Let's talk about redundant/useless car tech

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You guys can argue about instant reaction times and seeing beyond the horizon all you want, but computers simply do not have the decision making capacity of a human. It's the reason we still put people in the Space Shuttle, pilots in an airplane, and a computer technician in your house fixing something that nobody makes a program for.
You do realize an airplane can actually do everything but taxi by itself & maintain itself. Pilots are really only there to monitor the systems & serve as a stand in if something goes wrong. As Casio said, they already rely solely on those computers telling them how to take off, fly, & land, so it doesn't take much more to set the plane on auto-pilot & whatever else.

The only thing that keeps anyone from allowing a plane to do so though, is the confidence of the plane running completely by itself while carrying 400+ passengers.
 
Not to mention the fact that aircraft like the F16 and F117 Stealth Fighter cannot fly at all under human control.

No human has reactions fast enough to keep the aerodynamically unsound F16 in the air. Or even the F117, which is even more aerodynamically unsound.

Having a computer do the things that a human can't do or can't be expected to pay attention to when he/she is doing something more important, such as lining up a shot on an enemy aircraft or setting up the car for the next apex is a good idea.

Take it to its eventual final development... a driver steering a rally-bomber down a twisty mountain course in the rain. The computer is giving him an HUD overlay showing radar and sonar readings of the surface ahead... where the wet patches and loose surfaces are... it's squeegeeing the brakes in anticipation of the corner and shuffling torque around to the wheels that can use it most. He turns. The computer reads the situation and realizes that he needs all four wheels steering around the corner, not together as in a lane-change maneuver, and adjusts the steering system accordingly. It also puts the e-differentials on maximum lock to help with turning. He slides around the corner and gives the gas the boot. The electronic throttle hangs a tiny bit, to prevent bogging and ensure smooth power delivery (the best e-throttles are already as responsive as cables... without the "lugging" you get from suddenly booting a cable-throttle setup) and gives him the best acceleration out of the corner. The whole time, the driver has his hands on the wheel... grinning like an idiot...

Let alone a 2-and-a-half-ton Mercedes that lies and tells me I've completely switched off the driver support systems when it has not.

That's really annoying. I hate it when I turn the ESP on a car off... get the tail one or two degrees out of line... and feel that eerie, familiar juddering that tells me... looks at the dashboard... yup... the ESP is on again. :grumpy:
 
Yeah, there's the basis for a decent debate somewhere in all that 'when I was a boy...' style rubbish. I half expected him to proclaim that head lamps are for those of us who don't eat enough carrots. Utter, utter trash.


I'd agree with the rain sensing wipers and automatic lights. It's just another thing to go wrong, as far as I'm concerned. I'm all for technology that senses an accident before a human possibly could, but windscreen wipers? I know when to put them on - I can see it's bloody raining. And perhaps electric seat adjustment. And the keyless go in that Mazda.

But that's it. Those are the only things I can agree with him on.
What? I agree with everything you posted except the bold part. What??
How is technology going to sense an accident before a human "possibly could"?

Automatic wipers, headlights, are useless. From every review I've read, these crash-sensors could actually cause an accident, should you attempt to reach your cars limits.
You know what my real complaint about modern cars is? Airbags. I had them go off in my face once. One time, is all I needed. If you're wearing your seatbelt, (like the law says to) they do nothing except burn your arms, eyes, and face. Literally, they gave me brush burns for a week, and my eyes burned for 2 days. If I could I'd never drive with airbags. Side airbags maybe, but I don't need them in front of me, I got me a seatbelt you prick lawmakers.

Now if/when they advance crash sensors they can help, but from what I've read they suck right now.

Take it to its eventual final development... a driver steering a rally-bomber down a twisty mountain course in the rain. The computer is giving him an HUD overlay showing radar and sonar readings of the surface ahead... where the wet patches and loose surfaces are... it's squeegeeing the brakes in anticipation of the corner and shuffling torque around to the wheels that can use it most. He turns. The computer reads the situation and realizes that he needs all four wheels steering around the corner, not together as in a lane-change maneuver, and adjusts the steering system accordingly. It also puts the e-differentials on maximum lock to help with turning. He slides around the corner and gives the gas the boot. The electronic throttle hangs a tiny bit, to prevent bogging and ensure smooth power delivery (the best e-throttles are already as responsive as cables... without the "lugging" you get from suddenly booting a cable-throttle setup) and gives him the best acceleration out of the corner. The whole time, the driver has his hands on the wheel... grinning like an idiot...
And now there's even less skill required to race. Yay. I'm already not a fan of paddle shifters for that reason, let alone all that.
I don't believe paddle shifters, tc, asm, abs, or automatics belong in racing machines at all.
These are things a driver can control, and should have to when racing. I want to see which car/driver is faster, not which computer has the best programming.
 
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You know what my real complaint about modern cars is? Airbags. I had them go off in my face once. One time, is all I needed. If you're wearing your seatbelt, (like the law says to) they do nothing except burn your arms, eyes, and face. Literally, they gave me brush burns for a week, and my eyes burned for 2 days. If I could I'd never drive with airbags. Side airbags maybe, but I don't need them in front of me, I got me a seatbelt you prick lawmakers.

You should send an e-mail to every car manufacturer and safety authority in the world because you obviously know better then countless billions of dollars of research over 30 years which proves otherwise. Nevermind, the fact that you're not dead proves they work to some degree. That's one of the stupidest posts I've ever read.
 
Aight, guys. I have four more. This time from Jalopnik's list of useful car tech.

  • Automatic rev matching
  • Folding hardtops
  • Three-prong outlets
  • Hood scoops

The rev matching is just a toy. And by their logic, it should be on the list of redundant technology.

Folding hardtops just make the car heavier. What's wrong with a decent canvas roof? But I've never liked convertibles all that much so I could be missing something.

Useful, but not really all that important. I don't think I've ever plugged anything into the outlets in any of my cars, and have never needed to. But I guess putting them into a car doesn't sacrifice anything anyway. They could change all outlets to a standard wall unit and I don't think I'd notice.

Hood scoops do look cool, but do they do anything other than that? It's one thing to have a huge blower coming out the hood, but it seems that most scoops could easily be designed around. I really think they're awesome, but just not entirely necessary.

All four are like that. Cool, but not really necessary. Much like a lot of the toys on the redundant list.
 
Care to elaborate?
Normally, fighter jets are designed with positive static ability, or the ability for a jet to return to normal attitude or facing the horizon. This can be done by human control without nearly any of the computers (as they are trained to do so beforehand). However, because of this, anytime a pilot tries to maneuver , there is an opposition for the plane to stay in normal attitude.

When the plane is designed the other way around (negative), the plane becomes more maneuverable, but plane also becomes more "sensitive".

At supersonic, the negative static ability allows the plane to maneuver very fast. At these speeds though, the aerodynamics will allow the plane to level out due to the negative affect actually exhibiting a positive. Remember, P.S.A. means a plane can fly leveled out on its own without any input.

At subsonic speeds however, the positive static ability effect is gone & allows the plane to move itself from being leveled. Thus, the pilot must then fight the plane to re-gain control. However, because the plane can continuously keep "moving" itself from leveling, the pilot is constantly fighting for control.

To battle this, the F-16 has 4 channels of Fly-By-Wire which allows the pilot to makes his inputs. The computers then manipulate the plane into having what the pilot wants. But again, because the plane is trying to leave the flight path, the computers are still making the needed changes to battle these inputs not given by the pilot.

The F-117 wasn't as technological though, & I believe its designed contributed much to its ability to resist relaxed stability. There's also the fact it was a stealth jet & not a fighter.
The rev matching is just a toy. And by their logic, it should be on the list of redundant technology.
Negative friend. It's useful because it allows idiots from blowing the engine. You should know by now its called the "Removal of Heel-Toe Shifting" or the art of smooth down shifts. This rev matching technology now allows an idiot to shift form 5th to 3rd without blowing the engine. In the hands of the skilled, it then becomes the equivalent of paddle-shifters & what not, allowing the driver to be much faster.

Best yet, it fits into the current argument going on about technology in cars. It'll do everything faster than a human can.

Hood scoops do look cool, but do they do anything other than that? It's one thing to have a huge blower coming out the hood, but it seems that most scoops could easily be designed around. I really think they're awesome, but just not entirely necessary.
Depends upon the cars. Many are designed with the hood scoop in mind to provide sufficient cooling to the engine such as the STi's intercooler. They can also provide aerodynamics when reversed.
 
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You should send an e-mail to every car manufacturer and safety authority in the world because you obviously know better then countless billions of dollars of research over 30 years which proves otherwise. Nevermind, the fact that you're not dead proves they work to some degree. That's one of the stupidest posts I've ever read.

Kind of sounds like my friend that refuses to wear his seat belt unless around where he thinks cops are because about 3 years ago he got side swiped by a car in his geo and because of his seat belt, part of the car went into his arm and his knees got smashed into the dash or something like that; though in his case he doesn't dispute that they save lives and should be taken out, he just says he trusts his arms holding better:lol:
 
You should send an e-mail to every car manufacturer and safety authority in the world because you obviously know better then countless billions of dollars of research over 30 years which proves otherwise. Nevermind, the fact that you're not dead proves they work to some degree. That's one of the stupidest posts I've ever read.
You are correct. at 15mph, the airbag that shouldn't have even gone off saved my life in my side-impact crash. Thank the Lord, I'm saved.
And no, there was no sign (like airbag light) that told me the airbag was dysfunctional. And what are the statistics for lives saved by airbags for drivers in good health, not overweight, in their 20's, that are already wearing seatbelts?
As far as I know, the airbag laws came in because people weren't wearing seatbelts, and kept flying out of cars, smashing their faces on wheels, snapping wheels and being impaled, etc.
You tell me how safe an airbag is if they recommend children not sit in front of them?
I did hit a telephone pole when I was 16, at 45mph. No injury whatsoever though.

Regardless of your opinion, or statistics, why am I not allowed to remove them? If I'm as stupid as you seem to think it takes to not like airbags, that's my problem, not the governments.
 
Care to elaborate?

Aircraft like those mentioned, and especially those like the Eurofighter, are inherently unstable aerodynamically. Without a computer making thousands of tiny little adjustments per second on the control surfaces, the plane would simply fall out of the air.

You guys can argue about instant reaction times and seeing beyond the horizon all you want, but computers simply do not have the decision making capacity of a human. It's the reason we still put people in the Space Shuttle, pilots in an airplane, and a computer technician in your house fixing something that nobody makes a program for.

I'm fairly sure NASA have said for a long time that humans are essentially redundant in space travel now. The only point of having people up there is to have people up there. Hence they've already made numerous unmanned trips to Mars, when the really tricky part is getting the soft, squidgy organic bits that die easily there in safety. Humans are essentially the weak link in space travel.

Indeed, on the Mars missions so far, humans have been used back in the control centre just to make sure everything is going to plan and to steer the little robots around that they use to collect bits of Mars with.

Re: Folding hardtops - I used to not like them for the reason mentioned - heaviness, basically - but they've grown on me. I live in a country where the weather is awful a lot of the time, and you're never going to get the warmth and quietness with a canvas roof (even a good one) that you're going to get from a proper metal roof. Nor the security, in a land of chavs who won't think twice about running a knife through your roof for absolutely no good reason. If I was in the market for a Mazda MX-5 at the moment, I'd definitely give the PRHT version some consideration.
 
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RE: Less skill... Look at it this way... you remove the things that a driver doesn't strictly have to do and they can do the things they really have to do much better.

The amount of skill needed to become an F1 driver is enormous, and yet F1 cars have a lot of technology that make driving easier... but not to the point of removing skill completely, but to allow the driver to concentrate on what is most important. The driving itself. Modern racing powerboats already have a "computer" that controls engine parameters that the driver doesn't have time to control... it's the engine-man. :lol:

What i described is the road-going equivalent of a jet fighter... computer assists taken to the extreme... allowing a driver to go faster than humanly possible over uneven terrain.

Of course, I actually enjoy a good thrap down the road in a good old-fashioned car like an old Miata. Of course, having power steering, power-assisted brakes, electronic fuel injection and no manual choke control, there is already a layer of assists between me and the tarmac.

In fact, even without EFI, there are already a lot of things that are out of the driver's control on an old sports car... you don't have direct control over ignition timing... you can't manually change the advance for maximum performance. You can't adjust fuel trims (though this stuff is now available for racing cars and street cars with aftermarket ECUs)... you have no direct control over idle... You can't balance brake force distribution (it's automatically handled by a proportioning valve) to change a car's attitude through a corner (you need to use the handbrake)... etcetera... etcetera... etcetera.

-

For those of us who grew up with the manual transmission and lack of ABS, the increasing layers of electronic intervention are disheartening. But me? I just learn to get used to it... rearrange my expectations, and judge things against the environment in which they're conceived. Automatics are close to becoming perfect. Electric steering only has a few years to go before reaching the level of organic interaction that hydraulic steering reached before it was replaced by electric... and some electronic throttles are already as good as or better than cabled throttles. The only thing that makes these advances unpalatable to us enthusiasts is that many manufacturers are programming these to be user-friendly for non-car people.

Thank god there are a few that have their priorities straight...

Care to elaborate?

Damnit, I was going to answer this, but it was answered for me... :lol:
 
You should send an e-mail to every car manufacturer and safety authority in the world because you obviously know better then countless billions of dollars of research over 30 years which proves otherwise. Nevermind, the fact that you're not dead proves they work to some degree. That's one of the stupidest posts I've ever read.
There is a decent argument against airbags. Current use of airbags are not intended as a primary safety device. They are a secondary/supplemental restraint system (SRS), which means that they are only intended to work fully in conjunction with seatbelt use. Of course the only reason why a seatbelt would not be enough is in a fairly high speed accident. And in those cases an airbag alone is not enough.

The problem is that most people have no clue what that SRS under the airbag label means and there are people dumb enough to think having an airbag means they don't need a seatbelt.

Some of the main arguments against airbags do come from the fact that a small number of deaths have been directly attributed to airbags. However a number of those are due to parents improperly placing smaller children in the front seat. Airbags can also cause injuries that otherwise wouldn't have happened. I personally know two people who have had broken bones (one arm, one wrist) due to the airbag deployment. As mentioned here, there is also some burn risk involved as well. Newer technology has helped reduce the numbers of these cases, but they are not risk free.


All that said, I do not believe airbags are useless. They do save lives and I have more than I care to count in my car. I like having them as an option.

But I do not believe they should be mandatory. If someone chooses to own a car without them they only put themselves at risk.
 
I'm not going to bother to read all 6 pages of people whinging about whether or not something is of use or not.

I'll sum up all I think about the article by saying this;
a) I am against anything that takes control away from the driver, or makes decisions for driver.
b) We need to upgrade the drivers themselves rather than invent new technology that makes the driver even more irrelevant. All the technology in the world can't save you from the idiot behind the wheel. I often ride my bicycle to work; 15 miles each way. I know all about the idiot behind the wheel.
 
All that said, I do not believe airbags are useless. They do save lives and I have more than I care to count in my car. I like having them as an option.

But I do not believe they should be mandatory. If someone chooses to own a car without them they only put themselves at risk.

Now five-point seatbelts and HANS devices, on the other hand... 💡

+1... I have a lot of people ask me for car-buying advice on the local boards... now, some people will chime in and say XXX has airbags, while YYY does not, thus, XXX is safer...

Which doesn't always follow...

Hell, I'll come straight out and say it... a Chinese car with six airbags will be nowhere near as safe as a Korean car with none. Especially when that Chinese car gets zero stars on every western crash test, even with the airbags going off properly.

I personally believe that EuroNCAP and NHTSA should do secondary tests with cars with the airbags disabled... to simulate a worst-case scenario... as well as do a pole-impact test, to give a broader range of data on crash safety.

Too many manufacturers are building cars to specifically ace either test, instead of building cars which are inherently safe in any type of crash. Which is plain wrong. I'm not arguing for tank-like cars, though... I just feel that artificially inflating safety numbers through building specifically for a few predictable tests is a bigger sham than producing cars that are safe. Period.
 
The people in Space Shuttles and Aeroplanes are totally reliant on computers.
The computers were programmed by people, they're powered on by people, they're monitored by people for safety's sake, and they're overridden by people.

You know for a fact that there are often electronic failures with spacecraft, and in the past there have been a few notable and spectacular failures. You can't even begin to say that people rely entirely on computers to fly in the atmosphere and out. Both have been done manually before, proving that we don't actually need computers at all. We just used them to make it easier, so we didn't have to write down all those equations next time.

You do realize an airplane can actually do everything but taxi by itself & maintain itself. Pilots are really only there to monitor the systems & serve as a stand in if something goes wrong. As Casio said, they already rely solely on those computers telling them how to take off, fly, & land, so it doesn't take much more to set the plane on auto-pilot & whatever else.

The only thing that keeps anyone from allowing a plane to do so though, is the confidence of the plane running completely by itself while carrying 400+ passengers.
If automation is infallible as Casio is suggesting, then explain to me why you conceded my point. It's not, and you obviously know that because you just said why. When they screw up, which they do often, people are there to either fix it, or take it over entirely.

Not to mention the fact that aircraft like the F16 and F117 Stealth Fighter cannot fly at all under human control.

No human has reactions fast enough to keep the aerodynamically unsound F16 in the air. Or even the F117, which is even more aerodynamically unsound.
I'm going to take your F16 comment with a grain of salt as I've never heard anything of the sort. But it is common knowledge that the F117 and B2 Spirit are quite aerodynamically unstable (the B2 doesn't even have a vertical tail), and the computers are constantly making minute adjustments in order to keep them on the intended course.

But the intended course is dictated by a pilot, with stick, throttle, and weapons controls in hand. The computer is simply a supplementary, reactionary device.

Take it to its eventual final development... a driver steering a rally-bomber down a twisty mountain course in the rain. The computer is giving him an HUD overlay showing radar and sonar readings of the surface ahead... where the wet patches and loose surfaces are... it's squeegeeing the brakes in anticipation of the corner and shuffling torque around to the wheels that can use it most. He turns. The computer reads the situation and realizes that he needs all four wheels steering around the corner, not together as in a lane-change maneuver, and adjusts the steering system accordingly. It also puts the e-differentials on maximum lock to help with turning. He slides around the corner and gives the gas the boot. The electronic throttle hangs a tiny bit, to prevent bogging and ensure smooth power delivery (the best e-throttles are already as responsive as cables... without the "lugging" you get from suddenly booting a cable-throttle setup) and gives him the best acceleration out of the corner. The whole time, the driver has his hands on the wheel... grinning like an idiot...
Right. Just like the bombers cited, all these systems are supplementary. The only thing keeping the car from crashing into a tree is the driver's skill. That includes everything from his decision making abilities to his driving experiences. All the computer is doing is reacting to something that has already happened, be it even a thousandth of a second beforehand. They do have much quicker reactions than a human, but reactions they still are.

Next time you all sit in your car, look at your GPS screen. Wait for it to turn on and suggest a destination. Hopefully it'll stop by the donut shop on the way for a quick breakfast. Surely it'll remember on this very early morning that they're not open yet, so it'll decide to go to Mcdonald's instead.
 
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I'm going to take your F16 comment with a grain of salt as I've never heard anything of the sort. But it is common knowledge that the F117 and B2 Spirit are quite aerodynamically unstable (the B2 doesn't even have a vertical tail), and the computers are constantly making minute adjustments in order to keep them on the intended course.

But the intended course is dictated by a pilot, with stick, throttle, and weapons controls in hand. The computer is simply a supplementary, reactionary device.

The F16 is the same. It is so aerodynamically unstable that human reaction times are insufficient to keep it flying straight in relatively benign conditions... let alone conditions pilots would encounter in combat.

Right. Just like the bombers cited, all these systems are supplementary. The only thing keeping the car from crashing into a tree is the driver's skill. That includes everything from his decision making abilities to his driving experiences. All the computer is doing is reacting to something that has already happened, be it even a thousandth of a second beforehand. They do have much quicker reactions than a human, but reactions they still are.

Next time you all sit in your car, look at your GPS screen. Wait for it to turn on and suggest a destination. Hopefully it'll stop by the donut shop on the way for a quick breakfast. Surely it'll remember on this very early morning that they're not open yet, so it'll decide to go to Mcdonald's instead.

Computers won't be making the major decisions, but, though, as you say, computers are reactive systems, not predictive, like I said before, they can be programmed to react to information not available to the driver.

Not that I want a computer driving my car at all times, but I am willing to admit that there are conditions where a computer would do a better job than I of doing so.
 
I'll agree that there are situations where info available to a computer would come in handy it does often. But until it does in every single situation, without fail, then Casio's argument for automated everything is ridiculous.
 
Present day computers may not be able to make decisions or drive as well as humans, but think 50 years into the future. Computers keep getting more advanced, at a rapid pace. Humans just keep getting stupider. I have no facts to back up that statement, which only makes it more valid. :) What am I even trying to say?
 
If automation is infallible as Casio is suggesting, then explain to me why you conceded my point. It's not, and you obviously know that because you just said why. When they screw up, which they do often, people are there to either fix it, or take it over entirely.

People are much more open to riding in an automated ground vehicle than air vehicles. Obviously. In a totally automated aircraft, if hypothetically the system fails then you're dead. You can't really program into a aircraft if everything breaks, pull over and send out a warning signal to alert all other things to go around you until help arrives, like you could with a ground vehicle.

What do people the majority of people do when driving everyday (well me anyway), sit in traffic, and concentrate on not running into the person in front of me at 10mph. It's not that hard to derive a system that could take care of that for you. I don't care if it's called 'traffic mode', and you can still steer, but it's an example where human prediction is not needed and could easily be automated.

Right. Just like the bombers cited, all these systems are supplementary. The only thing keeping the car from crashing into a tree is the driver's skill. That includes everything from his decision making abilities to his driving experiences. All the computer is doing is reacting to something that has already happened, be it even a thousandth of a second beforehand. They do have much quicker reactions than a human, but reactions they still are.

Look at that Video of ASIMO moving around the bits of paper again (if you even bothered to the first time). 'He' calculates the environment and goes through it with pinpoint timing and precision. When the guy starts moving the end point around, he works out the most optimum way to get to it while dodging the objects around him. This is essentially transport, getting from one place to another. While he cannot 'predict' where the man is going to keep moving the destination and objects around him, he can process the data in the space around him much quicker than a human can.

I'll agree that there are situations where info available to a computer would come in handy it does often. But until it does in every single situation, without fail, then Casio's argument for automated everything is ridiculous.

More and more things in life are be coming automated, from Microwaves that know how to cook Pork for you, to Fridges that order Food when it senses that it is running low. When they came out, people probably said, "Why would I want my fridge to decide on groceries when I can do it myself?". Some of you have DVRs which record shows at a constant time-slot every week, most people don't choose not to use them because they fear that it might not work. It's a totally certainy that when technology evolves manual human interaction will become less and less, it won't be to long till the functions of the brain can be simulated on a digital computer.
 
If automation is infallible as Casio is suggesting, then explain to me why you conceded my point. It's not, and you obviously know that because you just said why. When they screw up, which they do often, people are there to either fix it, or take it over entirely.
I never said I agree that automation is infallible. However, I was pointing out that if need be, these planes can fly by themselves; the technology is already there & is already used in the military. And guess what, they do very well by themselves.
Again, the only thing that keeps a passenger plane from doing so is that people are on them. If someone has the balls, they very well could attempt it & it very well could work if it can for the military.

What I don't agree with is that you claim that they screw up often unless you are suddenly talking about computer automation outside aviation, not that you'd ever know if airline computer automation has failed to begin with in a normal flight.
 
RE: Less skill... Look at it this way... you remove the things that a driver doesn't strictly have to do and they can do the things they really have to do much better.

The amount of skill needed to become an F1 driver is enormous, and yet F1 cars have a lot of technology that make driving easier... but not to the point of removing skill completely, but to allow the driver to concentrate on what is most important. The driving itself. Modern racing powerboats already have a "computer" that controls engine parameters that the driver doesn't have time to control... it's the engine-man. :lol:

What i described is the road-going equivalent of a jet fighter... computer assists taken to the extreme... allowing a driver to go faster than humanly possible over uneven terrain.

Of course, I actually enjoy a good thrap down the road in a good old-fashioned car like an old Miata. Of course, having power steering, power-assisted brakes, electronic fuel injection and no manual choke control, there is already a layer of assists between me and the tarmac.

In fact, even without EFI, there are already a lot of things that are out of the driver's control on an old sports car... you don't have direct control over ignition timing... you can't manually change the advance for maximum performance. You can't adjust fuel trims (though this stuff is now available for racing cars and street cars with aftermarket ECUs)... you have no direct control over idle... You can't balance brake force distribution (it's automatically handled by a proportioning valve) to change a car's attitude through a corner (you need to use the handbrake)... etcetera... etcetera... etcetera.

-

For those of us who grew up with the manual transmission and lack of ABS, the increasing layers of electronic intervention are disheartening. But me? I just learn to get used to it... rearrange my expectations, and judge things against the environment in which they're conceived. Automatics are close to becoming perfect. Electric steering only has a few years to go before reaching the level of organic interaction that hydraulic steering reached before it was replaced by electric... and some electronic throttles are already as good as or better than cabled throttles. The only thing that makes these advances unpalatable to us enthusiasts is that many manufacturers are programming these to be user-friendly for non-car people.

Thank god there are a few that have their priorities straight...



Damnit, I was going to answer this, but it was answered for me... :lol:
Most everything you named is irrelevant. Manual control ignition timing? would you like drivers to flick a big for each cylinder that fires, too?:scared:
Power-assisted steering and brakes are a minor argument, but they don't make a car go faster, (actually a little slower), and they don't steer or brake for you.
The things associated with driver's tasks would be fairly simple: Gas, Brake, Steer, Shift. That is what makes driving, driving.
It doesn't mean automatics shouldn't be sold, it doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to opt for tc, abs, or asm.
But they just don't belong on a racecar. Open-wheel cars are subject to slighty different rules, by many just because they're so damn fast. But even still, how much better could it be if they didn't?
What is driving if you put all those assists you mentioned on it?, Yes, you push the throttle, but you don't determine how much fuel is delivered, you push the brakes, but you don't determine how hard, and you turn the wheel, but don't control the angle. And what we call "driving", is now just you telling a computer forward, stop, left, and right.

You couldn't do limited-slip yourself manually, so it's ok to have a computer do it, it just makes the things you never had to control work better.

The argument that power brakes/steering is like similar would be like saying short shifters aren't allowed. You're still controlling it, it's just physically easier.
 
The things associated with driver's tasks would be fairly simple: Gas, Brake, Steer, Shift. That is what makes driving, driving.
It doesn't mean automatics shouldn't be sold, it doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to opt for tc, abs, or asm.
But they just don't belong on a racecar. Open-wheel cars are subject to slighty different rules, by many just because they're so damn fast. But even still, how much better could it be if they didn't?

The thing is, racecars aren't about driving, they're about going fast. And anything to make them faster is going to be developed & used sooner or later. Yes, it would be cool to see how much skill & talent a driver has if he had to race solely on 3 pedals & a stick, but those days are gone. It's all about beating the other car, and the inclusion of automated manuals & electronics make these feats easier to achieve.

This technology once proven in race cars will then make its way to road cars eventually. Ferrari is the prime of example of incorporating racing technology into road cars to make their cars faster.
 
Actually...

On sportsbikes, you can manually adjust braking balance... you simply have two brakes... the handbrake for the front wheel, the footbrake for the rear. This allows you infinitely more control over corner entry than if you have a single brake. Cars have individual brake control for the rears, but these are much simpler, and on many road cars, aren't strong enough or accurate enough... drift cars have long-levered non-ratcheted (they won't lock in place) hand-brakes for finer control... but a motorcyclist already has better control over these things... with individual wheel braking... and yet they're talking about converting racing bikes to ABS, because, although ABS might make them slower over a hot lap, it'll make them safer.

(know what? I'd gladly trade my clutch pedal for a second brake pedal! Have one pedal for the left brakes, one for the right brakes, and have them close enough that you can press both with one foot if you so desire... :lol: )

F1 cars have trim controls for fuel maps and ignition maps. And knowledge of the proper use of these controls is sometimes instrumental to winning a race. (more advance and leaner fuel, more speed... at the risk of blowing up...). In fact, McLaren found a ton of speed last year by mapping thesse controls to paddles under the gearshifters in their car. Thus, the driver could manually select a more conservative engine map while downshifting, thus limiting wheelspin in lower gears, and shift up to the "best" map as he went up into the higher gears.

I don't watch US racing, anymore, but I seem to remember that the turbocharged monsters in open wheel racing all had user-controllable boost-maps... useful for dialling in a bit of extra boost for overtaking. (you couldn't leave it on overboost all the time, it'd blow the engine).

And yet, these things are removed from your everyday car as "unnecessary"... because of the distraction and difficulty of managing all these subsystems while driving. Note that these systems would give a driver greater control over the vehicle and would arguably make the vehicle safer... except for the fact that most drivers would get confused handling all of this.

The guys arguing against tcs, ebd, esp, etcetera, are often the "purity of driving" guys. (again, I am a certified member of this cranky and irascible club)... but what they don't realize is that there is already a layer of sythetic interaction between them and the driving experience... no matter how hard they try to deny it. Which is where power brakes and power steering come in... they do make a car go faster... and they do brake and steer for you.

With power brakes, smaller motions of your foot equal greater braking force. Without power-assisted brakes, you'd need the legs of hercules to stop many of today's cars. There's a layer of slop as mechanical foot action is translated to hydraulic action, which is translated to mechanical action, again, at the wheels. Karts are an excellent example of a natural-feeling brake... because there is no assist involved, you can feel the condition of the brake. With power-assisted brakes, what you feel is the resistance of the fluid... It's fun to do a few laps and feel the brakes go to the floor because the fluid is boiling over... :lol: ...but power-assisted brakes helps give you more consistent stopping over race distance... and one wonders if any human is strong enough to work the brakes on a modern supercar without some kind of brake booster.

The difference between power steering and unassisted steering is enormous. Even the best power-racks pale in comparison to the direct linkage in a go-kart. Which is why McLaren didn't give the Macca F1 power steering. But it's a sacrifice some are willing to make. Some say it's a necessary sacrifice. In fact, most racecars have power steering. It makes things easier on the driver. Some roadtesters, in fact, have complained of a total lack of "feel" from some race-cars' steering.

And therein lies the crux of the argument... necessary sacrifice according to whom? The less work and clutter for a driver to deal with, the safer they'll be. The more tasks they have to do, the more fulfilled they'll feel about the driving experience, but what constitutes what tasks are actually necessary in the eyes of the driver often depends on what they're used to, rather than what's best. Where these lists fail is in the author's personal biases. "Hurh hurh... I think you're a wimp for wanting power seats... but I do love my iPod controls..."

Me? I'm used to the good old meat and potatoes manual control, with an extra knob thrown in here or there for engine management on-the-fly, and, hopefully, in the future, suspension adjustment settings... but I'm not going to deny that a modern ride with the full complement of ABS, EBD, TCS, DSC/ESP, etcetera, with a DSG gearbox is better than my car... and possibly faster down the same road.

Doesn't mean I have to like it... :lol: ...but at least I won't claim that my arbitrary preference is the best there is and the best there'll ever be.
 
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What is driving if you put all those assists you mentioned on it?, Yes, you push the throttle, but you don't determine how much fuel is delivered, you push the brakes, but you don't determine how hard, and you turn the wheel, but don't control the angle. And what we call "driving", is now just you telling a computer forward, stop, left, and right.

I'm not sure quite what you're getting at with this bit, but I think you're radically overestimating what power assisted steering/brakes and electronically controlled throttle gives you. Regardless of the layer of technology between yourself and the car responding many of these systems are still doing exactly the job you tell them to.

I think people forget how crap a lot of cars of yesteryear were too. Just because many cars from the 80s say didn't have power steering, or power brakes or electronic throttles, didn't mean they were immediately more involving than a modern car. A lot of the time they were just plain rubbish. Steering that you turned and the car took a second to react to, or brakes that you had to push through the floor before they bit, or a throttle response measured with a calendar.

I'd be loath to buy a performance car with too many electronic interventions but for most cars on the road today we're a hell of a lot better off with power steering/brakes/electronic throttle. And that's before you even begin to mention stuff like traction control, ABS etc which might be irritating in a race car but is very useful indeed in a road car.

That said, when I drove a race-prepared MINI Cooper on a race circuit a few years back I actually found the ABS very useful. On a damp track it meant I could still turn into a corner even when the front inside wheel was trying to lock. Maybe it's not as skillful as feathering the brakes but in all honesty we've seen plenty of professional racing drivers make mistakes when locking their wheels too so I didn't consider it "cheating" just because I had ABS.

And on the road ABS is a lifesaver. I don't have it in my car but there are times when I'd wished I did.
 
I'm not going to bother to read all 6 pages of people whinging about whether or not something is of use or not.

I'll sum up all I think about the article by saying this;
a) I am against anything that takes control away from the driver, or makes decisions for driver.
b) We need to upgrade the drivers themselves rather than invent new technology that makes the driver even more irrelevant. All the technology in the world can't save you from the idiot behind the wheel. I often ride my bicycle to work; 15 miles each way. I know all about the idiot behind the wheel.
You have summed it up.

What I mainly took from the article is that too much technology is being used to counter poor design or poor drivers. The more technology like this we have the more some people will think they can be less attentive. Heck, I dated a girl in high school who would put on cruise control and then cross her legs in the seat. :scared:

I would honestly prefer that instead of new technology being placed in cars (sometimes regulated by law) that give people a false sense of security that we focus more on creating better drivers. Proximity alarms and radar controlled cruise control are all nice, but when the idiot with the cell phone feels like he can remove his attention from driving because of it then it is actually a hazard to other drivers.

Good technology only works with good drivers.
 
You know what I hate in terms of redundant technology?

Dipstick-less cars. I'm scowling at you, BMW.
 
You know what I hate in terms of redundant technology?

Dipstick-less cars. I'm scowling at you, BMW.
I didn't even know that existed. Wow, and I thought my VW was bad when I realized the only fluids I could check were wiper fluid, antifreeze/coolant, and oil. Everything else is electric assisted.

So, does BMW now have electric assisted lubrication?
 
Yes, it "tells" you when your oil is low. A sensor would be fine, albeit unnecessary for anyone with a brain. But they have actually taken away the physical dipstick so you have to rely completely on the electronics - this from a manufacturing country that seems second only to Britain in terms of wonky car electricals. I mean, come on.

The Germans can develop a maglev train that does 300 miles an hour, but they can't develop a window switch that lasts more than 4 years or taillight connectors that don't fry. And I have to rely on this to tell me when my car needs oil?
 
You know what I hate in terms of redundant technology?

Dipstick-less cars. I'm scowling at you, BMW.

I agree with you, that's just stupid!

From what I've read though, they did it for "emissions" as apparently gases come out of the tube. Sounds like a minor problem at best.
 
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