learned to drive a stick today

[Joey D]

just a joke. but with this fuel crisis going on in america, i dont see why people aren't jumping through rings to get a manual car

Because they hardly get better mileage now, back in the days when a manual offered you another gear ya it was better but a lot of autos now give you 5 or 6 gears. But just an example a Chevy Cobalt with the 2.4 in it gets:

5-speed manual transmission 22/32
4-speed automatic transmission 22/31

Fuel economy is more about how you drive your car, not want changes the gears. You just have to drive both differently.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

if it doesn't promote laziness of learning how to operate a clutch or bothering to, then why is it so common in america and nowhere else

Pffft...laziness

Don't drive a car, walk or ride a bike instead.

 

[mustangGT90210]

Pffft...laziness

Don't drive a car, walk or ride a bike instead.

Greenie!!

 

[gibson]

Greenie!!

PINKIE!!

 

[nissan tuner]

Because they hardly get better mileage now, back in the days when a manual offered you another gear ya it was better but a lot of autos now give you 5 or 6 gears. But just an example a Chevy Cobalt with the 2.4 in it gets:

5-speed manual transmission 22/32
4-speed automatic transmission 22/31

Fuel economy is more about how you drive your car, not want changes the gears. You just have to drive both differently.

i disagree with you on that. you can rev a stick much lower on the highways than a 4 speed auto

 

[The Porko]

Every car I've owned has been stick, its been a requirement, and it will continue to be one. I realize that I'm in a growing minority, and of course, I realize that fewer companies are offering them in their cars... But I don't care.

A few points...

- Bitching about using the clutch in heavy traffic is a cop-out. You don't have to hold it in gear the entire time, there are other ways of doing it right. Sure, the clutch can be a bit heavy in a car like a Mustang or whatever, but meh... Most cars it won't be bad.

- Complaints over shift speed are rather silly as well. Sure, I'm not going to argue over the points on a drag strip, but around the track and in any other performance application, 99% of the time you're going to see the stick being the better option with a driver who knows what he/she is doing.

...And while I certainly realize that technology has caught up with automatics in some applications (Jaguar, Mercedes, others come to mind), it will be the F1/DSG/PDK setups that eventually replace them. All of which technically are manual gearboxes...

- Lets face facts: Automatics are good at getting people going, for people who don't care about how they're getting from point A to point B. Automatics are good at making people think they're in control of the gearbox by putting flappy paddles on the side, buttons on the wheel, or a slot on the console. But you know what? The transmission still thinks it knows better (most of the time)...

===

I'm in a dying breed. I know it. But at the same time, I see a lot of hope when a bunch of kids I know want to learn how to drive stick, or for that matter, make the choice to start with their first car.

Its really quite simple: Driving stick is more fun, a more involved process, one that demands more respect... And in the end, returns with good memories, and a better fuel bill to boot.

=====

RE: Gibson

Congrats my man! This is the start of something that will likely lead you to a dark alleyway in which you will cry yourself to sleep realizing that your favorite car is otherwise unavailable without an automatic...

I totally i agree with everything said. I couldnt care less if a dual clutch smg gearbox what ever the car company calls it. I would still op for the full manual option. Just like if someone offered me a Evo X MR with the dual clutch ss/t or a standard Evo X with the 5 speed manual. I would go the manual.

It scares me that everyone is going for this smg type gearboxes...i personally believe it spoils the fun out of it. Nothing better then hitting the track rev matching correctly before taking the corner! Even when i bought a daily went a manual.

At the end of the day it comes to personal perference some prefer autos and some people prefer manual. Me personally manual all the way!

gibson good to see your learning manual. Once you get use to it you can then teach yourself heal toe....which is pretty easy once you get use to it. But i wont recomend it until your comfortable driving manual. Just makes it easier to learn.

 

[mustangGT90210]

PINKIE!!

WTF-ie!!!

 

[Joey D]

i disagree with you on that. you can rev a stick much lower on the highways than a 4 speed auto

Except most modern autos worth anything are 5 or 6 speeds...hell some are even 7 or 8 speeds. My car revs fairly low at 80mph, but as I've said I got a 6-speed auto that I can control if I desire.

Why automakers continue to put 4 speeds in cars is beyond me, but as I've shown through the Cobalt example you can get the same mileage...and those numbers we lifted right from chevy's website.

 

[nissan tuner]

gas mileage w/ a manual is a variable though. who knows how fast or slow the engine was moving in their test. i wouldn't be surprised if you could get better highway mileage than 32MPG

 

[Joey D]

You can easily get better then EPA mileage, I do it all the time with my car. As I've said it's how you drive the car and not so much the variables. If you are easy on the throttle with an auto it will shift similar to a manual. If I'm easy the Cooper shifts at ~2,000 rpms which seems fairly low for that small of an engine.

 

[mustangGT90210]

You can easily get better then EPA mileage, I do it all the time with my car. As I've said it's how you drive the car and not so much the variables. If you are easy on the throttle with an auto it will shift similar to a manual. If I'm easy the Cooper shifts at ~2,000 rpms which seems fairly low for that small of an engine.

My dad's mustang can shift at 1,500 rpms


That's really surprising, I dind't think a small engine would EVER do that. If coopers would devalue I'd be looking at one to buy

 

[The Porko]

In terms of mileage it really comes down to the ratios that the box uses, not the box itself. Depending on the car though there are cars out there where the auto box ratios use more fuel then the manual gearbox ratios.

 

[Brett]

Every car I've owned has been stick, its been a requirement, and it will continue to be one. I realize that I'm in a growing minority, and of course, I realize that fewer companies are offering them in their cars... But I don't care.

A few points...

- Bitching about using the clutch in heavy traffic is a cop-out. You don't have to hold it in gear the entire time, there are other ways of doing it right. Sure, the clutch can be a bit heavy in a car like a Mustang or whatever, but meh... Most cars it won't be bad.

- Complaints over shift speed are rather silly as well. Sure, I'm not going to argue over the points on a drag strip, but around the track and in any other performance application, 99% of the time you're going to see the stick being the better option with a driver who knows what he/she is doing.

...And while I certainly realize that technology has caught up with automatics in some applications (Jaguar, Mercedes, others come to mind), it will be the F1/DSG/PDK setups that eventually replace them. All of which technically are manual gearboxes...

- Lets face facts: Automatics are good at getting people going, for people who don't care about how they're getting from point A to point B. Automatics are good at making people think they're in control of the gearbox by putting flappy paddles on the side, buttons on the wheel, or a slot on the console. But you know what? The transmission still thinks it knows better (most of the time)...

===

I'm in a dying breed. I know it. But at the same time, I see a lot of hope when a bunch of kids I know want to learn how to drive stick, or for that matter, make the choice to start with their first car.

Its really quite simple: Driving stick is more fun, a more involved process, one that demands more respect... And in the end, returns with good memories, and a better fuel bill to boot.

=====

RE: Gibson

Congrats my man! This is the start of something that will likely lead you to a dark alleyway in which you will cry yourself to sleep realizing that your favorite car is otherwise unavailable without an automatic...

Very nice post! 👍 I am also in this group.

My first car was a standard. My next two were/are automatics. I have such an itch right now for a standard (think, I got a fever . . . and the only prescription is more standard ). My next car will be a standard. There for a bit I was considering maybe something along the lines of a DSG type box, but that has gone out the window. A friend of mine has a Z32, has let me drive it a few times, and that has only added fuel to the fire of wanting another standard.

 

[Perfect Balance]

There is nothing lazy about an automatic, honestly I love having one and wouldn't want it any other way. I hate people that get an elitist air about them when they drive a manual. It's the owner of the vehicle's money, they should be able to buy it however they like without being critised for it.

I don't mind automatics for normal people in everyday life, I just hate the "I am a driving enthusiast, I just still want to be able to drive in comfort the rest of the time" attitude that some people have. If you can't live with the (apparently very annoying) job of moving a lever around (which becomes second nature anyway) then I don't think you can call yourself a true enthusiast.

 

[Joey D]

I don't mind automatics for normal people in everyday life, I just hate the "I am a driving enthusiast, I just still want to be able to drive in comfort the rest of the time" attitude that some people have. If you can't live with the (apparently very annoying) job of moving a lever around (which becomes second nature anyway) then I don't think you can call yourself a true enthusiast.

I think you're being rather elitist, which is a shame to be quite honest. I consider myself an automotive enthusiast and have an auto. I would hate my car if it were a manual, I know this because I test drove both the Cooper and the Cooper S with both auto and manual transmissions.

Being a driving enthusiast has nothing to do with the car you have, the transmission it has in it, or the rate at which you drive. Being a driving enthusiast means you own a vehicle that is set up in the way you prefer and you enjoy driving it at whatever rate is enjoyable to you. I could honestly drive all day in my car down some back country roads and love every minute of it, in fact I did just that a few weekends ago around the thumb area of Michigan.

You shouldn't be allowed to call yourself an enthusiast if you mock others for doing the same thing you apparently love to do yourself. If you enjoy driving you are an enthusiast.

 

[Perfect Balance]

You shouldn't be allowed to call yourself an enthusiast if you mock others for doing the same thing you apparently love to do yourself. If you enjoy driving you are an enthusiast.

I should change that to "performance driving enthusiast" as I know my sister likes to drive and doesn't know the first thing about performance driving.




Anyway, I consider myself a performance driving enthusiast, and if someone hops in their car, presses the go pedal and turns the wheel left and right, I don't consider what they did even close to what I do, there are major differences and it takes a lot more understanding to drive a manual car quickly, properly. You simply cannot maintain the balance of the car as good in an automatic, cannot change the attitude of the car as smoothly or effectivly, or make mid corner adjustments to the car's behavior as well, because it doesn't have the response of a manual.

I'm not saying I'm such a great driver, but I simply can't put it in the same category.

 

[Bones Brigade]

well now, as much as i love 3 pedals, i think you may be forgetting that the most impressive, fastest and best handling cars in the world dont have a clutch pedal. and while that omission is for a much more necessary purpose, it doesnt mean "lesser" cars are any less "enthusiastic." enjoying the performance of a car doesn't mean you have to utilize all your limbs. it means you appreciate what the car was created to do. since we're talking performance, that's usually going fast, or something along the lines of that. the best versions of many cars (i'm thinking german cars) only have two pedals. you can be enthusiastic and appreciate that your r32 was fitted with a transmission allowing you to keep up with higher powered cars or that it allows you to shave a tenth of a second off each corner around the track. and if your really a performance driving enthusiast, wouldn't those things matter to you as well?

 

[1X83Z]

Nice going everyone. Keep the discussion alive. I'll throw in a curveball just to throw you off.

Automatic off-roading > manual off-roading

Ooooooooooooooooh...

 

[Perfect Balance]

well now, as much as i love 3 pedals, i think you may be forgetting that the most impressive, fastest and best handling cars in the world dont have a clutch pedal. and while that omission is for a much more necessary purpose, it doesnt mean "lesser" cars are any less "enthusiastic."

Those cars aren't really automatic.

Nice going everyone. Keep the discussion alive. I'll throw in a curveball just to throw you off.

Automatic off-roading > manual off-roading

Ooooooooooooooooh...

You know it would have happened regardless of whether or not you said anything about it.

 

[nissan tuner]

Nice going everyone. Keep the discussion alive. I'll throw in a curveball just to throw you off.

Automatic off-roading > manual off-roading

Ooooooooooooooooh...

lol i hear that one. that also goes for work trucks and haulers

 

[Bones Brigade]

Those cars aren't really automatic.

yes, i suppose they are not "automatic transmissions" and my post is aimed more at defending dual clutch. the real point is that uber enthusiasm does not require 3 pedals.

 

[1X83Z]

You know it would have happened regardless of whether or not you said anything about it.

True, but if this ever comes up again I'm going to take credit for three pages of back-and-forth due to a one sentence post.

 

[Perfect Balance]

yes, i suppose they are not "automatic transmissions" and my post is aimed more at defending dual clutch.

I don't mind those, I'm just talking about the full blown automatic cars that sometimes have a + - thing. (which takes a second to respond to your inputs anyways) I absolutely hate them.

 

[Wolfe]

For a POS, that little B2000 is fun...

Yeah, a decent manual transmission will do that to a car, no matter how crappy it is.

That's really surprising, I dind't think a small engine would EVER do that.

My BMW's 1.8L can drive below 2000RPM all day, unless you hit the highway. I picked up the habit after living with a host family in Germany, where I noticed that they short-shifted their Rover 1.4L all the time. It's just a matter of not giving it so much throttle that the engine starts to shudder -- even then, I still have enough accelerative power to get ahead of most other traffic in my town.

...the most impressive, fastest and best handling cars in the world dont have a clutch pedal...

...the best versions of many cars (i'm thinking german cars) only have two pedals. you can be enthusiastic and appreciate that your r32 was fitted with a transmission allowing you to...shave a tenth of a second off each corner around the track. and if your really a performance driving enthusiast, wouldn't those things matter to you as well?

As I said before, there's more to driving than laptimes and shift times. If such things were truly paramount, it'd be faster and more consistent to let the car drive itself. With all of these sophisticated transmissions, stability and traction control systems, launch control computers, lane position monitors, etc., that's where we seem to be headed anyway.

In all seriousness, a smooth and lightning-quick sequential manual that can shift itself is a neat thing to have, and because it lacks the drawbacks of a torque converter, it's okay in my book. However, outside of a competitive track environment, it's wholly unnecessary, IMO.

Nice going everyone. Keep the discussion alive. I'll throw in a curveball just to throw you off.

Automatic off-roading > manual off-roading

Ooooooooooooooooh...

Psh. Some curveball. I'll be surprised if anyone attempts to refute you.

I don't mind those, I'm just talking about the full blown automatic cars that sometimes have a + - thing. (which takes a second to respond to your inputs anyways) I absolutely hate them.

They're evil because until you drive one, they give you false hope.

 

[Tornado]

Automatic off-roading > manual off-roading

Ooooooooooooooooh...

Stickshift off-roading is hell. Not much of a curve ball.

I picked up the habit after living with a host family in Germany, where I noticed that they short-shifted their Rover 1.4L all the time.

Mom drives dad's car like that all of the time. It annoys me to no end (and I don't know why). Oddly enough, she doesn't drive her car that way.

 

[1X83Z]

I thought offroading was a manual thing???

FINE THEN!!

Curveball:

Automatic off-roading < manual off-roading

WHAT NOW BITCHES??

 

[Wolfe]

I thought offroading was a manual thing???

FINE THEN!!

Curveball:

Automatic off-roading < manual off-roading

WHAT NOW BITCHES??

Well, to explain, an automatic helps you with standing starts on inclines, allows you to maintain momentum if an upshift is desired while charging up a hill, and makes it easy to slowly creep over boulders and such.

 

[ferrari_chris]

Er... The 599 doesn't have a conventional automatic.

I know that. It's a manual. And it shifts faster than an auto. Hence the reference I was making.

My car will not have 2 pedals, end of story.

I hate automatics and everything about them. To me they say "laziness" and nothing more. I can shift on my own, and I'm better at it than an automatic too.


I also know when to shift better, and I have better response when I'm going to shift.

For once, I agree with you 100%.



Also, is anyone confusing manually shifted automatics with automatically shifted manuals? Or is the auto/manual thing being based on the input device the driver uses to change ratios, rather than whether the gearbox has a clutch or a torqueconverter?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I worked all day driving the truck around, hauling things on my buddies farm with lost of fun (Read:twisty) dirt roads. Very fun to drive a stick, now if only it had a tach. For a POS, that little B2000 is fun, I might buy one. I only stalled it 5 times today, that about 15 less than yesterday.

It's the same truck as a Ranger, different powerplant. Nice little trucks.

I may try to get one for my first vehicle (B-series or Ranger) Also, as for manual-transmission equipped cars without tachometers: You don't need one. Go on sound.

i disagree with you on that. you can rev a stick much lower on the highways than a 4 speed auto

I think I need to point out a few things here...

4-speed automatics are generally geared very wide. 3rd is usually 1:1 and 4th is usually 0.62-0.75:1 depending on the application.

Guess what? Manuals have the same overdrive ratio, except it's 5th! Well, unless it's a T-56, where it MAY wind up with a .5 6th gear.

A good, lockup-converter equipped overdrive slushbox will match a stick in highway consumption, and if done right, in the city as well.

My dad's mustang can shift at 1,500 rpms


That's really surprising, I dind't think a small engine would EVER do that. If coopers would devalue I'd be looking at one to buy

Those Ford 3.8s make a good bit of low-end, don't they? 4.2L in the F-150 is based off the 3.8 also, just a longer stroke. I've seen one get shifted at 1200 and not have issues.

And if Joey's Cooper can push itself around at 2 grand, I'll take one! I also now believe his fuel economy claims.

 

[the Interceptor]

What pretty much nails it for me is that every time I drive an automatic, I always get the feeling that the autobox can only guess what I'm up to in the next moment, but it will never know. So it can only re-act to my inputs.

With a manual however, I can act as I want to, and gear up (har har) for what I'm about to do perfectly. There are moments when an autobox actually is better, like when I drive "passively" and just want to get from A to B. In terms of driving "actively" however, may it be on a track or on the road (no, I don't road-race!), I'd always prefer the manual.