Lack of American cars

[xNEVER-ONEx]

Sorry, but this is really baffling. So, you're claiming that Italy is not as substantial as the USA, having Ferrari, Lamborghini and Zonda? Granted, they may not sell many cars, but those cars are drem cars. And that's pure racing heritage right there.

UK? Pretty much the same. I think I don't actually have to convince anyone of Lotus' racing heritage. Or of Aston Martins' status as a manufacturer of dream cars, pretty much the same goes for Jaguar.

France, well, last time I checked, Citroen is pretty involved in Rallysports, Bugatti should by now be known for the Veyron, at least and Renault is pretty big in Formula sports, both in F1 and their own Formula Renault. And from what I hear, Peugot does pretty well at Le Mans.

I won't start bashing American cars, but really, lumping all European nations into one and comparing the USA to that instead of comparing it to the individual countries is just mindboggling to me.

Not as substantial, my butt.

/edit:
Oh, yeah, if we actually do count all cars that have that little American flag to them, including Infiniti and cars tuned by American companies, the US would be pretty close to having half as many cars as Europe.

So how are we measuring this? By dream cars? By manufacturer influence? I would love more dream cars, but then you get people saying GT5 is about all kinds of cars. Not to mention half the European brands are not even truly European anymore. They are owned my foreign companies. Any way you cut it, I think the amount of European premium cars is acceptable, amount of Japanese is more than acceptable, but can't help but wonder why some wonderful new American machines were left out.

Anyways, I'm not saying have less European cars, all I'm saying was there should have been more American cars.

 

[Dapper]

17 is still more than France or the United Kingdom have in the game. Furthermore, it'd be 18, as you'd have to count the NASCAR stock cars at least once. And, seriously, do you think that one country, the United States of America, should have as many cars as all of the European country that you're tallying here? Flash news, there is no country called 'Europe', so Europe having more cars in the game than America is actually perfectly fair and fine, as far as I am concerned. In fact, you're looking at four European countries and the USA, so I guess the USA should be outnumbered four to one. And that's actually pretty close. 18x4=72 vs. 73 cars from four European countries.

Now, really, that is a bit much, isn't it? I mean, I get that there's a different philosophy between American cars and European cars. But just because there are two mentalities at work here doesn't mean the cars should be devided evenly among those mentalities.

But if this is what the so-called lack of American cars is supposed to be, then sorry, I really can't get my head around it.

So America is equal to France, UK, Germany and Italy? It what way are any of them equal? America dominates those countries in every facet concerning a country as a whole. Not to mention America is made up of people from those countries, so really, America can't be over represented because it would really be an extension of representation of the people from the other countries it is made up of.

 

[ADR_PRICE]

You know what i think? I think PD should come out with car packs for all the countries that way people cant complain about not having enough of their cars, well maybe Japan shouldnt get one cause they've only got 43 skylines lol. But the game already has over 1k cars what is there to complain about?

 

[Exorcet]

The vast majority of American cars are standard, but IMO America should have at least half as many cars as all of Europe. I mean apart from Germany, the vast majority of Europe has been no where near as substantial in automotive as the Americans. Also, if you look at it in terms of populations represented, Europe is what, 700 mil people, America alone is 330 million. I think 2:1 should have been good, not 4:1, but it is what it is.

In industrial terms, I agree I guess. But some of the European cars are pretty nice. I'd say both sides are fairly even. I don't think population should have anything to do about it. It's about the quality of the cars, but then again, that's completely subjective.

You know what i think? I think PD should come out with car packs for all the countries that way people cant complain about not having enough of their cars, well maybe Japan shouldnt get one cause they've only got 43 skylines lol. But the game already has over 1k cars what is there to complain about?

Quantity isn't quality. Like I said, Forza 3 has less cars, but it doesn't feel that way. I think PD messed up a little bit, mostly because of the Japanese bias. A good deal of different cars are really only different models and options. Even if they did this for every country, I'd prefer that the cars were all actually different.

I think out of all the GT games, GT2 felt the most diverse.

 

[Earth]

17 is still more than France or the United Kingdom have in the game. Furthermore, it'd be 18, as you'd have to count the NASCAR stock cars at least once. And, seriously, do you think that one country, the United States of America, should have as many cars as all of the European country that you're tallying here? Flash news, there is no country called 'Europe', so Europe having more cars in the game than America is actually perfectly fair and fine, as far as I am concerned. In fact, you're looking at four European countries and the USA, so I guess the USA should be outnumbered four to one. And that's actually pretty close. 18x4=72 vs. 73 cars from four European countries.

Now, really, that is a bit much, isn't it? I mean, I get that there's a different philosophy between American cars and European cars. But just because there are two mentalities at work here doesn't mean the cars should be devided evenly among those mentalities.

But if this is what the so-called lack of American cars is supposed to be, then sorry, I really can't get my head around it.

Top 5 automakers.

1. Toyota - Japanese
2. GM - American
3. Volkswagen - German
4. Ford - American
5. Hyundai/Kia - Korean

UK automakers dont even make the top 20. France is at #6 and #11, but let me know when Renault or Peugeot make anything that can challenge a ZR1, a GT, or Viper and is sold to the public

I think its very reasonable to expect American cars to get at least half as many premiums as European ones, at the very worst 1/3 because there are more European race cars because racing is much bigger over there then in the US

 

[GT_Prologue5]

The thing isn't really about the lack of American cars I suppose, but of how the abundance of Skyline's and NSX's could have been cars from Europe and America. Anyone who says that the U.S. hasn't been a power of the auto world is wrong. The first time a car was in Japan, they were probably stunned at how it worked. Surely, America's cars did start lacking around the 80's, but that doesn't matter on the history and the effect they've had. Most European manufacturers are owned by others. Lotus is owned by Malaysia's Proton, MINI is owned by BMW, Porsche, VW, Bentley, etc. are owned by VAG, so Europe is just a mash of confusion.

Look at America. GM owns Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, former Saturn, Saab, Hummer, etc. Ford is independent as possible (and you can't say they aren't global, the Fiesta and Focus are fantastic global machines) only Chrysler succumbed to Euro ownership. That says something. I just know PD could've spent more time on expanding Europe and North America's vehicle lineup instead of copy and pasting Japanese cars. Hell, give me more SEAT's and Skoda's. Give me some Canadian or Mexican cars. Hell, are there any South American manufacturers? Come on PD.

 

[Rzeractor]

Live axle doesn't mean squat anymore really. Ford has it well figured out.

Debatable, every single car review I've read about that Shelby mentions this being its pitfall

 

[BigYoSpeck]

Top 5 automakers.

1. Toyota - Japanese
2. GM - American
3. Volkswagen - German
4. Ford - American
5. Hyundai/Kia - Korean

UK automakers dont even make the top 20. France is at #6 and #11, but let me know when Renault or Peugeot make anything that can challenge a ZR1, a GT, or Viper and is sold to the public

I think its very reasonable to expect American cars to get at least half as many premiums as European ones, at the very worst 1/3 because there are more European race cars because racing is much bigger over there then in the US

Renault and Peugeot may not make anything that competes with a Viper, but then no American car company makes anything that competes with a Clio V6 or a Pug GTI.

Those cars are included to give a good spread of the varied types drivers cars. America only produce muscle cars that are of interest to car nuts. And there are what, 15 out of 200? That's a sizeable percentage to dedicate to one type of car. There are probably only that number of hot hatches in it.

This game isn't a proportional representation, it's a homage to cars the PD team love so don't let it hurt your national pride because they didn't sit and calculate a population/customer based ratio of car manufacturers with relation to geographic locale.

 

[Hemily]

Top 5 automakers.

1. Toyota - Japanese
2. GM - American
3. Volkswagen - German
4. Ford - American
5. Hyundai/Kia - Korean

UK automakers dont even make the top 20. France is at #6 and #11, but let me know when Renault or Peugeot make anything that can challenge a ZR1, a GT, or Viper and is sold to the public

I think its very reasonable to expect American cars to get at least half as many premiums as European ones, at the very worst 1/3 because there are more European race cars because racing is much bigger over there then in the US

2. GM, this includes Opel, which a lot of chevrolet cars are based on, like the Aveo, it's a rebadged Corsa pretty much, a lot of Euro influence in GM, and Asian, with Daewoo making the Matiz.


4. Ford... is not only American, have you forgotten the English and German parts? the ones behind the Mondeo, Focus, Ka, Fiesta, Puma, Transit, Escort.. and so forth, and Volvo helped improve the sporty Fords with the 5cyl engine, Ford is also part of european racing history, with the RS200, Escort MK1 and MK2 and the Sierra Cosworth.
Even in Australia, Ford is the brand that is batteling Holden (which is GM).
i kinda think of Ford as a International brand, that originated in the US.
And also Ford dabbles in asian cars, owning Mazda, the Ford Probe had a Mazda engine.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

2. GM, this includes Opel, which a lot of chevrolet cars are based on, like the Aveo, it's a rebadged Corsa pretty much, a lot of Euro influence in GM, and Asian, with Daewoo making the Matiz.


4. Ford... is not only American, have you forgotten the English and German parts? the ones behind the Mondeo, Focus, Ka, Fiesta, Puma, Transit, Escort.. and so forth, and Volvo helped improve the sporty Fords with the 5cyl engine, Ford is also part of european racing history, with the RS200, Escort MK1 and MK2 and the Sierra Cosworth.
Even in Australia, Ford is the brand that is batteling Holden (which is GM).
i kinda think of Ford as a International brand, that originated in the US.
And also Ford dabbles in asian cars, owning Mazda, the Ford Probe had a Mazda engine.

Shhhhh! Don't mention that some of the already few US cars aren't really US cars like the Mazda 3 based, German built, Swedish engined Focus, it will just make matters worse

 

[finnracer]

Fords euro cars are way too good to be considered American!! And I can back this up as for their global models they have chosen the European Fiesta, Focus and eventually; Mondeo rather than their American counterparts which will gradually be phased out.

 

[Luminis]

So how are we measuring this? By dream cars? By manufacturer influence? I would love more dream cars, but then you get people saying GT5 is about all kinds of cars. Not to mention half the European brands are not even truly European anymore. They are owned my foreign companies. Any way you cut it, I think the amount of European premium cars is acceptable, amount of Japanese is more than acceptable, but can't help but wonder why some wonderful new American machines were left out.

Anyways, I'm not saying have less European cars, all I'm saying was there should have been more American cars.

Well, we could go by cars sold, which would mean we'd be racing with mostly econoboxes

There are just as many European cars missing as American cars, so I kinda don't get that point. Besides, I said it before and I'll say it again, if I'm just going to count all American cars in the game, with no "Oh, you can't count this because of [reason]", than we're somewhere around 33 american cars - the 29 menttioned earlier plus two Infinitis, the High End Performance G37 and the AEM S2000, unless I forgot something.

So it's 33 cars with an American flag versus, what, 75 cars with a European flag? Doesn't sound too shabby, does it?

Yeah, I know, I know, Infiniti this, NASCAR clones that, whatever. I guess American companies aren't American by default, either

So America is equal to France, UK, Germany and Italy? It what way are any of them equal? America dominates those countries in every facet concerning a country as a whole. Not to mention America is made up of people from those countries, so really, America can't be over represented because it would really be an extension of representation of the people from the other countries it is made up of.

By your logic, European cars also represent America as they're from the cultures that America consists of. Hence, America can't be underrepresented, either.

But I'm kinda amused by that arrogant attitude. Someone said it before on this threat, some Americans seem to think that they've got some prerogative to have the game revolve around them

I think its very reasonable to expect American cars to get at least half as many premiums as European ones, at the very worst 1/3 because there are more European race cars because racing is much bigger over there then in the US

You know, something that just sprang to my mind... I like to keep an eye out for Time Attack as I think it quite telling to see what privateers use as cars. Not only is racing not as popular in the US, as you just said, but from what I could gather looking at that kind of racing, I don't see a lot of American cars there. BMWs, Lotuses, a lot of Japanese cars and what not, but Time Attack cars based on American cars? I can't even remember seeing a single one.
While this, of course, isn't a very accurate representation of what Americanc ars can do or can't do, but I do think it's kinda telling what privateers tend to go for when it comes to preparing street cars for racing, which is basically what we're doing in Gran Turismo.

Besides, top cars makers, yeah, that's nice and all. Which American cars has caused people to drool as much as a 458 Italia? Performance doesn't even matter in this case. Because, what makes those top cars makers the top isn't the amount of desirable cars they produce, but the amount of cars they sell - which are, for the most part, the little econoboxes.
Simply put, (almost) every Aston Martin or Ferrari is desirable car, can the same be said for GM's cars?


And one more thing: In my opinion, the lack of Porsche is a more severe problem than anything American that could ever be named here.

 

[ItsHim]

Just this bit of political rant: I'd like to remind some of you of what John Connally said in 1971 "The Dollar is our currency, but your problem."

So with all due respect I'd like to remind a part of the US American population that for 40 years the rest of the world is paying their share to ensure the US economy keeps going (and growing). This is not set in stone and I'm curious to see how the Chinese deal the cards in 20 years from now on.

Back on topic, there are only a handful of US American cars I really long for, the latest Corvette, the Viper and maybe the Ford GT (both the classic and the latest model). The most important US based modell ever, the Ford Model T, is sadly missing from GT.

Kaz said they include cars they want, cars that are relevant in motoring history and cars that consumers want.

So I don't feel anything is lacking in GT5, it's fairly represented because there are neither that many relevant US cars nor are there that many consumers buying GT compared to the rest of the world.

 

[prymet1me]

This thread and the country bashing is still entertaining, god I love the car selection in Forza. Hello Aston Martin One 77 and hello Shelby Ultimate Aero.

I will just stick to my earlier statement that this game needs less Japanese boxes with 30 hp.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

This thread and the country bashing is still entertaining, god I love the car selection in Forza. Hello Aston Martin One 77 and hello Shelby Ultimate Aero.

I will just stick to my earlier statement that this game needs less Japanese boxes with 30 hp.

I do look at the Forza roster and think it almost looks like a GT wish list

But then I think no it's fine! I've got a perfectly modelled VW Campervan and Prius

 

[Exorcet]

Besides, top cars makers, yeah, that's nice and all. Which American cars has caused people to drool as much as a 458 Italia?

I could ask the reverse. It's an opinion thing.

Give me an Italia, I'd drive it a couple of times to take advantage of the opportunity, and then sell it for something better.

Simply put, (almost) every Aston Martin or Ferrari is desirable car, can the same be said for GM's cars?

Ferrari and Aston don't also make mass produced cars to generate profits. The high end GM cars I like every bit as much as what Europe turns out. Though I honestly hate that some of the US attitudes towards cars. No one should be bragging about how their car is the greatest bang for the buck.

In all honestly, I probably see Alfa, Peugeot, others, the same way you see GM. They're dull with the exception of some random good cars thrown into the mix from time to time. This is especially true if we look at modern line ups. In the past, they had better days.

One last thing [not at you who I quoted, but in general], when I see rebuttals about how cars need a world presence to be accepted in GT, recall that Europe is not the world. Just because it's not popular Europe doesn't mean it's not relevant.


I guess I'll just repeat what I started with in this thread. There is no lack of cars really, just an overabundance of cars [Japan].

 

[RobGT81]

Nevermind Yank Tanks, the Mini should be British! I dont care when BMW took over!

 

[boomstick]

Its simple, Europeans want the cars they know and love and Americans want the cars they know and love. There is nothing wrong with that Most of these "wants" are the top tier of each respective culture. Fortunatly each culture has its own ideas of what the top tier should be. Please stop calling each countrys cars rubish or junk! Respect each others automotive heritage for what they are and not what you and your country want them to be and maybe we can all expand our horizons. Yeah we get it, a European super car will waste a strictly american muscle car on a road course. But, and this is FACT, if you where in a(insert fav non american super car)buzzing down a straight approaching 200mph and ahead of you is John Force in his mustang sitting still...just as you pass him his light turns green...he will overtake you you in less than 50meters. Not only will he pass you he will pass you doing 100+mph fast than you. Its apples and oranges people. Respect each others heritage for what they have accomplished, not for how much more your culture has accomplished.

 

[OwensRacing]

Who cares what brand name or label is on the car. Its all about performance.

How about they select cars based on performance. If a car cost 100K and is faster then one 30K, I want the fast one. hahahahaha

 

[BigYoSpeck]

Its simple, Europeans want the cars they know and love and Americans want the cars they know and love. There is nothing wrong with that Most of these "wants" are the top tier of each respective culture. Fortunatly each culture has its own ideas of what the top tier should be. Please stop calling each countrys cars rubish or junk! Respect each others automotive heritage for what they are and not what you and your country want them to be and maybe we can all expand our horizons. Yeah we get it, a European super car will waste a strictly american muscle car on a road course. But, and this is FACT, if you where in a(insert fav non american super car)buzzing down a straight approaching 200mph and ahead of you is John Force in his mustang sitting still...just as you pass him his light turns green...he will overtake you you in less than 50meters. Not only will he pass you he will pass you doing 100+mph fast than you. Its apples and oranges people. Respect each others heritage for what they have accomplished, not for how much more your culture has accomplished.

And Andy Green would pass him doing another 4 ton in the Thrust SSC

To be fair I think if you look at car types objectively it's a pretty fair spread. You do mostly get muscle cars from the US, and there are a decent chunk of them in the game. Japan pretty much only does mid range sports cars, and there aren't as many of them in the game as it seems, I mean 5 premium Nissans are basically the same GTR. And then from Europe you have the hot hatches, super cars, sport saloon and normal cars, 4 different type of car which account for the larger representation from Europe.

 

[EmptyBox]

I think there is one thing we can all agree on - more of the Classic American cars need to be converted to Premium. Seriously, if you object to V8s and a complete disregard for handling at the upside of schmokey burnouts, you might be a woman.

And the 458 is easily the one and only Ferrari I would not like to drive. It's a disgrace how fugly that thing is. To think Ferrari used to build beautiful cars.....

 

[RobGT81]

I think there is one thing we can all agree on - more of the Classic American cars need to be converted to Premium. Seriously, if you object to V8s and a complete disregard for handling at the upside of schmokey burnouts, you might be a woman.

And the 458 is easily the one and only Ferrari I would not like to drive. It's a disgrace how fugly that thing is. To think Ferrari used to build beautiful cars.....

458 is stunning to look at, best looking Ferrari for years

 

[Andrews]

I could ask the reverse. It's an opinion thing.

Give me an Italia, I'd drive it a couple of times to take advantage of the opportunity, and then sell it for something better.


Ferrari and Aston don't also make mass produced cars to generate profits. The high end GM cars I like every bit as much as what Europe turns out. Though I honestly hate that some of the US attitudes towards cars. No one should be bragging about how their car is the greatest bang for the buck.

In all honestly, I probably see Alfa, Peugeot, others, the same way you see GM. They're dull with the exception of some random good cars thrown into the mix from time to time. This is especially true if we look at modern line ups. In the past, they had better days.

One last thing [not at you who I quoted, but in general], when I see rebuttals about how cars need a world presence to be accepted in GT, recall that Europe is not the world. Just because it's not popular Europe doesn't mean it's not relevant.


I guess I'll just repeat what I started with in this thread. There is no lack of cars really, just an overabundance of cars [Japan].

Exactly, you said it perfectly. I guess when an American states that he or she would love to see more American cars in GT5, the Europeans consider it a crime.

GM sold 6.5 million(wiki) vehicles in 2009, Ferrari only sold 6,250(wiki). Do you really expect the Corvette, Camaro or and GM car to be on par with the Ferrari 458? It's like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[shu5892001]

we get a lot of NASCARs... that's American.... lol

 

[Goudvis]

I think there is one thing we can all agree on - more of the Classic American cars need to be converted to Premium. Seriously, if you object to V8s and a complete disregard for handling at the upside of schmokey burnouts, you might be a woman.

And the 458 is easily the one and only Ferrari I would not like to drive. It's a disgrace how fugly that thing is. To think Ferrari used to build beautiful cars.....

I can't believe you just said that.

 

[McLaren]

Simply put, (almost) every Aston Martin or Ferrari is desirable car, can the same be said for GM's cars?

C'mon mate, you know that's not a valid comparison. 2 of those manufacturers cater to the wealthy class, and with those kind of customers, you have to sell desired products; they're usually the only people that can afford them.

The other caters cars from $20K to $120K. That kind of range is huge with most of its fleet below $45,000. Thus, the common man will be usually be buying the cars for more than just desirability.

Most of these $100,000+ are only desirable to those who can not own them, anyways, hence part of the reason as to why they are desirable in the first place.

 

[prymet1me]

we get a lot of NASCARs... that's American.... lol

Now that is something they could have scrapped to work on something else.

 

[Goudvis]

C'mon mate, you know that's not a valid comparison. 2 of those manufacturers cater to the wealthy class, and with those kind of customers, you have to sell desired products; they're usually the only people that can afford them.

The other caters cars from $20K to $120K. That kind of range is huge with most of its fleet below $45,000. Thus, the common man will be usually be buying the cars for more than just desirability.

Most of these $100,000+ are only desirable to those who can not own them, anyways, hence part of the reason as to why they are desirable in the first place.

You do have a point.

If we want to compare we should leave out supercars. Because obviously Ferrari, Lamborghini, Lotus, Aston Martin, Jaguar and other supercar manufactures with their main models have to be present, regardless of where they come from.

It's possible that the US didn't get as much "mass production cars" as Europe and certainly Japan. In my opinion these cars aren't really essential, but I understand if people think that's important.

 

[Luminis]

C'mon mate, you know that's not a valid comparison. 2 of those manufacturers cater to the wealthy class, and with those kind of customers, you have to sell desired products; they're usually the only people that can afford them.

The other caters cars from $20K to $120K. That kind of range is huge with most of its fleet below $45,000. Thus, the common man will be usually be buying the cars for more than just desirability.

Most of these $100,000+ are only desirable to those who can not own them, anyways, hence part of the reason as to why they are desirable in the first place.

Uhm, yeah, pretty much. That's why I don't think going by 'top car maker' is a valid arguement as it has no bearing on whether the cars are very desirable or not. And most of those manufacturers that cater to the wealthy happen to be European, which kinda furthers that point.

Just to emphasise on this, I don't question that there are ncie Americanc ars to be added, but I don't think the balance between European and American cars if off (by a lot) at the moment. There'S just too much JDM stuff (which kinda doesn't bother me as I like JDM stuff ).

I could ask the reverse. It's an opinion thing.

Give me an Italia, I'd drive it a couple of times to take advantage of the opportunity, and then sell it for something better.

I'm the same, actually. Why buy one dream car if I can have two or three for the same price?

Ferrari and Aston don't also make mass produced cars to generate profits. The high end GM cars I like every bit as much as what Europe turns out. Though I honestly hate that some of the US attitudes towards cars. No one should be bragging about how their car is the greatest bang for the buck.

In all honestly, I probably see Alfa, Peugeot, others, the same way you see GM. They're dull with the exception of some random good cars thrown into the mix from time to time. This is especially true if we look at modern line ups. In the past, they had better days.

Uhm, yeah, I guess it's true that it depends on your point of view. That's why I cant really understand people who demand America to have a lot more cars than those from European countries - and compare America to all those European countries combined.

One last thing [not at you who I quoted, but in general], when I see rebuttals about how cars need a world presence to be accepted in GT, recall that Europe is not the world. Just because it's not popular Europe doesn't mean it's not relevant.

While I agree with you, Europe is a bigger market for GT than the US, os that would explain a bias towards Europe, if there was one. And I don't think there is one at the moment.

I guess I'll just repeat what I started with in this thread. There is no lack of cars really, just an overabundance of cars [Japan].

Agreed.

 

[EmptyBox]

I can't believe you just said that.

It's true though. The 430 looked miles better. The 458 looks like a failed Lamborghini crossbred abortion. And the 430 wasn't even that great looking of a car compared to most of Ferrari's backlog. It's a Ferrari without curves, it looks like someone got crazy with a chisel and a chunk of clay and called it "styling".

The 550 may just be the last good looking Ferrari right now IMHO. The California is pretty sweet looking though.