Kimi talks with Williams? - No. Signs with Lotus Renault for 2012

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Hologram777, Sep 19, 2011.

  1. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    Except that you're ignoring the way your "facts" are two years out of date. According to you, Raikkonen can be competitive in any car he steps into, despite the fact that he hasn't driven an open-wheel racing car for two years, and has spent most of his time on dirt and snow since he left. He has no experience with Pirelli tyres, DRS, the new KERS units or fuel-heavy cars. The sport has changed compeltely since he left, and yet you insist he can be as compeittive as he was at the height of his powers as if the biggest changes the sport has ever seen were never happened.
     
  2. corporatesteve

    corporatesteve

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    Your opinion is a fallacy of hasty generalization and irrelevant conclusion.
     
  3. mattythedog

    mattythedog Premium

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    Not really. Look how long it took Schumi to adjust. This is nearly the end of his second year back and he hadn't been on the podium once.
     
  4. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    "Hasty generalisation"? Would you mind explaining that one to me? How is it a generalisation to say that the sport has undergone major changes since Raikkonen left, when the sport has actually undergone major changes? Take the Pirelli tyres as a prime example of this - they were deliberately designed to be as different to the old Bridgestones as possible. They wear out faster, provide their grip in a compeltely different way, and produce marbles. Raikkonen has never driven on them. or how about refuelling: it was reintroduced to the sport in 1993. Raikkonen did not make his Formula 1 debut until 2001. And refuelling was only re-banned in 2010, after Raikkonen had left the sport. A fuel-heavy car handles in a completely different way to the light cars Raikkonen was driving.

    Likewise, how is my post "irrelevant conclusion"? Again, looking at the Pirelli tyres: when they were introduced at the end of 2010, a special post-season testing session was dedicated to them so that the teams and drivers could understand them because they were so different to anything that had been used. For some reason, you seem to think this will not be an issue for Raikkonen. But he has spent two years out of the sport, and in that two years, he has been rallying - and rallying is a completely different discipline to open-wheel racing.

    If my post is made up of hasty generalistaions and irrelvant conclusions, your is made up almost exclusively of irrational overstatment and misleading information. For some reason, you seem to think that Raikkonen can simply knock on Red Bull's front door, be given a racing seat on the basis tat he is Kimi Raikkonen, and show himself to be a championship contender from the first practice session in Melbourne next season. And all of this is based on "facts" that are two years old. You are a prime example of why I do not like Raikkonen's fans - you're irrational, delusional, and refuse to acknowledge the idea that Raikkonen is anything less than superhuman. I suggest you stop with this kind of behaviour before you really embarrass yourself.
     
  5. Terronium-12

    Terronium-12 Moderator

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    I'm certain the door has closed on the embarrassment issue.
     
  6. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    Yes, but the door to really embarrassing himself is still wide open.
     
  7. Enzo309

    Enzo309 (Banned)

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    Adjusting for /DRS or heavy fuel loaded cars are not a problem for someone who has experience

    Even before 2011 , all drivers did not have drs all drivers get all mental timing like braking points and track layout and all switchings on wether brakes bias (obviously with no abs its important to get those spot on) or fuel mixture or throttle sensitivity , they test everything in team's simulator because testing is illegal in F1 at anytime anyway

    For a rookie like vitaly petrov in 2010 choosing not to use brakes switching for Singapore grand prix , he has confusions because he is inexperienced , even Robert kubica himself said he wanted an experienced team mate like he is.

    Being a world champion and almost 10 years of experience, adjusting in regulations won't be a problem.

    The 2009 car had Kers on most races and what if kimi didnt have Kers in 2009? , wouldn't make a difference because you get used to them very quickly even before the season starts.

    And in 2009 the f60 was not competing for 1st but Kimi wasn't bored but he had difficulties with the new regulations because in gt5 it's like f10 and f2007 although the f2007 is just too easy , infact easier than pd go kart in gt5 , he left and tried something else but that's no primary reason , in 2009 Fernando Alonso was already for 2010 for Ferrari and Kimi had a choice of staying and Massa leaving but Massa had contract still and the alonso's sponsor was demanding Alonso.
     
  8. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    But it's not something that is completely negated by Raikkonen's ability. He will have to get used to it. And that will take time. Maybe only a day, but it's a day his team would lose.

    I never said it would be a problem. I said it would be a challenge they had to overcome.

    Yes, the F60 did - but the technology has evolved.
     
  9. Terronium-12

    Terronium-12 Moderator

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    Does that make sense to anyone?

    If so, please, explain it to me...because I'm not following. Kimi doesn't have experience with the current regulations. What was in '09 is irrelevant because everything else is practically different on a fundamental level.

    You lost me pretty much everywhere else...

    Tree'd.
     
  10. Furi

    Furi Premium

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    Did KERS being in mean Michael Schumacher was no longer up to scratch? Regs have not changed to the point it requires a total rewrite of how to drive. As for Kimi, going to Williams make's sense as I suppose he brings money in. Rubens out, Kimi in sadly I think...
     
  11. noisiaturismo

    noisiaturismo (Banned)

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    Kimi also put the fastest lap in Singapore in 2008... or is that beaten by Vettel and friends?
     
  12. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    The tyres have. The produce grip differently, and behave differently when compared to the Bridgestones.
     
  13. Furi

    Furi Premium

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    But ya still driving a open-wheel car with 4 tyres and an engine. Kimi can drive an F1 car if he comes back. Question is how quickly.
     
  14. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw Premium

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    I don't know how much that is really saying though. For me, Webber has been about as brillant (or consistantly lack luster) as Felipe Massa has been this season...but that's just my opinion. Both drivers have gotten completely destroyed by their team mates, and generally have seemed to be quite far off of what the car is truly capable of.

    I'll refrain from commenting on the Raikkonen/Webber comparions though, as I don't feel there are any real geniune points to base the argument on, besides peoples scattered opinions on how they rate drivers. Raikkonen hasn't touched an F1 car in ~ 2 years, much less an F1 car under the current regs...so who knows exactly how he would fair particularly when it comes to being able to adapt in a timely manner.

    That's Funny - Despite the fact that he was "visibily bored", he scored the most WDC points (ok he was tied with Barichello) in the second half of 09 in what was probably the 3rd best car on the grid, and a car that was seeing very little development at the time.

    Although I agree that the raikkonen fan boys do to tend to be a bit over fanatical, you're honestly just as bad with your over-eagnerness to shut them down with mis guided information.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  15. daan

    daan Moderator

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    There should be a rule about once you leave F1, you can never come back. Kimi left of his own violition. The bigger teams didn't want him (which should give you a hint that you're not really wanted or rated anymore) and he refused a contract from Toyota. He's had his chance and he blew it. Get some new, young driver in.
     
  16. RTSolvalou

    RTSolvalou (Banned)

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    Williams would be fools to take him on, I don't think it will happen.
    If they do, it will be amusing since at first Kimi wanted huge pay from whatever team he went to, but now he'll be the one who has to pay to get in.
     
  17. MatskiMonk

    MatskiMonk

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    Sorry, but most of the 'new', 'young' drivers in F1 paid to get there and are pretty average. Kimi would outclass most of the current crop given half decent machinery.

    Personally, I'd respect Kimi less for coming back to F1, especially to Williams, but if he did come back I would probably be cheering him on every race.
     
  18. daan

    daan Moderator

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    When he's not getting changed into shorts and going and getting an ice cream. Kimi's head isn't right for a big team in F1, and he won't settle for a small team.

    Get Bianchi or Vergne, or even Bottas or Calado in there to see what they can do. Getting Kimi or keeping Rubens is not what Williams or F1 needs.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  19. Terronium-12

    Terronium-12 Moderator

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    You leave Rubens alone. :grumpy:
     
  20. niky

    niky Moderator

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    The only reason to bring Kimi in is name-recognition and the money that would bring (as with Schumacher).

    As a hotlapper, of course, Kimi is blisteringly quick. As a racing driver, no doubt he could still dice with the sharp end of the pack.

    But what you want in a big team is a well-rounded driver who will race well, help with car development, and do interviews and promotional activities. Kimi is good at maybe just one of the three.

    Kimi is good at maybe one of the three. Astoundingly good, though. He was once rated as one of the ten best drivers ever in F1... just below Senna and Schumacher... but it's scary for a team to take him on if they can't be sure he's all there.

    He's not like Juan Pablo Montoya, who drives like hell in CART and wins the whole thing, then leaves CART and goes to F1 and drives like hell. Then leaves F1 and goes to NASCAR and still drives like hell. Kimi has been wandering in never-never land since leaving F1, and that's not a good sign.

    ---

    Kimi, being younger than Schumacher, is much fitter to be in F1, but like Schumacher, you have to wonder at the level of rust around those gears... :lol:
     
  21. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    Ah, that's right! How could I forget that the FIA awards bonus prizes to the driver who scores the most points in a particular half of the season?

    You didn't actually read my post, did you? I said Raikkonen was visibly bored with the sport halfway into the season, not in the second half of the season. Felipe Massa's accident was a kick in the pants to Ferrari, and the team looked to Raikkonen to lead them. If you're looking to "shut somebody down", the least you can do is read their post first. Not as a common courtesy, but so that you actually know what you're addressing. Because otherwise, you end up wide of the mark, and that never looks good.
     
  22. Seismica

    Seismica Premium

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    If you look at it another way, Jenson scored the most in the first half of the season. So by that logic, shouldn't Raikkonen have been world champion? :sly:

    I was pretty sure it was infact Lewis who scored more in the later part of the year, I guess i'm mistaken.
     
  23. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    No because Button scored the most points over the entire season.
     
  24. MatskiMonk

    MatskiMonk

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    Personally I'd rather see Kimi stick at rallying and succeed in that, or possibly go sportscar racing instead - I think he can be an immensely quick driver but I do agree that the other attributes required for a well-rounded sponsor and media friendly F1 driver do appear to be lacking. On the other hand, he will bring a lot of interest and therefore probably sponsor money to Williams, and unlike when he joined Ferrari, there won't be a massive weight of expectation on his shoulders.

    Simply if it came down to who I'd rather have driving my race car, Rubens, Pastor or Kimi... I would go for Kimi every time.
     
  25. Bigbazz

    Bigbazz

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    Raikkonen would be awesome to have back in the sport but he won't be competitive in a Williams. Even if he got a Red Bull drive however, Vettel would make him look bad. Raikkonen has been out of the sport assing around not doing very well in rally and getting hot n bothered in NASCAR, it will take him a season or two to get back up to speed and even when he does the competition right now is stronger than when he left. Mclaren aren't going to be changing their drivers in the near future, Kimi didnt like Ferrari and they kicked him out for alonso, Massa doesnt deserve to be in Ferrari but Di Resta, Perez and Kobayashi do and are better future investments. Red Bull are keeping Mark until the point where they seem intent on Daniel Ricciardo. So Raikkonen is stuck with a lower team for the near future regardless of where he goes, so his chances of being competitive are low-nil.

    Thought Kimi said he only wanted to be in F1 if he could be competitive?



    On a positive note, if he sticks for the long haul he is still young enough to get into a position where he can be competitive. Schumacher has shown this year that despite his age he is still lightning fast and an extremely good (perhaps one of the best) racer on race day. However, Kimi isn't known for his patience and I don't know how long it will last.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  26. Jimlaad43

    Jimlaad43 Premium

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    Raikkonen would struggle on a return. He has driven F1 cars before, but none of them had these degrading Pirellis, or DRS, and KERS (which he has used before) is just an extra confusant.
     
  27. ECGadget

    ECGadget

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    Well, Schumi is doing okay... and he was out for 3 years... Okay, so he isn't doing as well as he should... but still...

    I'd like to see another world champion in the mix... but only if Barrichello doesn't go... I'm sorry but Maldonado was sponsered to get in, Barrichello worked his way in, and that puts him MUCH MUCH higher in my books, as well as he's the most experienced driver out there...
     
  28. Bigbazz

    Bigbazz

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    Barrichello is a fast and experienced driver and he is worthy of being a World Champion, but he is burnt out and he obviously isnt a good long term option for Williams. Maldonado is a good driver and while he isnt quite of Barrichello's level yet, he is only still in his rookie year.

    Williams have never been known for their loyalty to drivers so don't be surprised if they dump Rubens in favour of a younger world champion driver who brings sponsers. The thing Williams need most is money, and having 2 drivers that bring money will help them a lot.
     
  29. Anghammarad

    Anghammarad Premium

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    This discussion is bordering on silly on some hands. The truth is that Kimi has more talent than Lightning McQueen and there are probably not five people in the field today who can drive an F1 car quicker. There is most likely not one team who would not want him to drive for them and the only thing to stop him if he really wanted to come back is the too high paycheck he will ask for, and of course the fact that most teams already have contracted drivers.

    If you were to tear up all contracts and put all drivers in a pool and use the same type of drafting system as they have in US professional sports, Kimi would be drafted in the first round.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  30. Bigbazz

    Bigbazz

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    How can you say this? Some of the young guys this year are so talented and without being given a chance in a real competitive car how can you ever make any assumption?

    And sure, the top drivers at the moment are Vettel, Button, Alonso and Hamilton, with Webber having a bit of a dry season (considering he is in the same car as Vettel). So you could say that Kimi would fit in that 5, but then given the chance of a good car so could a few other drivers.

    Di Resta, Kobayashi, Perez.