Kimi talks with Williams? - No. Signs with Lotus Renault for 2012

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Hologram777, Sep 19, 2011.

  1. Anghammarad

    Anghammarad Premium

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    I simply do not see a future WDC when I watch any of these. The only two of the current crop of up and coming drivers with talent on about the same level as Kimi are Nico and Kubica (provided he can come back to the same level.) Talent and speed is not what Kimi is lacking and he has proven himself as a champion. I'm quite certain that if the salary demand was the same from both drivers no team would choose Kobayashi over Räikkönen.
     
  2. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

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    Raikkonen is past it. You only had to see his final season at Ferrari to see that. That's why he left F1. He won't be back if he has any sense at all.
     
  3. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw Premium

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    You must be talking of the abysmal performance award?? Handed out by the people who don't like Kimi nor his fanbase.

    The wording doesn't really make a difference in the end. You say, "Raikkonen was visiibly bored with the sport halfway into the season" - Now wouldn't this quite clearly imply that he must have been bored with sport in the 2nd half of the season? (when he counterintuitively racked up the most points of anyone).

    Never looks good? I'm not worried about that, all I'm doing is bringing some balance and truth to both sides of the argument.

    Back to my point - I still don't see how Raikkonen's performance in 2009 was "abysmal", considering his points tally and the car he had to work with (3rd strongest car at best throughout the 09 season), and the fact that Ferrari were getting ready to ship him off to make way for Fernando.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2011
  4. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Two newbie drivers is what Williams need? :confused:

    Williams need to sort out their design and engineering team as well as their leadership. Word is that Sam Michael is/was overworked doing too many jobs at Williams and clearly the design team is not quite up to scratch.
    Money has never been a real problem - considering Force India, Sauber and Toro Rosso (and currently Renault too) are running similar budgets.

    There is nothing wrong with Rubens either. Maldonado isn't much special at the moment but he isn't terrible.

    I would have thought the last thing Williams need is to rely on pay driver rookies to drive their cars. Its only making their catch-22 even worse. They need at least one experienced driver they can rely on to score the crucial championship points when they are available - it means a lot in WCC money and in results terms. If Williams had had two rookies this year, they probably would only have Maldonado's 2 points which would put them dangerously close to being beaten by Lotus in the WCC. At least with Rubens' 4 points they are certainly 9th.

    As for Kimi. I'll believe it when I see it. I would welcome him back but only if he drives like he did pre-Ferrari. His Ferrari years were utterly disappointing and very boring..even if he did get the WDC with them, it wasn't as exciting or as fun to watch as his Sauber and McLaren years.
     
  5. Peter.

    Peter.

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    He was doing things with that F60 most people couldn't do. Plus, remember that Kimi was bought out of contract by Ferrari, he didn't leave Ferrari because he wanted to. He did get offers from McLaren and Red Bull though, but neither could meet the price he wanted to drive, and so, Kimi waved goodbye to F1.
     
  6. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    No, I mean there are no prizes for scoring the most points in the second half of the season. At all.
     
  7. ROAD_DOGG33J

    ROAD_DOGG33J Premium

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    If he really wanted to stay in F1, he would have taken an offer.
     
  8. zippy_the_cat

    zippy_the_cat

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    If Rubens is primarily on to help develop the car, and the car's been going backwards during his tenure, it's arguable that his development-side help isn't doing much good. Once you make that conclusion, he becomes replaceable. The question obviously is whether Raikkonen can contribute anything on that front or whether he brings enough to the table in other ways to improve on Rubens.
     
  9. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    ^ :lol: I finally see it. I think Williams needs a car that doesn't run as slow as the new three teams. Drivers are important but they can only perform as good as the tool given to them. We saw how good Rubens was last year, and hell the car was fast enough to get on pole with Hulkenburg. Then you have this years car that is like leaf fallen from the tree of the FW32. It's not the drivers who are crap and Williams, they just tried to be too radical and it blew up on them and still is.

    EDIT:
    Not sure if I can say it still is...Singapore wasn't that horrible.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2011
  10. RTSolvalou

    RTSolvalou (Banned)

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    Every team needs a somewhat plausible driver of experience or quality to use as a measuring stick for the car's ability, a team would be taking a huge risk by having a double rookie (or therabouts) lineup, however, this is working for Sauber, but not to say there isn't more to be coaxed from their car, And now Renault are doing it too, not that they have much of a choice.

    Kimi didn't end up at Renault this year because Eric could tell Kimi's heart wasn't really in it for his push for a seat, I doubt things have changed.
    Hope Rubens stays and gets to do his 20th year. (Supposedly Van Der Garde from GP2 has been linked with Williams, but Maldonado's seat is almost as safe as you can get)

    The next 2 off seasons should be interesting to say the least.
     
  11. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    Having Maldonado in the team does not automatically disqualify van der Garde. Unless his money is coming from Royal Dutch Shell ... which it isn't. So Williams could run Maldonado and van der Garde alongside one another if they wanted to.
     
  12. corporatesteve

    corporatesteve

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  13. daan

    daan Moderator

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    I like Rubens but, at this stage, I really don't see what he is adding. Maldonado has been outqualified 8-6 by Rubens, but at least Pastor has made it into Q3 3 times to Rubens' none. Rubens has outraced his rookie teammate as you would expect but not really by as much as his experience should allow him to. Also, don't forget Pastor qualified 8th and was running in 6th place at Monaco (the track that historically a driver can really make a difference at) before being rudely turfed off. Yes, Pastor has brought in a lot of money, but I think overall he's doing a better job than Rubens is. And how much of Pastor's sponsorship is Rubens taking out of the team? I think 2 young drivers, pushing each other, would be a better option right now.

    Lets face it, even if Williams had 0 points, they'll still beat "Caterham", Virgin and HRT.

    Wow! Brilliant. Now why haven't the rest of us taken that excellent point into consideration. :tup:
     
  14. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    Based on his results in the lower categories, Maldonado has a strange affinity for Monaco - even when he was with Trident in 2007.
     
  15. Ardius

    Ardius

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    I don't agree Pastor is doing better. He is doing as well as Rubens generally. But he has had some shocking races, perhaps to be expected for a rookie.
    Hulkenburg also matched Rubens nearer the end of the season but still Rubens had double the points.

    I'm pretty confident that if Williams keep the same driver line-up next year, Rubens would still be ahead in points at the end of 2012. Though certainly Pastor would be more consistent.

    Rubens brings to the table what any experienced, old hand brings to the table. Reliable and consistent results. Its why Lotus/Caterham/whatever hired Trulli and Kovalainen - because they will ensure the car finishes where it should especially in the crucial races where their faster competitors fail to finish. With rookies such as Maldonado, this is not always certain.

    Heidfeld is an example of when an experienced driver doesn't do his job. But I have seen no sign or reason for Barrichello to lose his seat. He has done his job. And if he is given a faster car, he will still deliver the results and push any driver Williams choose to put in the other seat.

    The only time Rubens isn't worth it for a team is when they are comfortably fighting for the championship and they want the fastest possible combination. But any other team certainly have a use for him, if not for results then purely to push their 2nd drivers, especially rookies. If a rookie matches or beats Rubens in their first season, surely this is the best measuring stick around for ability?
     
  16. daan

    daan Moderator

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    Except for when he was (allegedly) banned from driving there for life in 2005...
     
  17. zippy_the_cat

    zippy_the_cat

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    The flip side of this is the concept of what US baseball fans call "replacement-level talent" -- meaning veterans who performance-wise are really no better than a well-prepared rookie. The vet does in fact offer predictability, but at the trade-off of usually having to be paid a higher salary and of blocking the rise of younger talent.

    And just as in US baseball, teams can make a go of it with either strategy, the appropriate selection being a matter of finances. So the NY Yankees usually field a team of high-paid 30-somethings, while the Tampa Bay Rays make do with inexpensive 20-somethings. Both do quite well.

    To apply the analogy, the proven-veteran approach is likely the wrong one for a cash-poor team like Williams, unless they can get the veteran for a song (or the vet brings in a lot of cash). That means no drive for Rubens. Should mean none for Kimi too, unless, again, he's bringing sponsors or opening his own wallet.

    The replacement-level theory works in baseball because there's a wealth of statistics available in the sport to combine with "soft," anecdotal information in identifying youngsters ready for the step up. There is far more data available in F1 to use in driver evaluation, given the telemetry streams gathered by teams in the bigs and all the relevant feeder series. So teams should have no trouble identifying who's fast, who can adapt to changing race conditions, etc, assuming they're set up to do more than a mere engineering analysis.

    Perhaps just such an extra level of analysis is what's enabled Red Bull to climb so high in just a few short years. There was certainly nothing in Vettel's podium count at the lower levels, after all, to suggest he was the next big thing. But their all-in bet on his career has surely "made" the team.
     
  18. Seismica

    Seismica Premium

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    I know i know :p Just a poor attempt at a joke/dig at Raikkonen fans.
     
  19. Ardius

    Ardius

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    The point is that Williams are not that "cash-poor" and have a comparable budget and facilities to Sauber, Force India, Renault and Toro Rosso.

    There is also something to be said for having a driver on board who has been with several championship-winning teams and has a huge amount of experience setting up and developing cars. Whereas a rookie offers simply speed and potential.

    Sure, with a decent rookie they can probably safely fire Rubens and save a little bit of money. But is that really a risk worth taking when you are a team struggling for results? Williams have tried so many times already to land the next Hamilton rookie and they have had several great rookies in their cars the past few years. What if van de Garde or Grosjean or whomever turns into another Nakajima? Williams would be in a worse situation than they are now. And if they turn out to be the next Vettel or Hamilton, is it really going to secure them better results than what Rubens would/has managed? I'm not so sure.

    I personally think Rubens is far more valuable than his pay cheque and Williams will be making yet another mistake dropping him. Its been tough being a Williams fan this long and I hate to see the team going into a Tyrrell/Minardi period.
     
  20. daan

    daan Moderator

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    But you don't see any of those other teams using an experienced driver, and they're all doing better. So Williams' issue would seem to be that it is independent and not in the same bed as another team/manufacturer. If that is indeed their issue, then Rubens, or any other decent, experienced driver, would not seem to be a help in any way.

    "Caterham" have 2 experienced drivers as they are a completely new team and need them in order to say if they're going in the right direction or not. Williams have been around long enough to know if they're going the right way about it without needing an experienced driver to confirm or deny it.

    They just seem to have a slow car, so in my opinion they need 2 young drivers to get it further up the grid in order to get noticed more.

    :confused: Minardi were never good enough to get bad.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2011
  21. zippy_the_cat

    zippy_the_cat

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    Bingo.
     
  22. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Sure you do - have we forgotten already who has driven at each of these teams?
    None of them have pure-rookie line-ups, the only one that is closest to that is Sauber with Perez and Kobayashi, but even there they've got one driver who has a season's worth of experience.

    But Sutil certainly counts as "experienced". As does Heidfeld and Buemi. And before that we had De La Rosa, Kubica, Liuzzi, Fisichella and Bourdais at these teams.

    Its interesting that ever since the start of the season, Sauber have fallen backwards. Perhaps their inexperienced driver line-up isn't proving good for developing the car? Who knows is the answer really but it probably doesn't help. Likewise can be said in an opposite argument for Renault though - Heidfeld's experience hasn't really done anything for them.

    What I'm really saying is that I don't see the problem at Williams being the driver line-up. That has never been a problem at Williams. So I don't see any reason to fire/not renew Barrichello beyond money reasons. His results have been good enough to keep him. I certainly don't see it as being a great help for Williams to waste half of 2012 getting a rookie trained up again and currently they aren't producing good enough cars to hold onto any "future talents" that they manage to get in the seats. They've lost Rosberg and Hulkenburg, if they get van de Garde or a "real deal" like Grosjean or Vergne, how long before they too leave for better teams? Its not really helpful at all.
    No, the last thing Williams need to worry about is trying to get the next WDC rookie in their cars.

    And Minardi were a good team. No, they didn't win races or championships but they were a solid team in the late-80s and early 90s. People like to joke about them but they weren't "bad". Minardi were actually better than today's HRT though thats not to put HRT down as they are still a reasonably professional team compared to some from the past.
    Anyway, I wasn't referring to a decline so much with them, more that they became stuck at the back constantly changing out drivers chasing the money to develop the car with the occasional hot shot rookie put in 1 seat who then left for a better team.
    Williams should get the hot shot rookies but they need to keep them, not lose them to other teams. But it currently looks like they are becoming stuck in a Minardi zone.

    I don't even see the relevance of how old Williams is with regards to knowing how to develop a good car. It seems to me they haven't known how to develop a good car ever since Newey left. Suggests to me that any experienced, race-winning driver they can get their hands on would be hugely helpful to sort out their 12+ year stint of aerodynamic deficiency.
    Ironically (for this debate), Lotus have more staff with aerodynamic past success than Williams as they mostly come from Renault, Toyota, Red Bull and BAR/Honda. Although Williams do now have Coughlan - it remains to be seen how effective he will be.
    But this is all silly presumptions as we can't really judge and value the strength of a team like that. Its difficult to say how much direction a driver can really give in car design and the organisation of a team. Just as its difficult to say how effective the various staff are at each team and where its all going wrong. But one thing is for sure, Williams have not had the aerodynamics sorted for a long, long time and this is where I put the blame for their lack of success. Not Cosworth, not BMW, not Michelin or Montoya or Ralf or whoever. Changing the driver line-up isn't going to change the team's fortunes. Neither is switching to Renault power.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2011
  23. MarkWebber

    MarkWebber (Banned)

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    He may aswell be in talks with RB aswell, after what has been the most disastrous pitiful performance from Mark Webber this season.
     
  24. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    Except that Webber has already been confirmed at Red Bull for 2012.
     
  25. MarkWebber

    MarkWebber (Banned)

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    Yep, I know that, I was just having a go at Mark for letting his fans down this season. Without a doubt his only shocking season of his career, all others he's either outperformed or at least been on par with his team mate, oh well, sorry to sidetrack this thread though.
     
  26. Sach

    Sach

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    Webber's unperformed, but has also had some really tough luck this year.
     
  27. Tesla

    Tesla Premium

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    Not to mention his team mate is one of the quickest drivers on the grid.
     
  28. daan

    daan Moderator

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    But it won't exactly hinder them either. Hulkenberg and Maldonado would have been a better lineup than Barrichello/Maldonado.

    When I was referring to experinced drivers, you can get to the required level of experience after a few years. Barrichello's further extra extra extra experience is of no use.

    This week's Autosport has a big article on Kimi's possible move to Williams and they say that Williams are unhappy paying Barrichello, and that they're unhappy that he doesn't do as much PR work as they would like him to. Sam Michael moving on will also undermine Barrichello's position.
     
  29. Hun200kmh

    Hun200kmh

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  30. GOTMAXPOWER

    GOTMAXPOWER

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    Raikkonen isn't interested in rallying anymore it seems, he could've continued tomorrow under SupeRally but has gone home because he wouldn't have been able to get a good result with the penalties.