Kazunori Yamauchi Monaco Interview: The Role AI Plays in GT Sport's BOP and Penalty Systems

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by GTPNewsWire, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. GTPNewsWire

    GTPNewsWire Contributing Writer

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  2. Clay_GT_17

    Clay_GT_17

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    Still a work in progress but it serves a good purpose. Now please let’s get SPA in the game.
     
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  3. VeeDoubleU

    VeeDoubleU

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    “The simplest aspect to it the system is always looking at and comparing how much time gain there was by making that shortcut as compared to the lap time of an AI."

    That's part of the problem. The AI is incredibly poor, at many aspects. Pace, awareness, racecraft etc

    So a slight cut might actually gain a driver only a few tenths, but because the AI is going 6 seconds slower in that sector, the driver is penalised 6 seconds? Honestly not a good system. Maybe if the AI was actually Intelligent, it would be more sensible.

    Also, AI being used for BOP to an extent partially explains why tyre wear and fuel wear aren't looked at as much, or how some cars have really poor default gearing for example. The AI can't tell you that.
     
  4. Cosbuster

    Cosbuster

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    You'd think this would be a pretty good reason on its own to improve the horrendous AI...
     
  5. Auditore

    Auditore

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    But the top drivers can which makes all these problems very confusing,the drivers that work for PD don't tell them about the tire/fuel problems?
     
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  6. Oyashiro-sama

    Oyashiro-sama

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    As an analogy, if you rob a bank and get caught by the police, you can't just say, okay, here is the money back. Actually, just don't cut. I think over-penalty is the way to go. You gain 3 seconds by cutting, you get 6 or 10 seconds penalty. That's very fair, just don't cut.
     
  7. Auditore

    Auditore

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    This looks like a dramatic cutscene before the final boss in a game

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. VeeDoubleU

    VeeDoubleU

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    At the recent FIA Finals, if a driver accidentaly went wide at a chicane, gaining a fraction of time, they got an instant 6 second penalty (which actually is even more with the penalty zones), with no chance to manually slow down or correct their mistake. It wasn't a purpose cut.

    Meanwhile in the same race, drivers would ram others off the track and get a smaller penalty.

    So, it isn't as simple as you suggest.
     
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  9. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Who's the boss, me or Yamauchi?
     
  10. Auditore

    Auditore

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    He's the final boss and you're the Penalty AI
     
  11. Lord Protector

    Lord Protector

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    Seems legit to use the AI as a reference when AI drives like a drunk pig, with zero space awareness and cheating on top of it :D I suspect that’s the reason for some unaccaptable time penalty given for example before the straights at Le Mans, where cutting the corner results in a 16 seconds penalty.AI drives like a granny thru it and so it lacks the speed on straight. Hence the harsh punishment.
     
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  12. darth_tails

    darth_tails

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    I must admit I also though that photo was an interesting one though the final boss comment I hadn't thought of.

    Tis interesting to see that my own determinations of the penalty system are confirmed by Kaz in this article, I always thought there was
    a factor involving the AI when it came to penalties and the inconsistency of them sometimes though I do feel those determinations are
    a little better now than previous.

    I guess it's time to start paying attention to where the wheels are on the track to ensure minimal penalties from now on!
     
  13. Auditore

    Auditore

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    So let's theorize a bit,if the AI was faster,more agressive and aware of its surroundings the penalty system and BoP would be better?Because that seems to be Kaz implication.
     
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  14. JTB10000

    JTB10000

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    Sounds like he's accepted how slow the A.I. is and doesn't plan on doing anything about it. Would be really nice if they used their in-house top drivers' data to adjust all of the poor lines and speeds the A.I. takes through a lot of corners but I guess the human/online element of GTS is too much of a priority.
     
  15. anthonyfa18

    anthonyfa18

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    Balance of Performance (BoP) Update pleas

    we need a lot of this, Pleas Kazunori Yamauchi Nsx GR.3 need more power. and we need more sport mode events too i would love to have a gr4 or Gr2 cup in sport mode. i hope 2019 will be full of fun updates, Tracks and Cars and bGt auto for Race car maintenance and adding aero parts for the cars.

     
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  16. RacingFan1

    RacingFan1

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    Yep AI is a bit ridiculous, not only because they seem drunk drivers, but also they do the same driving lines whether its a formula car or a little Fiat 500.
     
  17. Brzlav

    Brzlav

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    That's a terrible analogy. Accidentally cutting a corner is part of racing and is only avoided by driving too slow. Robbing a bank on the other hand is easily avoided and not an integral part of living.
     
  18. Calmlity

    Calmlity

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    The AI brakes too long at turns, that's the main problem. By the way I am still hoping PD will give option to turn off suggested gear. And please don't forget about the rain weather. :bowdown:
     
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  19. Loverson

    Loverson

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    Well as soon as i've read AI, i immediately thought "Yeah no wonder".
    GT Sport's AI is atrocious and worst of all: inconsistent. Making it that "some" courses they're better is a joke.

    You can test the AI in Nurb 24H, it is absolutely garbage and brakes\slow down at almost anything. You either improve the AI or completely change the way you review penalties (or maybe both)
     
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  20. kilesa4568

    kilesa4568

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    Too inconsistent a method. Quick drivers can end up with a possible race ruining penalty while slower drivers can get away with pushing limits. It sounds exploitable if you're slowed early in a lap too. 'I lost 5 seconds on the first corner, let's see if I can gain a couple back with a sneaky cut...'

    They know which corners can be cut (or extended) so program the system with an average human sector time to work out the penalty instead of taking the lap as a whole. It's seriously lazy to use brainless AI for lap times and borderline negligent having AI work out tyre wear. They're brutal on tyres in FF and MR classes.

    I always wondered how they worked out penalties but now I know, I wish I didn't. PD's credibility went down a notch hearing this.
     
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  21. Scuderia Paul

    Scuderia Paul

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    The AI in GTSport is too incompetent and inconsistent to have such a system truly work. I think the idea behind is perfectly fine but the AI is very poor in GTS, as it has always been in GT games, and to fully realise this method of calculating penalties you need a completely new AI model.

    I can see why PD would approach it like this but surely PD can see why it is flawed.

    We all know how poor the AI is, and PD are well aware too, so for a platform flagship title with the budget of GT to continue to serve such rubbish after 20 years is inexcusable.

     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
  22. ferhound

    ferhound

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    No please no SPA, better add Seattle Circuit or Autumn Ring.
     
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  23. Moglet

    Moglet Premium

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    I hear multiple complaints about GTSport's penalty system however I never hear any suggestions as to how to fix it or suggestions as to what the actual issue is. The corner cutting itself is a relatively simple thing to implement when compared to applying blame in situations. As an example, when you have a situation where a driver has rammed another after re-joining the track you have to set up an automated system that is able to look at not only the car that has left the track but also how they've re-joined the race, how the driver that got hit was behaving, what the network conditions were like, the relative speeds involved, the race positions, timings, wheel positions etc. It's very very difficult stuff and I'd say that GTSport actually does a fairly decent job overall. Whether the time penalties themselves are fair is another matter.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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  24. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Don't confuse the AI which races with you with the AI that hotlaps. Although not alien quick, the AI can hotlap very consistently (even in GT4) and at a fair pace. In principle, they'd only need to increase the AI pace a little bit to get more human laptimes, and there's likely a dev build with an AI pace slider.

    Also, note that Yamauchi said this was at its simplest and only a "part" of it - if I were doing it, I'd use the mini-sector time of the AI as an indication of the percentage of time you should spend in that sector at best, and adjust the penalty according to how much time was gained over how much time you should spend in that sector.
     
  25. cjr3559

    cjr3559 Premium

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    Except for the early braking, all of this incompetent AI talk sounds a lot like most human drivers I’ve experienced, myself included though I don’t ‘brake late and hope I don’t get any hate’.

    All sounds like most humans to me:

    EDIT:

    Admittedly I missed the point of the article and now I understand. Still, the whole Human/AI comparison is ironic..
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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  26. kilesa4568

    kilesa4568

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    Have they got AI that can get within a couple of seconds of the optimal top times though? They'd get a much more accurate penalty amount if they did but judging by the ridiculously large penalties you sometimes see, the AI are still miles off the pace.

    Take a competent lap time around 2-3 seconds off the optimal, average out the sector times and you'll have a more accurate shortcut penalty. Maybe add .5 to reference lap times to adjust for rank.

    We know what we're doing. The AI (I've gotta stop calling them that...) don't.
     
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  27. BallPtPenTheif

    BallPtPenTheif

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    It should definitely be rank relative. What an alien can do with a mild chicane cut versus what a DR C driver can squeeze out of it are vastly different time disparities.
     
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  28. MikeV27

    MikeV27

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    The AI is awful but it’s still better than most players.
     
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  29. Loverson

    Loverson

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    They follow a fixed pattern. The inconsistency is an actual flaw in this game sadly.
    Grid Autosport has a better human simulation where they end up crashing each other at t1 (If they are stacked for example) abd have a more distinct AI work. They are also fast and can commit some error or aggressive overtake. (But it's a rough comparison since Autosport has a better option to the AI)
     
  30. fastone371

    fastone371

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    Short cut penalties should be strong, it is there to penalize you and teach not to clip corners too close.