Knowing When To Shift
- Thread starter Stasibomb
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- breeminator
- breeminator
The highest power is what gives the greatest acceleration. Torque at the engine and torque at the wheels are not the same thing, because the gear ratio changes the relationship. So shifting gear to go from lower engine torque to higher engine torque doesn't necessarily increase torque at the wheels. It's best to just look at power, as more power must equal more acceleration (because the rate of input of kinetic energy into the car must be determined by power).
It's perhaps easier to understand if you think about cycling. You don't accelerate fast by using the longest gear and pressing with enormous force on the pedals. That gives you huge torque at the pedals, but pathetic torque at the wheels. You accelerate fastest by using a gear and cadence that allows you to output the most power. In a sprint finish in an elite cycling race, a sprinter might output around 1400W, and they'll be using a high cadence, say 120+ rpm. Their torque on the pedals is relatively low, pretty much any human can apply the torque they are using. What most humans can't do is combine that torque with the speed of movement to deliver that power.
To be honest probably heard peak power when I first heard it, I cant recall it was a while ago. I don't personally do it myself because I don't have the patience /will power to learn the peak power or torque range of every car I drive in a sim. But yeah.
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- 2,099
- Zimbabwe
Love that the game still only gives you a proper tach in bumper view and nowhere else and the cockpit gauges aren't updated once you install engine upgrades, so good luck eyeballing the right RPM.
For all the useless info they crammed into the HUD, you'd think they'd have room for a tach.
For all the useless info they crammed into the HUD, you'd think they'd have room for a tach.
Lion-Face
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- 1,467
- Invercargill
- Lion-Face
Generally just shift at redline. There are a few exceptions to the rule, the Ferrari F40 being one off the top of my head (it likes being short shifted about 500rpm before redline), but otherwise I have found the redline is often set as the optimal place to shift. If you are really going to use a car for hundred, or thousands, of KM's then you will learn it and you may find a slightly better point to shift. The Ferrari (again) 458 GR4 and GR3 cars both like being pushed out to the limiter but at the cost of higher fuel consumption, so something I only do when I require the best lap time out of them.
- 585
- Turkey
- talhaONE
Entirely depends on cars dyno Graph. For example Dodge Viper GTS 02 needs to shift early, if you go all the way the power reduces drastically. It Produces its max hp at 5000 Rpm and starts to drop slightly to 5500 and after that it drops drastically. So no point in pushing the car above 5700-ish.
- 38
- Australia
- STASIBOMB
I did some really simple testing in game on a random track to see what I could come up with regarding upshifting and it is helpful, but dyno graphs would be even more useful in finding more accurate rpm numbers to shift at. However, I still wouldn't know when to shift; would it be as soon as RPMs drop off as @talha1 suggested for the Dodge Viper?
I have three main questions from here:
1) Where do I generate dyno graphs in GT7?
2) How would I use the dyno graphs to get the ideal RPM shifts?
I made a quick under 2-minute video showing my current method for testing when to shift if anyone wants to give my noob self feedback on how to test more quickly/better?
I might sounds ignorant or clueless, but I'm looking to learn and thankyou guys already for all the feedback!
I have three main questions from here:
1) Where do I generate dyno graphs in GT7?
2) How would I use the dyno graphs to get the ideal RPM shifts?
I made a quick under 2-minute video showing my current method for testing when to shift if anyone wants to give my noob self feedback on how to test more quickly/better?
I might sounds ignorant or clueless, but I'm looking to learn and thankyou guys already for all the feedback!
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- 1,538
- NRW - GT
Attention... It is not always really late to shift gears, especially when you are in a BoP race, because in the BoP race the power is sometimes significantly reduced, which can also change the power curve. I'm not sure if you can see the reduced power curve in the tuning menu. But from practice ... the Gr.4 M4 is much better if it is switched very early at around 6000 to 6250 revolutions per minute.
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- 440
- Blayney
An example of a car without one... my GF old Punto (2002 model) didn't have one, to be fair though she was rarely trying to optimise her shift points...
In the power restrictor menu it shows your power and torque curves, unfortunately it is a very simplistic graph and doesn't give you any details on what rpm peak power or torque are made - the only reference is the rev limit.
- 2,336
- United Kingdom
- breeminator
- breeminator
When you adjust the power in the car settings, it shows a graph. You want to maximise the area under the curve, so if it's a peaky shape you shift at some point after the peak, so the power drops to the same power before the peak as you had after the peak. You have to use bumper cam to relate the red bar to rpm, then you can use any view and work to the red bar. The optimal shift point is different for each gear, because the rpm doesn't drop by the same amount for each shift. This is assuming the game correctly implements all this, of course. Most people, myself included, don't bother to work out the optimal shift point for each gear. I do generally look at the graph, estimate what a good rpm to shift at would be, and quickly use bumper cam to work out where that is on the red bar.
- 1,827
- Singapore
- XSquareStickIt
Not an easy question at all to answer. In real life, it's slightly easier to do as you can feel the acceleration g forces with your body and gauge when to shift from there. Absent that, it's just down to using one's eyes and ears to gauge. You can also get an idea of when to shift a car if you were to take a look at its power and torque curves in the ECU/ Power Limiter menus in the Setting Sheets of your cars. Generally speaking, you'd want to shift the car a little past the rpm when it makes peak power. The farther apart the gears are, the more you'd want to rev it past peak power.
(I know the R34 isn't a very good example but those are the screenshots I've lying around)
I'd recommend changing the distance units from miles to kilometres, as this changes speed measurement from mph to km/h. With a finer unit, one can more easily ascertain how much a car is accelerating throughout its rev range. From there, it's just a matter of trail, error, and observation.
In Gran Turismo Sport, there was a very useful fan site called GT Engine that details when race cars are best shifted in theory versus what got drivers the best results in practice. As of writing, their GT7 page is still being built and thus rather barebones, though the shift points data should still carry over into GT7 unchanged. Here's a link to their GTS Gr.3 page as an example:
As a general rule, I find that GTS (and GT7) tends to reward short shifting more than it perhaps should. Even Wankel Engines, notorious for being peaky in real life, tend to fare better in GTS with a bit of short shifting (787B, RX-Vision, FD RX-7).
(I know the R34 isn't a very good example but those are the screenshots I've lying around)
I'd recommend changing the distance units from miles to kilometres, as this changes speed measurement from mph to km/h. With a finer unit, one can more easily ascertain how much a car is accelerating throughout its rev range. From there, it's just a matter of trail, error, and observation.
In Gran Turismo Sport, there was a very useful fan site called GT Engine that details when race cars are best shifted in theory versus what got drivers the best results in practice. As of writing, their GT7 page is still being built and thus rather barebones, though the shift points data should still carry over into GT7 unchanged. Here's a link to their GTS Gr.3 page as an example:
As a general rule, I find that GTS (and GT7) tends to reward short shifting more than it perhaps should. Even Wankel Engines, notorious for being peaky in real life, tend to fare better in GTS with a bit of short shifting (787B, RX-Vision, FD RX-7).
- 38
- Australia
- STASIBOMB
Thanks all for the responses.
So in the ECU graph, is the white/gray line the power per gear, and blue is the last gear?Not an easy question at all to answer. In real life, it's slightly easier to do as you can feel the acceleration g forces with your body and gauge when to shift from there. Absent that, it's just down to using one's eyes and ears to gauge. You can also get an idea of when to shift a car if you were to take a look at its power and torque curves in the ECU/ Power Limiter menus in the Setting Sheets of your cars. Generally speaking, you'd want to shift the car a little past the rpm when it makes peak power. The farther apart the gears are, the more you'd want to rev it past peak power.
(I know the R34 isn't a very good example but those are the screenshots I've lying around)
I'd recommend changing the distance units from miles to kilometres, as this changes speed measurement from mph to km/h. With a finer unit, one can more easily ascertain how much a car is accelerating throughout its rev range. From there, it's just a matter of trail, error, and observation.
In Gran Turismo Sport, there was a very useful fan site called GT Engine that details when race cars are best shifted in theory versus what got drivers the best results in practice. As of writing, their GT7 page is still being built and thus rather barebones, though the shift points data should still carry over into GT7 unchanged. Here's a link to their GTS Gr.3 page as an example:
As a general rule, I find that GTS (and GT7) tends to reward short shifting more than it perhaps should. Even Wankel Engines, notorious for being peaky in real life, tend to fare better in GTS with a bit of short shifting (787B, RX-Vision, FD RX-7).
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- 1,827
- Singapore
- XSquareStickIt
The white line is the torque curve and the blue line is the power curve. I don't fully understand what's the difference between power and torque myself, but here's a video you might find helpful.
The curves you see are produced by the engine before going through the gearbox and the wheels. If we had a wheel torque graph, we wouldn't be having this conversation, as we will know exactly when to shift! That's what the complicated graphs on GT Engine are.
- 1,538
- NRW - GT
Since I drove a really great diesel for a while (I had to commute far every day and drove so much too) and otherwise only a petrol engine, my opinion is different today than it used to be.
I used to always say: "Power (KW/PS) cannot be replaced by anything other than even more power (KW/PS)... then came the diesel (3L BMW;D) and since then I've been saying: "Power (KW /PS) is very easy to replace, you just need enough TORQUE ;D" ( OK and a high gear ratio... )
I used to always say: "Power (KW/PS) cannot be replaced by anything other than even more power (KW/PS)... then came the diesel (3L BMW;D) and since then I've been saying: "Power (KW /PS) is very easy to replace, you just need enough TORQUE ;D" ( OK and a high gear ratio... )
- 670
- London
- potatoe506
Yep doesn't show what rpm peak figures are produced at, but if you go into the garage on the main screen which shows various angles of your car, on the left hand side it will actually show you peak power@rpm figures.
You want to shift so that as much of your next gear is spent in a higher power range. Common sense might say that you should shift the moment your car is past peak power, because after that the power is only going down as you rev more and more. But the most important detail is how many revs is your car going to have once you've changed gears?
Some cars have excellent power bands like that R34 GTR that's been posted above, you can see that it plateaus before you're even halfway through the rev range right up to the peak, at which point you can see it very quickly drops off. Because of this you should be shifting as soon as peak power has been reached. I can't see in the screenshot but I assume a power restrictor has been used to help achieve this, using a power restrictor lowers peak power significantly more than it lowers power produced elsewhere in the powerband, so you end up with a nice healthy power band like the one seen in that screenshot.
Other cars, especially NA engine ones, will have power bands that are more similar in shape to the one above. You can see that power drops off after the peak as quickly as it rises before the peak. As I said, common sense might be to shift gears once peak has been produced, because after that power is only going down. But let's say that your next gear will put you 3000rpm down the rev range, you can see that if you shifted at 6000rpm you would drop down to 3000rpm and be producing around 70HP. This is obviously much lower than the power being produced at the rev limit of 7000rpm, 140HP. And if you shift at 7000rpm, you will drop to 4000rpm where you will be producing 100HP, which again is much higher than the 70HP at 3000rpm. Using this information, we can conclude that the optimum time to change gears for the above power range is at the limit of 7000rpm. As a reminder, this is very different to the R32 GTR which you should be shifting at what appears to be around 1500rpm sooner than the rev limit.
Once you have worked out when you should be shifting gears via the rev range, take your car to track in the bumper view and work out what that number of revs looks like on the shift indicator (that bar that fills up and starts flashing once you're at the rev limit). Once you've worked that out you're good to go and should now be able to consistently shift gears at the optimum time, with whatever view you use.
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- 3
- United States
- 722
- United Kingdom
So guys... specifically to those in the know, taking the following example:
This Gr.4 Supra makes 342BHP at 5,000RPM right (as per)?
On that basis, this is 5,000RPM in game:
The rev counter above the speedometer doesn't even fill a little (presumably that is 5000 to 7000 RPM)
Should I be shifting up at this point??!?!? Despite not wringing the last 2,000RPM out of the engine?
And if so, am I maximising "power" by shifting up without engaging the upper 2,000RPM?
So like this, in chase view (which is what I use) - it feels like I'm short-shifting rather than utilising peak power:
This Gr.4 Supra makes 342BHP at 5,000RPM right (as per)?
On that basis, this is 5,000RPM in game:
The rev counter above the speedometer doesn't even fill a little (presumably that is 5000 to 7000 RPM)
Should I be shifting up at this point??!?!? Despite not wringing the last 2,000RPM out of the engine?
And if so, am I maximising "power" by shifting up without engaging the upper 2,000RPM?
So like this, in chase view (which is what I use) - it feels like I'm short-shifting rather than utilising peak power:
- 110
- Taiwan
Go to Car Settings, enter ECU or Power Restrictor and look that power curve.
My number aren't exactly same as yours but the nearest one is Normal turbo, and on my graph it's an (almost) flat blue line over 5,800 rpm, so that means you can use all the RPMs and the acceleration won't be worse.
If the line drops sharply after max RPM, then you now have to consider shifting early.
But ... perhaps not shifting AT the max power RPM, because after you shift up, engine RPM will drop to a lower value, you don't want power output at that RPM (much) lower than when you shifting, so it could probably better to shift a little after peak RPM.
For example in this configuration of GR Supra Race Car '19 the power drop after peak is negligible, if I shift up at (red-lining) 6500 rpm I'll drop to 4500~5000 RPM, which is kind of OK that I won't lose too much power.
This is another example from Aston Martin DP-100 where max power at 6500 RPM. If I shift exactly at 6500 RPM I'll go to 4750~5500 RPM and would still get good power (perhaps shifting a little later is still fine). But if I go all the way to 8500 RPM then after shifting up I'll down to 6750~7500 RPM where the power output is nowhere near it's peak.
Too bad GT7 didn't have finer ticks on these graph, you have to do some mental arithmetic to at least get the value at 1/2, 3/4 mark,
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- 3,053
- England
- kilesa4568
You can hear the drop off in power so I just use that point to shift. I'll have a look at the torque graph first, though.
- 722
- United Kingdom
Thanks friend. Amazing explanation
Thanks for taking the time to take pictures and make examples.
I think I've got it and yes, I should be taking Supra to the redline; conversely the Aston Martin exame is the perfect opposite example.
Thanks again.
- 293
- Oxfordshire
- Bread_45
Thanks for sharing the link, what a beautiful website. Unless someone found a way to get raw data from the game, those dyno curves will have to have been scanned from game screenshots into graphing software or measured on screen or paper by hand. Lots of effort either way, and the result looks really professional.Not an easy question at all to answer. In real life, it's slightly easier to do as you can feel the acceleration g forces with your body and gauge when to shift from there. Absent that, it's just down to using one's eyes and ears to gauge. You can also get an idea of when to shift a car if you were to take a look at its power and torque curves in the ECU/ Power Limiter menus in the Setting Sheets of your cars. Generally speaking, you'd want to shift the car a little past the rpm when it makes peak power. The farther apart the gears are, the more you'd want to rev it past peak power.
(I know the R34 isn't a very good example but those are the screenshots I've lying around)
I'd recommend changing the distance units from miles to kilometres, as this changes speed measurement from mph to km/h. With a finer unit, one can more easily ascertain how much a car is accelerating throughout its rev range. From there, it's just a matter of trail, error, and observation.
In Gran Turismo Sport, there was a very useful fan site called GT Engine that details when race cars are best shifted in theory versus what got drivers the best results in practice. As of writing, their GT7 page is still being built and thus rather barebones, though the shift points data should still carry over into GT7 unchanged. Here's a link to their GTS Gr.3 page as an example:
As a general rule, I find that GTS (and GT7) tends to reward short shifting more than it perhaps should. Even Wankel Engines, notorious for being peaky in real life, tend to fare better in GTS with a bit of short shifting (787B, RX-Vision, FD RX-7).
- 2,747
- Germany
Very good explanation there.
But I think there is actual an answer to that question ingame. Didnt look at a whole bunch of cars right now, but the handful I picked seemed to fit into the pattern.
Again on that car:
5800 is just peak power, but as already pointed out the drop isnt that big
Check manual transmission settings: 6200 rpm
see power graph:
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