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Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Hologram777, Sep 19, 2011.
Duh to you.
This is great news, hope he get's a good car. The king of SPA is back
He did. It usually ended up with someone out of the race.
I guess I was right, I want my cookie
This is true. Never thought of it in that light.
He is great attacking driver, nice to watch
Really...all I recall Kimi saying is that he would not be driving for Renault going into the 2011 season. I never recall him saying, "he would never drive for the team" period. In the case of prisonersmonkey, he has a tendency to try to be the authority on matters of speculation. This tends to become a bit of a nuisance, particularly when it's all based around some sort of hidden/negative agenda of his.
Lastly, IMO the possibilty for Renault looking for a top name (like Raikkonen) for 2012 was always there, as I indicated a while back in another thread:
Although I agree with some of what you say, I don't see how this (the bold) can annoy you so much, especially considering guys like Petrov pay there way into seats, then have all this time to prove themselves, yet after 2 years still don't show much of anything (he sure is lucky to have a lot of backing lol)....while someone experienced like Sutil have to fight for their lives just to find a place on the grid next year, much less in a very strong team like LRGP.
Hmmm, as I said some time ago - Put your money where your mouth is then I got $500 that won't happen...now how about you?
I only await some good quotes and some vodka (or Magnum) influenced videos. Not really looking forward to his interviews, he's like Hakkinen without the cheeky smile, it reminds me too much of missing Mika. I am looking forward to his ace qualifying and race pace though.
I wouldn't miss Petrov to be honest. I'm not too keen on Alguesuari or Buemi either but I guess they all deserve a shot. I can't really blame Renault/Lotus for taking Raikkonen considering their past season of mediocrity when it comes to drivers.
Grosjean definitely needs the other seat though.
expect a lot of black and gold shirts at races now
Um, why? He had his shot in a fairly competitive car, and failed to even score points, let alone finish in the top 10. Alonso managed to win in the same car if I'm not mistaken.
Or Maybe it was 2008 when Alonso won at Singapore? I can't remember really
Grosjean never had any shot.
He was given one single season with a double world champion as his teammate. Briatore as teamboss + Alonso number 1 driver = all the crap for Grosjean. Grosjean never had any kind of a fair chance at proving his worth.
That reminds me alot of another driver in the same situation from an outside viewing perspective, what was his name...I know the year was 2007 but for the life of me I can't remember his name. Well the funny thing is he easily gave Alonso a run for his money and wont you know it he won the next year's WDC after Alonso left.
It's no different with Alonso's situation at Ferrari right now. It's fairly clear that Alonso is first driver. I'd be willing to bet he gets a slightly faster car as well. But you certainly don't see Massa finishing too far behind him.
So maybe his car wasn't quite as quick as Alonso's. Alonso still managed to finish in the points and Top 10 multiple times over the season. But wasn't quite as quick should have still guaranteed him at least one top 10 don't you think?
You are mistaken . 2009 Alonso and Grosjean were back of the grid at Abu Dhabi:
3 tenths apart isn't so bad really. Grosjean was much further off the pace a lot of the time though, but come on, clearly the car was utter crap. Its not surprising that a double WDC is going to completely slaughter a rookie with no testing. It would be amazing if he didn't! Alonso did put it one pole at Hungary that year, but this was back in the days of "race fuel for Q3" where Renault would run a light car to steal some headlines and then be nowhere in the races.
You only have to look at Grosjean's CV and actually watch the man race to know he is a special talent. Every car he has jumped in except that Renault he has been competing for wins, even in GT1...
I probably shouldn't take that seriously, considering that you have a blinding dislike for Kimi, but, i'll fire away anyway.
Do you honestly think that Renault will fire someone of the level of Raikkonen for complaining about the car? Probably the biggest asset that team currently has is Raikkonen in a seat for next year. He will do well, I can assure you.
Just because you are doing well in other series/types of cars doesn't always mean you will do well in Formula 1. Formula 1 is a different animal to any other racing series in the world. According to the SPEED commentators you either "get it" or you "don't." Kobayashi and Perez are able to jump into the sport and do well immediately. They obviously "got it." I think Di Resta is another that, "got it." Some notable GP2 champions that didn't, Maldonado and Glock.
Of course, but seeing as "other series" are our only gauge to how good drivers are, it stands to reason to want to see them get a shot, no?
We already know where Petrov and Senna stand talent wise. Grosjean is still an unknown after that disastorous 2009 semi-season.
Glock is a pretty damn good driver, I thought that was pretty commonly accepted? My god I hope I don't have to once again defend Toyota's drivers once again. Trulli and Glock get so much crap thrown at them its doing my head in.
This doesn't change the fact that the 2009 Renault was one of the worst cars on the grid. Alonso is one of the best drivers on the grid and we have seen this year how he can take a relatively uncompetitive car and fight at the front, where his teammate is lacking.
Vettel has made more mistakes at the wheel in F1 than Grosjean has, probably even in just 2009, and look where he is now.
So did I. To those who doubt, think back to Korea 2010. Glock was running really well and was on course for possible points if Buemi hadn't taken him out. The Virgin-Marussia is on par with the HRT, slower even on some circuits. He doesn't have chance to shine, most of his race involves jostling for positions whilst being waved down with blue flags.
No, I think Renault will fire Raikkonen because he will realise the car is not what he expected and so won't be bothered to try anymore. He'll just tread water and expect Renault to do something. Haven't you been following the WRC this season? Raikkonen has a bad hait of giving up the moment things don't go his way. He crashed into Henning Solberg in France, and retired on the spot. But his car was simply immobilised, and probably could have been restarted and Raikkonen would have made it to the next passage control with only a minor time penalty. Instead, he decided to go home - within an hour of the crash - because it was too hard to get a decent result, and left his team manager trying to explain things.
Your talking like he didn't get a shot. He got a shot at racing in Formula 1 did he not? It's the same for every rookie. You have to make your name as a second driver that doesn't get everything handed to him like the first. That's just how it is and some drivers are able to cope and others aren't. If I remember correctly, Kobayashi finished ahead of Trulli, having never raced Formula 1 before when Trulli should have had much more experience, and finished ahead of him in his first 2 races.
Trulli is a fantastic driver, but again, Glock not able to outpace him when in theory he has better credentials than Trulli, and Kobayashi for that matter, having won a GP2 championship.
Why carry on the argument when it's clear you don't know what you're talking about?
Edit: And no Alonso didn't manage to come anywhere near a win in 2009...and we all know what happened at Singapore in 2008 (and I hope you do to), so to use that as some type of evidence to support your argument is a bit far fetched.
I corrected myself, did I not?
According to Wikipedia Alonso had multiple Top 10's and scored points in 2009. Not close to a win but a heck of a lot better than Grojean if you ask me.
He got half a season in a crap car against a teammate he would never match or beat. I wouldn't call that "a shot". He was moved too early out of GP2. Put it this way, Kobayashi, Perez, Di Resta..any recent rookie you care to mention wouldn't have done much better.
You can't expect all rookies to perform like Hamilton or Kobayashi and perform instantly, not to mention this is ignorant of the circumstances. Kobayashi was under almost no pressure from the team though he did have his own personal pressure as his racing career was on the line (he had apparently run out of money at that point and was going to finish motor-racing). Hamilton came in but wasn't expected to beat Alonso and had a good helping of support from Ron Dennis as well as plenty of testing.
And Kobayashi finished ahead of Trulli in Brazil because Trulli never finished. He finished ahead in Abu Dhabi because he was on a different fuel strategy if I remember right.
Glock did match Trulli in 2008 and 2009.
Have you watched Grosjean race other than in F1?
I agree that previous race credentials aren't always an indicator of talent in F1. But sometimes you get drivers who win everything. Like Hamilton, like Hulkenburg, like Ayrton Senna, like a lot of the top drivers. Some like Liuzzi and Magnussen never really meet expectations, but generally, a lot of them do.
Sometimes you watch a driver and you just know that they have as you put it "got it". Anyone who has watched Sebastien Bourdais or Romain Grosjean race in other series will know that if they were given the right environment in F1, they would be successful. There are drivers who clearly have something everyone else does not.
Yes, which then invalidated your point.
It much more complicated than that though. You're not taking into account such things like favoritism in the team, the strength of the team mate, how difficult the car is to drive, etc. etc.
Yes, I have seen every GP2 race he's been in. Very good in a GP2 car, and I guess he's raced with Matech as well in FIA GT1, won at Abu Dhabi I believe in 2010. But still failed to perform in Formula 1. Arguing that he got moved up too early is nonsense. Raikkonen went straight from Formula Renault to F1 and seemed to transition. Yeah he finished behind Nick in points but he was still able to manage a respectable amount of points.
Yes, and Button moved straight from F3 to F1, yes I know there are also examples of drivers adapting despite jumping some career steps.
Again, you are taking circumstances from other drivers and applying it to others when they don't even match at all. Did Button or Raikkonen jump in with no testing, mid-season against a 2xWDC teammate in a crap car? No.
Valencia Q1 - Grosjean to Alonso - 2 tenths
Valencia Q2 - Grosjean to Alonso - 3 tenths
Spa Q1 - Grosjean to Alonso - 6 tenths
Monza Q1 - Grosjean to Alonso - 2 tenths
Monza Q2 - Grosjean to Alonso - 3 tenths
Singapore Q1 - Grosjean to Alonso - 8 tenths
Suzuka Q1 - Grosjean to Alonso - 6 tenths
Interlagos Q1 - Alonso to Grosjean - 5 tenths
Interlagos Q2 - Grosjean to Alonso - 8 tenths
Abu Dhabi Q1 - Grosjean to Alonso - 3 tenths
Looks pretty reasonable to me for a rookie. In the same races, Alonso managed 13 points with a 6th, 5th and a 3rd and considering Piquet Jr never scored points that year and the team ended 8th in the WCC we can hardly blame Grosjean for not managing the top 10 very often.
Even Alonso couldn't get out of Q1 at the end of the year, so bad that car was.....
I dearly hope you're being overly sarcastic. Hamilton was McLaren's number 1 wonderkid ever since he started karting. They didn't really bothered what Alonso wanted, they wanted to see Hamilton shine. Knowing Alonso's mentality and the expectations he had of treatment within that team all hell broke loose.
Yes, and not making this up. But when I first saw Kimi drive in Formula Renault, I told my parents, at my young age of 7, that he would become a Formula 1 World Champion. I thought this about Hamilton as well. Think he's a great talent. Just needs to learn how to not hit people.
But I have never once thought that about Grojean. That's opinion which doesn't matter.
Circumstances are circumstances, you have to learn to deal with them. First driver always will get the upper hand. It has no difference on whether or not it's a 2 time World Champ or not.
It's fairly clear that this won't get resolved anytime soon. Only time will tell. He'll have to get in an F1 car and drive well to prove me wrong. Until then, not deserving IMO.
Isn't returning to GP2 and dominating it "learning to deal with it"? He went back and returned the ailing DAMS team to the top of the series. I honestly can't see how much more Grosjean could have done.
I love how you pass off no testing and the differences in teammates, cars and teams as "circumstances are circumstances". Well excuse me while I consider those circumstances differently. I mean Heidfeld and Ralf aren't exactly slow but then they aren't 2xWDCs either. And no, I don't consider either of them good enough in the right circumstances to have been WDC. And the Sauber and the Williams were decent cars, capable of points scoring. The 2009 Renault was invaribly not and faced much tougher and closer competition than ever before.
In 2008, 2009 and 2010, the close-ness of the field was unlike any other. The entire grid was being split by tenths of a second, such that any rookie was always going to find it difficult to make an impression. Being 2 or 3 tenths off your teammate could mean 4 or 5 positions in qualifying and hence in the race as well, such as the case was with Grosjean.
Whereas Button and Raikkonen could make quite a bit of difference when they were pretty competitive machinery and with the Minardis, Jordans, Jaguars, etc having little to no chance of ever getting ahead in qualifying or races.
Not to mention differences in tyres (Button and Raikkonen entered during a tyre war which also seperated the teams a fair bit).
No rookie should be expected to match and beat a WDC teammate first try.
All things aside. There must be some reason he is no longer in a drivers seat. Obviously there's something missing there.