Lincoln Navigator, who are you?

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I'm sorry, I don't have a good grasp of the American SUV market.

How about the Cadillac Escalade? Better than the Navigator? A match for the GL?
 
Don't get me wrong, the rest of the interior looks pretty damn good for a Ford, but that gage-cluster just seems like such a horrible afterthought to somehow make the truck seem 'cool' by being quasi-retro. I think it largely comes down to what you like and don't like in a truck, but at least for me, those gages just seem out-of-place in a brand-new vehicle...

Check out the Cadillac's:

2007.cadillac.escalade.20031646-E.jpg


That just seems 'right' overall by comparison to the Lincoln...

---

I just noticed they used a similar setup in the MKX as well...

2007.lincoln.mkx.20102277-E.jpg


If the Navigator's is 'good-ish,' I don't know what to think of this one...

I'm sorry, I don't have a good grasp of the American SUV market.

How about the Cadillac Escalade? Better than the Navigator? A match for the GL?

That largely depends on what you want and who you ask. The GL is pretty notorious here in the US for being a large SUV that can do just about anything rather well, but the price-premium doesn't make it an automatic winner. It did receive SUV of the Year from Motor Trend and it placed in Car and Driver's 5-Best Trucks for 2006, but not everyone immediately fell in love with it either...

Between the three in question, I'd take the Escalade, but if I was actually looking for an SUV with some off-road capability and a fair bit of luxury, I'd probably end up with a Chevrolet Tahoe Z71 anyway. That way, I save money, still look good, and can outrun the luxo-models while off-road...

z71uj5.jpg


Z71 FTW!
 
Sorry, every SUV talked about in this thread is a fugly POS. GM's SUVs suck (minus the SRX Cadillac crossover) so don't get me started on the "omghax GM > Ford" arguement because I'll undoubtably insult quite a few of you here.

GM makes ONE good "SUV", and its actually a crossover. Cadillac SRX
Ford makes ONE good "SUV", and its actually a crossover. Ford Edge
Chrysler maks ZERO good "SUVs".

Having said all of that, having a choice I'd still rather buy a Range Rover or Audi Q7. Both of them do everything +150% better than those American POS. And on top of that I'd rather lose a row of seats and just buy an Infiniti FX35 and be in heaven.

*edit*
BUT, even having said all of that I'd much rather own...

These:
07Expedition_tease.jpg

a021-chevytahoe-0905n_09-21-2005_TG8LV1I.jpg

2007-commander.jpg


Before THIS:
2007SUBARUTRIBECA.jpg
 
Both of them do everything +150% better than those American POS.
Is that in the same way that the F150 is better than the new Silverado?
I like the Q7, but the platforms age is showing. So is the Range Rovers.
JCE3000GT
And on top of that I'd rather lose a row of seats and just buy an Infiniti FX35 and be in heaven.
I'm sure you think the BKMW X5 is/was a good idea as well. What a joke.
YSSMAN
Check out the Cadillac's:
That just seems 'right' overall by comparison to the Lincoln...
I agree that the Cadillac's guages are better, but I think most of the problem is that the gauges in the Lincoln would fit better in say, the Flex, Mustang or Crown Victoria/Town Car; than they do in the 'Gator.
 
So, in response to Toyota copy/pasting the Forester front end onto their products, Subaru is going to start stealing from Chrysler?!
Well, it still looks far better, at least.
 
Is that in the same way that the F150 is better than the new Silverado?
I like the Q7, but the platforms age is showing. So is the Range Rovers.

I'm sure you think the BKMW X5 is/was a good idea as well. What a joke.


Nice try assuming so but no, I hate BMW's X-series. Pointless for anything other than pavement. The new Silverado is on a new platform, the F150 is still using the old platform. Lets wait for this comparison when Ford gets a new platform for the F150.

How is the Q7/Touareg/Cayenne platform showing its age? And last I checked the Range Rover platform(s) are still some of the best in the world. I hate this platform age presumption by people, its only old if it doesn't compete any longer. As far as I'm concerned the Q7/Touareg/Cayenne are still at the top of their game--and if you think about it they really don't HAVE much competition. What the BMW X-series is their competition? Hardly. As for the Range Rover, the Discovery and the Range Rover Sport have more offroad prowess than any of the American offerings. You know, if England wanted to they could develop a pickup truck from a Range Rover chassis and it would be superior to any of the big three in America.
 
How is the Q7/Touraeg/Cayenne platform showing its age?
For starters, it came out back when MG Rover was a happening, financially secure automotive company that didn't speak Chinese but was frequently government controlled.
To VW and Porsche's credit, they did do a pretty good job on the mid-life updates, but the Escalade, for example, is all new. Its the equivalent to MGS2: Substance to MGS3: Snake Eater.
JCE3000GT
I hate this platform age presumption by people, its only old if it doesn't compete any longer.
It still can compete. It just isn't at the top of the ladder anymore. Similar to the Honda S2000, but not as drastic.
JCE3000GT
As far as I'm concerned the Q7/Touraeg/Cayenne are still at the top of their game--and if you think about it they really don't HAVE much competition.
The Touraeg and Q7 compete directly with the Cadillac SRX/GMC Envoy Denali and Escalade, respectively. The Cayenne competed with the ML55 AMG, and now competes with the Range Rover Supercharged, Infiniti FX 45, Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8 and BMW X5 4.8.
JCE3000GT
As for the Range Rover, the Discovery and the Range Rover Sport have more offroad prowess than any of the American offerings.
Oh really? Than what are these for?
250px-Jeep-Grand-Cherokee-WK.jpg
200px-Jeep-Wrangler-Unlimited-X.jpg

I believe that also negates your point on Chrysler having no good SUVs.
And, as much as I loath it, we have this:
250px-Hummer_H2.jpg

JCE3000GT
You know, if England wanted to they could develop a pickup truck from a Range Rover chassis and it would be superior to any of the big three in America.
Oh, I'm sure the unibody chassis the Range Rover now sits on would make a fine alternative to the trucks sold by the Big 3. I'm sure Ford thought must have completely forgot about that when they redesigned the F150 after they bought and debuted the current Range Rover.
 
So, in response to Toyota copy/pasting the Forester front end onto their products, Subaru is going to start stealing from Chrysler?!
Well, it still looks far better, at least.

I don't see it...all I see is a slightly modified Forester front end. Which Chrysler?

And the Pacifica is a totally bogus answer because that is the most derivative generic thing ever.
 
For starters, it came out back when MG Rover was a happening, financially secure automotive company that didn't speak Chinese but was frequently government controlled.
To VW and Porsche's credit, they did do a pretty good job on the mid-life updates, but the Escalade, for example, is all new. Its the equivalent to MGS2: Substance to MGS3: Snake Eater.

It still can compete. It just isn't at the top of the ladder anymore. Similar to the Honda S2000, but not as drastic.

2003 is when the VW VL Platform was introduced. That's only four years old...which isn't old in my opinion.

The Touraeg and Q7 compete directly with the Cadillac SRX/GMC Envoy Denali and Escalade, respectively. The Cayenne competed with the ML55 AMG, and now competes with the Range Rover Supercharged, Infiniti FX 45, Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8 and BMW X5 4.8.

The Escalade is a status symbol, nothing else. That is the ONLY reason why it hasn't been killed off yet. Its rubbish, period. The Cayenne competed? You mean competes, and wins versus the ML55. I've NEVER seen an ML55 on the road in person--but I've seen well over 20~30 Cayennes in person. I think this is going to go nowhere. We'll continue to go back and forth and end up like a couple of other times where I just leave the thread.

Oh really? Than what are these for?
250px-Jeep-Grand-Cherokee-WK.jpg
200px-Jeep-Wrangler-Unlimited-X.jpg

I believe that also negates your point on Chrysler having no good SUVs.

Those are plastic crap boxes. The Jeep Wrangler is the only Jeep that is worth a crap, and only just because it is an offroad machine when properly equipped.


And, as much as I loath it, we have this:
250px-Hummer_H2.jpg

[/SIZE][/FONT]

Take that back! lol

Oh, I'm sure the unibody chassis the Range Rover now sits on would make a fine alternative to the trucks sold by the Big 3. I'm sure Ford thought must have completely forgot about that when they redesigned the F150 after they bought and debuted the current Range Rover.

Is that sarcasm? Ever think that the Range/Land Rover execs maybe agree to any of that kind of thing? There could be a billion reasons why Ford didn't use that platform. Maybe because THEY DIDN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT?

God I hate topics like this, I really need to refrain from posting in them. :grumpy:
 
Pacificas suck, people that own them have no sense in vehicles...yes my mom owns one and yes I reminder her how much it sucks every single day, she tends to agree with me now. Hopefully she gets rid of it soon.

As for the Navigator, you'd be crazy to buy it over an Escalade, the new 900 Escalade is an awesome truck, and they sound uber mean. The whole 900 line is probably the best line of trucks out on the market right now, although I do like the new Tundra quite a bit.

And JCE3000GT you do realize the H2 is a pretty good off road vehicle.
 
And JCE3000GT you do realize the H2 is a pretty good off road vehicle.

Pretty good isn't good enough when alot of its competition (and predecessor) are much better. It may have a small bit of offroad capability--but its still a 95% crapbox.
 
Have you ever driven an H2? They aren't bad, it rides and feels just like a Tahoe. There off road capabilities are pretty good, it's just there aren't many people who buy them for that. But then again most people who buy 4x4's will never use it.
 
Have you ever driven an H2? They aren't bad, it rides and feels just like a Tahoe. There off road capabilities are pretty good, it's just there aren't many people who buy them for that. But then again most people who buy 4x4's will never use it.

I have driven every model of Hummer and they are all not very good at almost everything--minus the H1's offroad capability which is lightyears better than the H2. Yes the H2 CAN go offroad--but I wouldn't put it ahead of the Range Rover or Land Cruiser. The H2 feels like a huge bloated Tahoe that is almost impossible to park. Its slow, and has nothing redeeming in terms of the driver experience. Unless you have a small penis and need something to large to compensate that is. The previous and current generation Tahoe are easily 200% better in every catagory--it isn't even a contest. Hell the Tahoe gets TWICE the gas mileage! The H2 and H3 are just pure rubbish. Don't get me started on the H3--that is 100% the worst GM vehicle by far.

*edit*
Infact I'd easily put the Grand Cherokee ahead of the H2 on offroad capability.
 
The H3 isn't all that bad either. Neither the H2 or the H3 are pure rubbish, just because you don't like them doesn't mean they are bad. And the worst GM car on the market is the Saturn Ion.
 
The Ion? Wow, the Ion isn't that bad. The Ion has more going for it than the H2 or H3.

The H3 is heavy, underpowered, can't tow, can't haul, is ugly (subjective), is uncomfortable, and sucks gas like a redneck sucks beer. It just doesn't have any redeemable qualities. I think even YSS doesn't like it.
 
You haven't driven an Ion, and I'm pretty certain you haven't driven either a H2 or an H3 because you are just going off the misinformed opinion that anti GM people have.

The H3 isn't underpowered it has 242hp and it can tow with it's 4,500 tow rating.

Yes it does have poor mileage and depending on who you talk to it can be ugly or uncomfortable.
 
You haven't driven an Ion, and I'm pretty certain you haven't driven either a H2 or an H3 because you are just going off the misinformed opinion that anti GM people have.

The H3 isn't underpowered it has 242hp and it can tow with it's 4,500 tow rating.

Yes it does have poor mileage and depending on who you talk to it can be ugly or uncomfortable.

I'm not completely anti-GM first of all. Secondly, I really don't care if you believe whether or not I've driven these vehicles. My opinions are valid and still stands. The H3 is underpowered. 242bhp for something that weighs in at a hefty 4700lbs is a bit underpowered. 4,500lbs towing capacity with available equipment--which means you need a towing package--which means the price you pay (which is already WAY TOO HIGH) just got that much higher. BASE price is slightly below $30k and goes all the way upto ~$45k. You can spend less and get more, which makes the H3 worthless in my opinion. And if a car is uncomfortable wouldn't it not matter about anything else? If a vehicle is uncomfortable to drive on a daily basis then why would I want to buy it? Or even ride passenger in it?

The Ion is cheap, gets from A to B, has cheap insurance, seats 4 adults, and isn't uncomfortable. I don't see a problem here. You may not like the way it looks or the center instrument cluster (I know I don't) or for which ever reason but it isn't a bad car. I'd rather own an Ion than a Honda Civic.

Is the Mercedes GL better than the Navigator?

Yes. In. Every. Possible. Way. Except maybe the price.
 
The H3 is only uncomfortable to some people, I didn't find it that bad and I would drive one on a daily bases. Most vehicles need a tow package in order to tow things any ways, I don't think hitches come standard with very many vehicles, although my truck did come standard with a hitch.

The Civic is light years better then the Ion, the Ion is cheap, poorly made, and unreliable. I know at least 3 people that have Ion and they have nothing but bad things to say about them. How they sold is beyond me, if you want a cheap A to B car buy a Kia or Hyundai.

YSSMAN knows more then I do, I'll hand the reigns over to him.
 
The Ion? Wow, the Ion isn't that bad. The Ion has more going for it than the H2 or H3.

The H3 is heavy, underpowered, can't tow, can't haul, is ugly (subjective), is uncomfortable, and sucks gas like a redneck sucks beer. It just doesn't have any redeemable qualities. I think even YSS doesn't like it.

- The Ion was a bad attempt at a great idea, and although it wasn't that bad is quad-coupe form, generally speaking, they were behind the competition. The Cobalt took the Delta platform and thankfully made the best out of it, as the Chevy is dozens of times better than its Saturn cousin.

- On the H3, it largely depends on the models in question. The early ones were a quick way to capitalize on the popularity of the H2, however, the later models with the more powerful I5s are an improvement both inside and out. My biggest criticism of the H3 has always been the lack of power and their decision to go without some kind of V8 power, but now that they are stuffing the 5.3L unit from the Tahoe in the H3 Alpha this year, its pretty much problem-solved for me. In terms of off-road capability, it has been proven by Car and Driver and Motor Trend to be among the best in its class (next-best being the Toyota FJ Cruiser), and a halfway decent successor to the H1 in terms of capability. A street-stock H3 just completed the Baja and won its class, and that certainly is a testament to its prowess off-road...

- On the subject of trucks in general, it largely depends on what you're looking for. For pickups, there is no doubting GM's dominance in that segment with the new GMT900s, but it is not as though Fords are all that bad either. The big problem is that Ford doesn't have enough BHP to make the rather heavy F-150 as competitive as it should be, as it is an otherwise nice-looking truck inside and out. The same thing can be said of their full-size cousins, as Ford pretty much faces the same situation again.

My philosophy with trucks has pretty much been the same for the past few years: If you're going to buy a truck and do truck-like things, by all means, buy a truck. That would mean that vehicles like the Honda Pilot or VW T'reg aren't reasonable 'replacements' for the Chevrolet Tahoe or Ford Expedition. Their body-on-frame stance tends to allow greater capability when it comes to towing and otherwise carrying crap, and they would generally be rated as 'tougher' vehicles based on their origin.

...That being said, my preference when it comes to SUVs largely leads me to the unibody crossovers in most instances, as I would be more interested in the space and AWD, but take that with reservation, looking for a car-like drive and fuel economy. Thereby, SUVs like the SRX, Outlook, Edge, X5, T'Reg, and yes even the oddly likable Patriot seem like reasonable alternatives to their larger brethren.

I dunno. It depends. My family usually goes for the 'trucks' end of the equation. I'm having a helluva time convincing my Grandfather to replace his Tahoe with an Outlook or Acadia, as he keeps looking at the horrendous Pilot and "I guess its better than the Pilot" MDX...
 
If the H3 is getting the 5.3L V8 then it automatically gets the slow underpowered tag taken off from me.

Next, I'm glad to see you YSS compliment the F150 inside and out--I thought I was in the minority in liking the inside and out. Now, the inside of the models with a center console are a different story. The base models with the column shifter and a bench front seat are not appealing what-so-ever. I like the new GMT900 trucks' exterior on both the Chevy and GMC--but I still don't like the interior. The VeeDub "T'reg" as you put it (nice name lol) actually has a pretty stiff construction and can withstand some serious towing. I mean it towed a large airliner. :sly: Having to choose I'd still rather have a crossover SUV. It does everything well and is comfortable...to me that is the REAL SUV.

And on a seperate note, the FJ Cruiser is hideous and also on my "dislike" list. I honestly don't know which is worse the H3 or the FJ Cruiser. They both are in exsistance for almost the exact same reason. To capitalize on a market trend. Even performing good offroad still doesn't mean its an overall good vehicle. You still can't solve the comfort problem, I'm not the only one who's notice the uncomfort from an H3.
 
I don't see it...all I see is a slightly modified Forester front end. Which Chrysler?

And the Pacifica is a totally bogus answer because that is the most derivative generic thing ever.
Town and Country, with some Pacifica thrown in for good measure.
JCE3000GT
2003 is when the VW VL Platform was introduced. That's only four years old...which isn't old in my opinion.
The Cayenne debuted in 2002.
JCE3000GT
The Escalade is a status symbol, nothing else. That is the ONLY reason why it hasn't been killed off yet.
That and they sell by the boatloads.
JCE3000GT
Its rubbish, period.
Based on what?
JCE3000GT
The Cayenne competed? You mean competes, and wins versus the ML55.
That would be the case, yes, as the ML55 was the performance yardstick when the Cayenne came out. The Cayenne Turbo exceeded that stick as the ML55 was set to be discontinued.
JCE3000GT
I've NEVER seen an ML55 on the road in person--but I've seen well over 20~30 Cayennes in person.
There a good reason for that: The ML55 was the top tier model, built in limited quanitities. The Cayenne is offered in multiple models. Comparing the two classes overall would be more fair, as would comparing the Cayenne Turbo sightings to those of the ML55.
JCE3000GT
Those are plastic crap boxes. The Jeep Wrangler is the only Jeep that is worth a crap, and only just because it is an offroad machine when properly equipped.
For a company that can't seem to do anything else right, I've heard nothing but praises for both of them. And I don't even like the new Wrangler that much.
JCE3000GT
Take that back! lol
No, because as much as I think it is a generally terrible product, it is exceedingly good at off-road ability. And I'm quite sure that stock versions of the Grand Cherokee, as fine off-road as they are, would at best be slightly under the H2 in off-road ability. The same applies to the H3 with the newer engine.
JCE3000GT
Is that sarcasm? Ever think that the Range/Land Rover execs maybe agree to any of that kind of thing? There could be a billion reasons why Ford didn't use that platform. Maybe because THEY DIDN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT?
You seemed to have missed the part that made the whole post sarcastic:
Toronado
Oh, I'm sure the unibody chassis the Range Rover now sits on would make a fine alternative to the trucks sold by the Big 3.

JCE3000GT
The H3 is underpowered. 242bhp for something that weighs in at a hefty 4700lbs is a bit underpowered.
For someone who was just singing praises for a Porsche Cayenne, you sure do seem to pick odd reasons to single out a car.
The Cayenne V6 weighed about 4800 pounds and had a 247BHP engine. Yeah, I think the H3 is a piece of trash, but that reason is one of the single oddest ones to choose.
As is this:

JCE3000GT
4,500lbs towing capacity with available equipment--which means you need a towing package--which means the price you pay (which is already WAY TOO HIGH) just got that much higher. BASE price is slightly below $30k and goes all the way upto ~$45k. You can spend less and get more, which makes the H3 worthless in my opinion.
As all of those apply to the Cayenne as well, and in some cases (price) even more so.
JCE3000GT
The Ion is cheap, gets from A to B, has cheap insurance, seats 4 adults, and isn't uncomfortable.
When the Ion hit the market, it was universally lauded as the biggest piece of trash GM was making at the time, and perhaps ever. Remember, this was when the Cavalier was still being sold. It wasn't as good as the SC Coupe it replaced. It wasn't as good as the Cavalier. The build quality and design was atrocious. Yeah it was cheap transportation. The problem was every single other car on the market did that better. The Cobalt is miles away the better of the two, and is actually a pretty competitive product.
Joey D
Pacificas suck, people that own them have no sense in vehicles...yes my mom owns one and yes I reminder her how much it sucks every single day, she tends to agree with me now. Hopefully she gets rid of it soon.
Why do you say that? Other than being rather overpriced, I always thought they were a fine compromise between minivans and station wagons.
 
Have you ever driven an H2? They aren't bad, it rides and feels just like a Tahoe. There off road capabilities are pretty good, it's just there aren't many people who buy them for that. But then again most people who buy 4x4's will never use it.

I could of swore I heard or read somewhere the the H2 Hummer was built on the same platform/base as the Tahoe. That could be why it rides so nice.
 
I could of swore I heard or read somewhere the the H2 Hummer was built on the same platform/base as the Tahoe. That could be why it rides so nice.
It was built on a beefed up version of the GMT800 using a combination of 3 quarter ton and half ton pieces. So, yes.
 
If the H3 is getting the 5.3L V8 then it automatically gets the slow underpowered tag taken off from me.

There isn't any word on pricing yet, but it sounds like a halfway decent deal. Even better in that situation is that you will be able to hook the 5.3L V8 up to a six-speed manual, which is even more awesome... And furthermore, it keeps my hopes up for a Colorado 'Sport' or SS with the 5.3L V8 (300-ish BHP) and the 6-speed manual.

Next, I'm glad to see you YSS compliment the F150 inside and out--I thought I was in the minority in liking the inside and out.

I wouldn't call it best-in-class, but for an American truck it isn't that bad. The first big part of that equation is that it looks good, and then the second being that it actually feels pretty good as well. Both GM and Ford are miles ahead of Dodge in that respect, and I would say that they are ahead of Nissan in that respect as well. But Toyota gives them a good run for the money... But that whole split-dash with the colors is just stupid...

LOON
I could of swore I heard or read somewhere the the H2 Hummer was built on the same platform/base as the Tahoe. That could be why it rides so nice.

As noted above, yes it is the case. When I rode/drove the H2 I didn't find it to substantially better or worse than the Tahoe LT I had been driving before it, it just feels like a larger truck. Given a choice between the two, in most cases I'd take the Tahoe as it can carry and haul more by comparison (even with the 'lesser' engines), but its up to your own tastes to what looks better...
 
There isn't any word on pricing yet, but it sounds like a halfway decent deal. Even better in that situation is that you will be able to hook the 5.3L V8 up to a six-speed manual, which is even more awesome... And furthermore, it keeps my hopes up for a Colorado 'Sport' or SS with the 5.3L V8 (300-ish BHP) and the 6-speed manual.



I wouldn't call it best-in-class, but for an American truck it isn't that bad. The first big part of that equation is that it looks good, and then the second being that it actually feels pretty good as well. Both GM and Ford are miles ahead of Dodge in that respect, and I would say that they are ahead of Nissan in that respect as well. But Toyota gives them a good run for the money... But that whole split-dash with the colors is just stupid...



As noted above, yes it is the case. When I rode/drove the H2 I didn't find it to substantially better or worse than the Tahoe LT I had been driving before it, it just feels like a larger truck. Given a choice between the two, in most cases I'd take the Tahoe as it can carry and haul more by comparison (even with the 'lesser' engines), but its up to your own tastes to what looks better...

That last few sentences makes my point for me on the H2. As for the SS Colorado--that would definately be cool.

The Cayenne debuted in 2002.


Wow, so I was off by one year.

I clicked here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Touareg
Instead of here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_Cayenne

Grasping for straws here?

That and they sell by the boatloads.

Just because something sells "boatloads" doesn't make it any good. Like I said, the Escalade is a STATUS VEHICLE. So of COURSE it will sell "boatloads", everyone's gotta be just like the Jones'.

Based on what?

I'd comment here but I don't know which point my quoted text was addressing.

That would be the case, yes, as the ML55 was the performance yardstick when the Cayenne came out. The Cayenne Turbo exceeded that stick as the ML55 was set to be discontinued.

Obviously a good thing.

There a good reason for that: The ML55 was the top tier model, built in limited quanitities. The Cayenne is offered in multiple models. Comparing the two classes overall would be more fair, as would comparing the Cayenne Turbo sightings to those of the ML55.

Like I said, I've NEVER seen an ML55 in person. When I worked at the car wash I would see 2-3 Cayennes a week and one of those would BE a turbo model.

For a company that can't seem to do anything else right, I've heard nothing but praises for both of them. And I don't even like the new Wrangler that much.

Praises from whom? My roomate's parents traded in their Grand Cherokee because it was rubbish, my other roomate's wife sold her Wranger because she didn't like it, and when I sold cars for a living I took in more Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep products than anything else. And trust me, there were very little praises and more complaints. That would be the REASON why they got traded in.

No, because as much as I think it is a generally terrible product, it is exceedingly good at off-road ability. And I'm quite sure that stock versions of the Grand Cherokee, as fine off-road as they are, would at best be slightly under the H2 in off-road ability. The same applies to the H3 with the newer engine.

I still maintain that the Grand Cherokee is still slightly better offroad than the H2.

You seemed to have missed the part that made the whole post sarcastic:

I guess I don't get your sarcasm. You'll have to explain it to me. This kind of thing happends to me as well.



For someone who was just singing praises for a Porsche Cayenne, you sure do seem to pick odd reasons to single out a car.
The Cayenne V6 weighed about 4800 pounds and had a 247BHP engine. Yeah, I think the H3 is a piece of trash, but that reason is one of the single oddest ones to choose.
As is this:

Buying a V6 Cayenne is the same as buying an H2 or H3, its about status. I don't like the V6 models of this plaftorm for the simple reason that they are underpowered and slow. Didn't expect that one did you? I can pick apart vehicles I like just as easily as ones I do not like.

As all of those apply to the Cayenne as well, and in some cases (price) even more so.

See, here you are wrong. Yes the V6 models of the VW 7L platform are worthless for the most part BUT the other higher powered models aren't. They are luxury SUVs that can do anything AND be fast (speaking of the VW 7L platformers). I don't see the problem there. The 4.2L V8 with its 350bhp and 325lb.ft. of torque in the 5300lb Q7 goes 0-60 in slightly under 7 seconds. The phyically larger Escalade with its larger displacemnt engine matches that--but again it has more power and a much larger engine. Over 2.0 liters and 60bhp or so more and it only manages to match or barely beat it by 0.2~0.4 seconds. I've seen different numbers for the Q7 V8 but both of these two vehicles get to 60mph in around just under 7 seconds. The Q7 V8 is cheaper than the Escalade, more comfortable, is much more luxurious, is much easier to park, and has a much better ride and driver positioning.

And as for the Cayenne V8, its a bloody Porsche so of course you're paying a premium for the badge. But in this case you get a larger 4.8L V8 and 385bhp and 369lb.ft. of torque. That gets the Cayenne S 0-60 in 6.4--which is slightly faster than the Escalade--which has more power. AND the Cayenne S starts at about $58k But as for the 0-60 tests I will call it a draw since they are so close together.

So let's compare prices:
Escalade BASE price: $55,570
Q7 V8 BASE price: $49,900
Cayenne S BASE price: $57,900

I think the Escalade still loses. Have I proved my point yet? The H3 is rubbish and the VW 7L platform isn't.

When the Ion hit the market, it was universally lauded as the biggest piece of trash GM was making at the time, and perhaps ever. Remember, this was when the Cavalier was still being sold. It wasn't as good as the SC Coupe it replaced.


It was what it was, cheap transportation from A to B. Don't try and pretend it was anything else. There are people who's owned them and loved them and people who's owned them and hated them. Its a wash, cheap transportation--that's the point.

It wasn't as good as the Cavalier.
The build quality and design was atrocious. Yeah it was cheap transportation. The problem was every single other car on the market did that better.


The Cavalier? Are you SMOKING CRACK?! That is the worst car GM ever made. The Ion was lightyears better to be in than the Cavalier. Yes they are point A to point B transportation but in this case when I personally know 4 people who've had them and watched them all disintegrate that's saying alot. I mean the DOOR actually fell off of one and after 40k miles one of them had the engine blow--with proper maintenence done to it also. You honestly think the Ion is worse than the Cavalier? That's just sad.

The Cobalt is miles away the better of the two, and is actually a pretty competitive product.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Cobalt is something good from GM. They are headed in the right direction with the Cobalt.

God, I'm sick and tired of having to mess with this font and size when quoting so much text.
 
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