Kimi talks with Williams? - No. Signs with Lotus Renault for 2012

Bram Turismo
I dearly hope you're being overly sarcastic. Hamilton was McLaren's number 1 wonderkid ever since he started karting. They didn't really bothered what Alonso wanted, they wanted to see Hamilton shine. Knowing Alonso's mentality and the expectations he had of treatment within that team all hell broke loose.
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From an outside perspective I've said, that was an internal struggle that really wans't fully known till the end of that season but not the point I was trying to make. The point is at the core, Hamilton was faster than Alonso or just as fast and was a rookie, so maybe just maybe that is what Renault wanted a driver that could match Alonso or be faster than the two time champ.
 
Glad to see Kimi back, after reading some of his statements I'm prepared to give him a chance to prove himself again. I don't expect amazing things from him in terms of results, because I don't think the car will be able to give enough to do this.

I think he'll return as a more rounded racer, but I still wouldn't expect him to come across as a bounding, enthusiastic, laugh-a-minute, PR machine though.
 
The Outlaw
Edit: And no Alonso didn't manage to come anywhere near a win in 2009...and we all know what happened at Singapore in 2008 (and I hope you do to), so to use that as some type of evidence to support your argument is a bit far fetched.
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Firstly, Alonso won fair and square at Fuji in 2008 (one race after Singapore). Secondly, Alonso took pole at Hungary in 2009, although that may have been a timing glitch. The timing system cut out during Q3. He was doing quite well too until a botched pitstop saw him being released without a wheel nut fastened.

He may not have been on for a win, but was looking good for a podium.
 
I could see a Raikkonen Kubica (when he's back) combination being a championship contenting combination, thats if it plays out like that. ;)
 
Robin.
I could see a Raikkonen Kubica (when he's back) combination being a championship contenting combination, thats if it plays out like that. ;)
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Or if Ferrari and Massa still struggle and Renault is good enough, they could overtake Ferrari in the constructor's. The big factor would be Ferrari not improving much though.
 
ROAD_DOGG33J
Or if Ferrari and Massa still struggle and Renault is good enough, they could overtake Ferrari in the constructor's. The big factor would be Ferrari not improving much though.
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I would like to see Massa kicked off the team for a faster driver. I know it's cruel but in the expensive world of formula 1 where performance is everything, especially from a team like Ferrari.
Honestly Ferrari need a brilliant car for next year of they want a world championship.
 
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The Iceman smiles at last. :lol:
 
I was about to say "photoshop", but that would require that a pic with him smiling already be in existence.:lol:

I'll rate this right after Bigfoot and Nessie on the "it's probably fake" list.
 
Robin.
I could see a Raikkonen Kubica (when he's back) combination being a championship contenting combination, thats if it plays out like that. ;)
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Except that the R31 was useless, and the team are already promising a "conservative" approach for 2012.
 
hahaha. The R31 was designed for Robert Kubica which was part of the problem regardless of front facing exhaust etc. If kubica had been with the team that R31 would have been a top 10 contender week in and week out
 
Sach_F1
The car wasn't useless at the start of the season though. It pushed for podiums.
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Yeah but the team built a car that couldn't be improved upon, the forward exhaust idea was stupid in the end and cost them. Maybe if they designed some new aero part or function to go along with the frontward exhaust to compete with the blown diffuser, they would've had a chance. They lost aero to everyone else, due to a radical idea that just did far more bad than good.

The car was great from the start, but quickly became a moot system early after the two podiums.

Blaze_409
hahaha. The R31 was designed for Robert Kubica which was part of the problem regardless of front facing exhaust etc. If kubica had been with the team that R31 would have been a top 10 contender week in and week out
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Even if it was designed for Kubica that isn't the point, the car wasn't going to go anywhere unless they went for a back facing exhaust and a blown diffuser option like everyone else. The ECU/Throttle off setup helped the top four teams something that Kubica would have never overcome. You can't overcome aero disadvantage. Also the car was built as much for him as it was for Petrov. However, when the engineers build a car that can't be improved on but everyone else can, that shows you that their is a problem with the car only and not the drivers. Same can easily be said over at Williams, it's easy to blame Rubens and Pastor, but their radical ideas as well were crap and cost them this year. Last year to this year shows how much they slipped.
 
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LMSCorvetteGT2
Yeah but the team built a car that couldn't be improved upon, the forward exhaust idea was stupid in the end and cost them. Maybe if they designed some new aero part or function to go along with the frontward exhaust to compete with the blown diffuser, they would've had a chance. They lost aero to everyone else, due to a radical idea that just did far more bad than good.

The car was great from the start, but quickly became a moot system early after the two podiums.



Even if it was designed for Kubica that isn't the point, the car wasn't going to go anywhere unless they went for a back facing exhaust and a blown diffuser option like everyone else. The ECU/Throttle off setup helped the top four teams something that Kubica would have never overcome. You can't overcome aero disadvantage. Also the car was built as much for him as it was for Petrov. However, when the engineers build a car that can't be improved on but everyone else can, that shows you that their is a problem with the car only and not the drivers. Same can easily be said over at Williams, it's easy to blame Rubens and Pastor, but their radical ideas as well were crap and cost them this year. Last year to this year shows how much they slipped.
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I recall them actually benefiting from the forwards exhaust at the beginning of the season. When Heidfeld was being pressured for 3rd at Malaysia in the last few laps, I recall David Coulthard saying that an attribute of the forward exhaust was that they got tons of exit corner grip.
 
Kamuifanboy
I recall them actually benefiting from the forwards exhaust at the beginning of the season. When Heidfeld was being pressured for 3rd at Malaysia in the last few laps, I recall David Coulthard saying that an attribute of the forward exhaust was that they got tons of exit corner grip.
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Yes I understand that, but once again that was far ahead into the season, when the cars were still virtually close to what they were in winter testing. Hence why the car was good then but by Brazil we saw just what the R31 was, a nice car to look at but smoke and mirrors like the FW33. When the upgrades hit like the big ones for Turkey then we see that Renault aren't bad but can't keep up with the top tier teams like the previous races. We see this before Turkey as well with China but I believe Heidfeld had a technical issue with the car there if I'm not wrong, however Petrov only got 9th, not very impressive for a car that landed podium two races before. The forward exhaust didn't do much for the car obviously and the little that it did seemed to be cut down with each upgrade Renault brought, this is seen especially and the street courses.

Also why argue, even the Renault guys themselves said they built a car that they couldn't improve on and this is why they plan to take a more conservative approach. If the front blown exhaust was that good, it would be another banned piece for next year like the double decker diffuser, f-duct, or off throttle and teams would complain over it.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Also why argue, even the Renault guys themselves said they built a car that they couldn't improve on and this is why they plan to take a more conservative approach. If the front blown exhaust was that good, it would be another banned piece for next year like the double decker diffuser, f-duct, or off throttle and teams would complain over it.
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Why get pissed? All I said was that DC stated that the forwards exhausts weren't all that bad. With more development they could potentially become good. Exit corner grip is really important, is it not?

I think more of the problem at Renault this year, was the fact that the car was designed for someone who wasn't racing in it. Also, the fact that Petrov and Bruno are still new to F1, which usually indicates that they aren't that good at knowing what the car will need to get better. Heidfeld should posses this skill but seems to be lacking it. How can you make a car better, when the people that are driving it and giving you the feedback may not be proven to now what is needed?
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
If the front blown exhaust was that good, it would be another banned piece for next year like the double decker diffuser, f-duct, or off throttle and teams would complain over it.
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The front blown exhaust will be banned next year. The rules regarding placement of exhaust exits will make it impossible to implement. It's just that nobody is making much of a fuss over losing that particular avenue of technology because, as you say, it turned out to be a bit crap.
 
Kamuifanboy
I think more of the problem at Renault this year, was the fact that the car was designed for someone who wasn't racing in it. Also, the fact that Petrov and Bruno are still new to F1, which usually indicates that they aren't that good at knowing what the car will need to get better. Heidfeld should posses this skill but seems to be lacking it. How can you make a car better, when the people that are driving it and giving you the feedback may not be proven to now what is needed?
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I think it was made pretty clear over the course of the season that the car wasn't consistently good. Heidfeld, Petrov and Senna all demonstrated they could manage Q3 in qualifying if the car delivered, but it didn't.
The front-exhausts seem to be extremely track-dependent.

While I'm sure feedback and development may have been an issue from the drivers, I somewhat doubt it. Heidfeld is meant to be one of the best at that.

We can't really blame the drivers for the front exhausts not being a very develop-able part. The front-exhausts simply didn't work as well as the exhaust-blown diffusers. Its as simple as that.
If you're suggesting somehow that Kubica would extracted that much more from the car to make it consistently top 10 material, I don't agree at all.
I certainly think Kubica probably would have got some slightly better results, especially when the car worked. But I can't see him having dragged the Renault into better positions than what was achieved at Singapore, for example.
 
Kamuifanboy
Why get pissed? All I said was that DC stated that the forwards exhausts weren't all that bad. With more development they could potentially become good. Exit corner grip is really important, is it not?

I think more of the problem at Renault this year, was the fact that the car was designed for someone who wasn't racing in it. Also, the fact that Petrov and Bruno are still new to F1, which usually indicates that they aren't that good at knowing what the car will need to get better. Heidfeld should posses this skill but seems to be lacking it. How can you make a car better, when the people that are driving it and giving you the feedback may not be proven to now what is needed?
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I'm not getting pissed, I just don't understand why people would argue what Renault have said, and evidence has shown. For what little corner grip they had, the top tier teams must of had a hell of a front wing that made them choose not to go that route. That is the point I'm trying to make here, it didn't really add that much to the whole "aero package". Okay, let me give a better final example, Melbourne where they gained a podium was a street course, however toward the end of the season you have Renault saying (drivers and all) that the car is quite awful on street circuits and South Korea showed this. Now this should tell you something about the car as a whole, from Australia to Korea.

Imari
The front blown exhaust will be banned next year. The rules regarding placement of exhaust exits will make it impossible to implement. It's just that nobody is making much of a fuss over losing that particular avenue of technology because, as you say, it turned out to be a bit crap.
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Ah, thanks for correcting me, I forgot that they're going back to the periscope exhaust exits next year. I guess I forgot that quickly from the young drivers testing (shows how important it is to me).
 
Robin.
I could see a Raikkonen Kubica (when he's back) combination being a championship contenting combination....
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Not really. When people talk about "championship contention" they're not talking about battling for fifth in the drivers championship or for third in the constructors championship, but rather as serious contenders for number one. Unless Lotus (Renault in 2011) see some major improvements (bigger gains than the top teams) over the off season, there's no way in Alabama that they're going to be contending for any meaningful number of podiums, let alone the lead in either championship.

Sach_F1
The car wasn't useless at the start of the season though. It pushed for podiums.
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Which is still useless. If we all take off in a foot race and Bob does well at first it doesn't mean squat if he then falls way off the pace. Being fast in the first ten meters of a hundred-meter dash is useless. If they can't keep development pace with Red Bull, McLaren, and Ferrari, it doesn't matter what they do early on.

Blaze_409
If kubica had been with the team that R31 would have been a top 10 contender week in and week out
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Being in contention for top-ten positions isn't the same as being in proper title contention. A bunch of 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th place finishes isn't the same as contending for podiums. Here we're talking about "doing okay" rather than serious championship contention.
 
IceMan PJN
Being in contention for top-ten positions isn't the same as being in proper title contention. A bunch of 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th place finishes isn't the same as contending for podiums. Here we're talking about "doing okay" rather than serious championship contention.
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Doing OK was all that was ever really going to be possible for that car though. You could have Superman driving, Flash Gordon doing the pitstops and Batman heading up development and it'd still only be running in the bottom half of the top ten. It's a pretty substantial step down for a team that was winning world championships not so long ago, but it is what it is.
 
I'm just saying their development screwed them over throughout the course of the season, and they've admitted this. I don't think it's a championship-contending car, but I think it could challenge if they get it right next season, and I also don't think Petrov is to be blamed for his lack of performance, as Imari pointed out.
 
Well, looks like we will get to see if Grojean can prove himself. Got the Lotus Renault ride for next year along side Kimi. Sorry to bring this up in this thread. But there was much discussion about him in here.
 
It's too bad Petrov won't be around to provide a more reliable/proven benchmark for Raikkonen, but oh well, I'm glad Grosjean will now get his time in what should be a reasonable car (unlike the R29 he was blessed with in his initial debut :ill:)
 
Now we don't have a reliable benchmark for either of them as neither has raced in F1 for the last 2 seasons.

Grosjean didn't have any testing chances during Friday practices did he? That puts him in a worse position than when Senna took over from Heidfeld.
I wish Grosjean well, and he has another chance to prove himself. Raikkonen has obviously already proved himself, it's just a case of whether he can rekindle the world champion driver inside of him. It's a shame for both Petrov and Senna, but neither of them ever really shone and only occasionally put in a solid performance that the likes of Kubica would better every time.
 
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