, it is his personal information to reveal as he wishes (something else covered in the AUP). However, I can say that English is not his first language.

I'll put it differently...

Is it forbidden (or against the forum rules) to talk about driving at 220km/h on a public freeway if I did it in Portugal, where the speed limit is 120km/h, but it would be acceptable to talk about the exact same thing in here if it was done on a public freeway in Germany that would not have speed limit. Is that it?

Another example:

If I'm an american 16 year-old kid it ok for me to talk here about my new 9mm Glock automatic gun because its legal to own it, but, if I'm portuguese, where its illegal to own such a weapon, I'm not allowed to talk about it.

You will not use these forums to violate any laws nor to discuss illegal activities.

It's also not necessarily legal for a 16 year old American to own an automatic weapon in every state.

 

[bullie77]

off-topic question, for personal curiosity: Are speed limits all the same around the US, or are there differences between states. How significant are those (if any)?

 

[Biggamehit]

they vary depending on location.. urban, county, school, hospital, HOV lane etc...

now I read someones post which said regular traffic flows at 85mph ( even though thats is not posted probably) in their town.. well you must flow with traffic... if you don't you are now the hazard.....

 

[bullie77]

It's also not necessarily legal for a 16 year old American to own an automatic weapon in every state.

Whatever... if I'm that kid from a state where its legal to own it I'm allowed to talk about, otherwise I'm not.

It's my opinion but raising the rules to otago about the matter that was being discussed, on the context it was being discussed, it's (again in my opinion) exagerated. I'm not against the rule itself and I perfectly understand it BUT, as all rules, when they're applied literally they'll fail the purpose for what they were initially wrote for. Commom-sense and good judgement are essential when applying them.

 

[bullie77]

they vary depending on location.. urban, county, school, hospital, HOV lane etc...

I know that. I mean is the freeway speed limit the same for the 50 states or it varies from state to state.

 

[Famine]

Whatever... if I'm that kid from a state where its legal to own it I'm allowed to talk about, otherwise I'm not.

It's my opinion but raising the rules to otago about the matter that was being discussed, on the context it was being discussed, it's (again in my opinion) exagerated. I'm not against the rule itself and I perfectly understand it BUT, as all rules, when they're applied literally they'll fail the purpose for what they were initially wrote for. Commom-sense and good judgement are essential when applying them.

And?

No-one has been threatened with anything. Foolkiller merely reminded him of his obligation to abide by the rules and that he's already been made aware of this one in particular elsewhere on the site.

 

[djanikowski]

I know that. I mean is the freeway speed limit the same for the 50 states or it varies from state to state.

It varies form state to state, for example, I live close to the Minnesota/Wisconsin border and Interstate 90 has a speed limit of 65 in Wisconsin and a speed limit of 70 in Minnesota.

 

[serversurfer]

However, I can say that English is not his first language.

Ah, okay. That was the impression I had, but that seemed odd for a Kiwi living in LA (or a Californian living in New Zealand).

 

[BuzzOrHowl]

Has anyone noticed how effectively Otago has Hijacked this thread? Why are we discussing Otago's personal life, language skills, and driving habits?

I believe we WERE discussing "Just how much does GT5(P) actually simulate"... and on that point I'll reiterate my original point in a nutshell:

Enough to make a difference when you get in a real car and race it around a track.

'Nuff Said.

 

[The Dragon Rebo]

just look at this video. and marvel at those suspension. That's why i love gran turismo. such an awesome game with awesome physics

 

[Stonemonkey]

Something I've been wondering about with respect to physics, I've read in a few places people saying Forza physics are better than GT physics, often accompanied with because GT doesn't have damage as the reason. I have to agree that the results of collisions in the GT series has always sucked with cars bouncing off each other in odd ways which I think is down to the fact that there's no deformation and allowing cars to intersect each other would only lead to more problems like cars getting stuck together or other strange effects so the only solution is to have the strange looking bounces.
Now what about the actual driving physics, driving with no collisions occuring, who decides why one game is better than another and why? IMO the physics programming will be much like the graphics programmng (this applies to any game) where the coder or team have their own ideas about what is important and what concessions to make, after all there is only so much computational power available and nothing can be perfect so different programmers will see different aspects having different importance and will concentrate or fudge on those. Gamers will have opinions too on what they feel is important or not and will be infuenced towards one or the other from what decisions were made be the coding team when they were making the game.........

.....or maybe it's all bS and just down to people being fanboys.

 

[otago]

otago confuses me. He claims to be from New Zealand, yet apparently spends a lot of time driving in Los Angeles, and while the predominant language in both countries is English, he seems to have a very tenuous grasp of it.

I'm confused by so much attention to my person.

I just change countries faster than you apartments

 

[Devedander]

Now what about the actual driving physics, driving with no collisions occuring, who decides why one game is better than another and why?

I think most people look towards those who do the thing in real life and also plays a fair amount of games/sims to make this call. Insidesimracing is an example of a respected, experienced source for info on how well the games physics engines work.

Unlike how graphics look (which is highly subjective) with physics they are trying to replicate a real, measureable, comparable goal, so you can actually say how good a physics engine is by carefully comparing it to reality.

 

[The Jenius]

Wow, it amazes me how some guys on this forum such as otago think it's cool to break the speed limits and drive dangerously putting other people's life at risk... grow up already before you kill someone.

Obviously you (otago) have never driven a modern mid engined car such as an Elise because the lift off oversteer will see you spinning real easy, similar to that new PSP ad...

Last, I don't believe you (otago) have ever played GT4 with a DFPro and all the aids off, because it taught me a few things about driving on the edge, and probably saved me crashing the car I was about to buy after hitting a wet patch of road during my first test drive... I don't think my heart has ever beaten faster. (I bought the car anyway because it felt great and confirmed what playing Gran Turismo has taught me; mid engined cars suit my driving style.)

Back on topic, here is a list of parameters you could alter using the MKS program for GT3, most of these affected the performance of your car, so was obviously used in part of the calculation of the physics (some may have been calculated prior to real time, but they were still part of what was simulated):

[GT3CarData]
Region=US
BaseFile= 4
BaseName= GT40 Race Car
0=-2100615252 \Car Base Part 1
4=-817875727 /Car Base Part 2
8=-1131 \Color Part 1
12=-1 /Color Part 2
16=-2 \4 ?? Part 1
20=-1 /4 ?? Part 2
24=-907344916 \Brakes Part 1
28=265915218 /Brakes Part 2
32=-12514 \Brake Controllor Part 1
36=-1 /Brake Controllor Part 2
40=-907344916 \Chassis Part 1
44=341352274 /Chassis Part 2
48=1686067058 \Engine Part 1
52=-1596695059 /Engine Part 2
56=-1643198613 \Drivetrain & VCD Part 1
60=1721000207 /Drivetrain & VCD Part 1
64=-329779156 \Transmission Part 1
68=340152146 /Transmission Part 2
72=-907344916 \Suspension Part 1
76=97027410 /Suspension Part 2
80=-907344916 \LSD Part 1
84=172984658 /LSD Part 1
88=-907344924 \Front Tyres Part 1
92=148211538 /Front Tyres Part 2
96=-907344924 \Rear Tyres Part 1
100=46761810 /Raer Tyres Part 2
104=-2619186 \17 ?? Part 1
108=-1 /17 ?? Part 2
112=-1 \Weight Reduction Part 1
116=-1 /Weight Reduction Part 2
120=-907344916 \Body & DF Part 1
124=172594514 /Body & DF Part 2
128=-948979477 \Polish Part 1
132=691232804 /Polish Part 2
136=152590897 \Balance Part 1
140=1530813115 /Balance Part 2
144=-145245973 \Displacement part 1
148=691232822 /Displacement part 2
152=152545902 \Computer Part 1
156=457071291 /Computer Part
160=-933989651 \N\A Tune Part 1
164=404172409 /N\A Tune Part 2
168=-1214793495 \Turbo Part 1
172=691232802 /Turbo Part 2
176=-1 \Flywheel Part 1
180=-1 /Flywheel Part 2
184=-907344916 \Clutch Part 1
188=307795794 /Clutch Part 2
192=-1 \Shaft Part 1
196=-1 /Shaft Part 2
200=-907344916 \Muffler Part 1
204=147752274 /Muffler Part 2
208=598169207 \Intercooler Part 1
212=1801572653 /Intercooler Part 2
216=-12514 \??ASM?? Part 1
220=-1 /??ASM?? Part 2
224=-12514 \??TCS?? Part 1
228=-1 /??TCS?? Part 2
232=-1 \Wheels Part 1
236=-1 /Wheels Part 2
240=-5352 >R Gear
244=-5891 >1 Gear
248=-3817 >2 Gear
252=-2719 >3 Gear
256=-2041 >4 Gear
260=-1614 >5 Gear
264=-1201 >6 Gear
268=-1 >7 Gear
272=-2001 >Final Drive
276=-43 >Auto Gear
280=-1 >VCD
284=-2 \Front Brakes Part 1
288=-2 /Front Brakes Part 2
292=-186 >Front DF
296=-209 >Rear DF
300=-7 >Turbo 1
304=-41 >Turbo 2
308=-106 >Turbo 3
312=-1 >Turbo 4
316=-1 >Turbo 5
320=-1 >Turbo 6
324=-21 >Front Camber
328=-11 >Rear Camber
332=-36 >Front Ride Height
336=-36 >Rear Ride Height
340=-129 >Front Toe
344=-129 >Rear Toe
348=-109 >Front Springs
352=-126 >Rear Springs
356=-76 >??Front Grip??
360=-91 >??Rear Grip??
364=-8 >Front Bound
368=-8 >Front Bound
372=-8 >Front Rebound
376=-8 >Front Rebound
380=-8 >Rear Bound
384=-8 >Rear Bound
388=-8 >Rear Rebound
392=-8 >Rear Rebound
396=-8 >Front Stabilizer
400=-8 >Rear Stabilizer
404=-1 >Front LSD Init
408=-11 >Rear LSD Init
412=-1 >Front LSD Accel
416=-41 >Rear LSD Accel
420=-1 >Front LSD Decel
424=-21 >Rear LSD Decel
428=-2001 >Final Drive
432=-10 >TCS
436=-1 >84
440=-1 >85 > horse power modifier
444=-7 >ASM
448=-2 >??Driver A/MT??
452=-2 >??Driver ASM??
456=-2 >??Driver TCS??
460=-1 >90
464=-71345546 >Fittment 1
468=-610409861 >Fittment 2
472=-2640162 >Fittment 3
476=-1 >Travel Meter
480=-1211699450 >Oil 1
484=930364638 >Oil 2
488=-1034224036 >97 shine of car
492=-1 >98
496=-1 >99
500=-1 >100
504=-1 >101
508=-2 >102

To be honest what you say about the Elise is BS, no offense, I think the perception of MR in general being difficult is a little overrated. I actually own an Elise and don't just preach based on youtube videos and a "stock MR2 from 96" like others.

Everyone who owns one will tell you the Elise suffers from understeer as much as oversteer. This is because Lotus intentionally puts 4 shims , which are adjustable, in the suspension to reduce camber, once you take these out it completely changes.

Yes there are still cases of oversteer as with any car but you are generalizing and sound like the exactly like the guy you explain in your post who hasn't driven a modern MR, namely the Elise. I just want to make sure people aren't pretending to be doing things they aren't.

 

[The Jenius]

I think most people look towards those who do the thing in real life and also plays a fair amount of games/sims to make this call. Insidesimracing is an example of a respected, experienced source for info on how well the games physics engines work.

Unlike how graphics look (which is highly subjective) with physics they are trying to replicate a real, measureable, comparable goal, so you can actually say how good a physics engine is by carefully comparing it to reality.

I think it depends on how immersed in the project the critic is. I know from what I do, its important to take yourself away from the project and ask outside opinions, and then revisit. When you become so immersed you start to lose perception of what you are measuring against, and start to think what you have is good enough instead of constantly comparing and improving.

When I used to play football we got what we called camp goggles after a few weeks of 2-a-days because we were cut off from GFs so even the ugly managers started to look good after that time. You just lose a sense of what the truth is, a lot of guys did.

 

[dbarrade]

Jenius, I also own an early Elise S1 and have tracked it a few times and done some gymkhana events, I agree there is understeer in some situations, and am surprised that you have yet to be caught out and spun it? Seems a fairly common occurrence in the Lotus clubs I've been in, and watching other guys at track days, or even on club drive days.

I've upgraded the suspension to nitron's and tyres to A048's, and am suffering from a fair amount of bump steer right now, but I believe Geary has a product that will help me, unless you have any suggestions?

 

[bullie77]

My opinion on the thread's title:

Up to certain point GT do actually simulate real life car reations. However this is a game and there are limitations to what it actually simulates. I'll honestly say that I've never drived a race car neither a stock car freely on a race track. All the cars I've had so far were FWD, being the most powerful the one I have presently w/ 109 BHP (Volvo V40 1.6).

If I recall correctly I've only driven up to now 2 RWD cars: one doesn't even count for since it has an "astronomical" 3.3L engine that develops some outstanding 40 BHP (!). But the other - a 1963 Mercedes 230SL (150 bhp) - I've drive it on a gincana contest and I really have serious doubts that, if that car was present on GT, if it would simulate accurately - I feel that in GT the cars have a much sooner tendency to loose up the rear than they would in real life.

I remind however my self-confessed poor real life experience, but thats the feeling I've got. I guess that considering my mentioned lack of driving experience (and therefore skills), I'd loose up really quickly the rear of the Pagoda if its rear would be so easy to lose as in the game. I remind this is a 1963 car so there's no driving aids whatsoever and was running on stock tires - its a collection car.

 

[The Jenius]

Jenius, I also own an early Elise S1 and have tracked it a few times and done some gymkhana events, I agree there is understeer in some situations, and am surprised that you have yet to be caught out and spun it? Seems a fairly common occurrence in the Lotus clubs I've been in, and watching other guys at track days, or even on club drive days.

I've upgraded the suspension to nitron's and tyres to A048's, and am suffering from a fair amount of bump steer right now, but I believe Geary has a product that will help me, unless you have any suggestions?

I am sorry then. I have been caught out once but recovered in the wet on a long sweeper, the cement changed compounds, it started very subtle so it never got too bad. What guys, not me, have been doing is shaving down the arms a few millimeters, I wouldn't do more than 3mm to achieve more camber. But I guess since you already got the suspension upgrade it should'nt matter too much.

Myself, I went with slightly wider on the fronts. I have not messed with the shims, changing the oil was enough for me, and I would rather understeer than oversteer, because its not really that bad especially when a little lift can correct most times.

I really haven't had the snap most are talking about though, I guess just lucky or GT has taught me proper technique with MR and getting most of your braking out of the way.

As for the AO48s, you're crazy, I would get off of those as soon as possible. They only have a few heat cycles in them and then they get hard, and in the wet its a wrap for you. Even if you just use them for everyday driving, their life is very short. I actually went with the AO46s they are not as high performance as the 48s but miles more comfortable and quiet. I'll save the 48s for track, at that Hoosiers might be better in terms of life and grip than 48s.

Jenius, I also own an early Elise S1 and have tracked it a few times and done some gymkhana events, I agree there is understeer in some situations, and am surprised that you have yet to be caught out and spun it? Seems a fairly common occurrence in the Lotus clubs I've been in, and watching other guys at track days, or even on club drive days.

I've upgraded the suspension to nitron's and tyres to A048's, and am suffering from a fair amount of bump steer right now, but I believe Geary has a product that will help me, unless you have any suggestions?

What are you're impressions on how accurate GT is simulating the Lotus? I've had my opinions, but I want to hear from someone else who has driven a similar car.