I'm sorry, I don't have a good grasp of the American SUV market.
How about the Cadillac Escalade? Better than the Navigator? A match for the GL?
Is that in the same way that the F150 is better than the new Silverado?Both of them do everything +150% better than those American POS.
I'm sure you think the BKMW X5 is/was a good idea as well. What a joke.JCE3000GTAnd on top of that I'd rather lose a row of seats and just buy an Infiniti FX35 and be in heaven.
I agree that the Cadillac's guages are better, but I think most of the problem is that the gauges in the Lincoln would fit better in say, the Flex, Mustang or Crown Victoria/Town Car; than they do in the 'Gator.YSSMANCheck out the Cadillac's:
That just seems 'right' overall by comparison to the Lincoln...
Is that in the same way that the F150 is better than the new Silverado?
I like the Q7, but the platforms age is showing. So is the Range Rovers.
I'm sure you think the BKMW X5 is/was a good idea as well. What a joke.
For starters, it came out back when MG Rover was a happening, financially secure automotive company that didn't speak Chinese but was frequently government controlled.How is the Q7/Touraeg/Cayenne platform showing its age?
It still can compete. It just isn't at the top of the ladder anymore. Similar to the Honda S2000, but not as drastic.JCE3000GTI hate this platform age presumption by people, its only old if it doesn't compete any longer.
The Touraeg and Q7 compete directly with the Cadillac SRX/GMC Envoy Denali and Escalade, respectively. The Cayenne competed with the ML55 AMG, and now competes with the Range Rover Supercharged, Infiniti FX 45, Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8 and BMW X5 4.8.JCE3000GTAs far as I'm concerned the Q7/Touraeg/Cayenne are still at the top of their game--and if you think about it they really don't HAVE much competition.
Oh really? Than what are these for?JCE3000GTAs for the Range Rover, the Discovery and the Range Rover Sport have more offroad prowess than any of the American offerings.
Oh, I'm sure the unibody chassis the Range Rover now sits on would make a fine alternative to the trucks sold by the Big 3. I'm sure Ford thought must have completely forgot about that when they redesigned the F150 after they bought and debuted the current Range Rover.JCE3000GTYou know, if England wanted to they could develop a pickup truck from a Range Rover chassis and it would be superior to any of the big three in America.
So, in response to Toyota copy/pasting the Forester front end onto their products, Subaru is going to start stealing from Chrysler?!
Well, it still looks far better, at least.
For starters, it came out back when MG Rover was a happening, financially secure automotive company that didn't speak Chinese but was frequently government controlled.
To VW and Porsche's credit, they did do a pretty good job on the mid-life updates, but the Escalade, for example, is all new. Its the equivalent to MGS2: Substance to MGS3: Snake Eater.
It still can compete. It just isn't at the top of the ladder anymore. Similar to the Honda S2000, but not as drastic.
The Touraeg and Q7 compete directly with the Cadillac SRX/GMC Envoy Denali and Escalade, respectively. The Cayenne competed with the ML55 AMG, and now competes with the Range Rover Supercharged, Infiniti FX 45, Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8 and BMW X5 4.8.
Oh really? Than what are these for?
![]()
![]()
I believe that also negates your point on Chrysler having no good SUVs.
And, as much as I loath it, we have this:
![]()
[/SIZE][/FONT]
Oh, I'm sure the unibody chassis the Range Rover now sits on would make a fine alternative to the trucks sold by the Big 3. I'm sure Ford thought must have completely forgot about that when they redesigned the F150 after they bought and debuted the current Range Rover.
And JCE3000GT you do realize the H2 is a pretty good off road vehicle.
Have you ever driven an H2? They aren't bad, it rides and feels just like a Tahoe. There off road capabilities are pretty good, it's just there aren't many people who buy them for that. But then again most people who buy 4x4's will never use it.
You haven't driven an Ion, and I'm pretty certain you haven't driven either a H2 or an H3 because you are just going off the misinformed opinion that anti GM people have.
The H3 isn't underpowered it has 242hp and it can tow with it's 4,500 tow rating.
Yes it does have poor mileage and depending on who you talk to it can be ugly or uncomfortable.
Is the Mercedes GL better than the Navigator?
The Ion? Wow, the Ion isn't that bad. The Ion has more going for it than the H2 or H3.
The H3 is heavy, underpowered, can't tow, can't haul, is ugly (subjective), is uncomfortable, and sucks gas like a redneck sucks beer. It just doesn't have any redeemable qualities. I think even YSS doesn't like it.
Town and Country, with some Pacifica thrown in for good measure.I don't see it...all I see is a slightly modified Forester front end. Which Chrysler?
And the Pacifica is a totally bogus answer because that is the most derivative generic thing ever.
The Cayenne debuted in 2002.JCE3000GT2003 is when the VW VL Platform was introduced. That's only four years old...which isn't old in my opinion.
That and they sell by the boatloads.JCE3000GTThe Escalade is a status symbol, nothing else. That is the ONLY reason why it hasn't been killed off yet.
Based on what?JCE3000GTIts rubbish, period.
That would be the case, yes, as the ML55 was the performance yardstick when the Cayenne came out. The Cayenne Turbo exceeded that stick as the ML55 was set to be discontinued.JCE3000GTThe Cayenne competed? You mean competes, and wins versus the ML55.
There a good reason for that: The ML55 was the top tier model, built in limited quanitities. The Cayenne is offered in multiple models. Comparing the two classes overall would be more fair, as would comparing the Cayenne Turbo sightings to those of the ML55.JCE3000GTI've NEVER seen an ML55 on the road in person--but I've seen well over 20~30 Cayennes in person.
For a company that can't seem to do anything else right, I've heard nothing but praises for both of them. And I don't even like the new Wrangler that much.JCE3000GTThose are plastic crap boxes. The Jeep Wrangler is the only Jeep that is worth a crap, and only just because it is an offroad machine when properly equipped.
No, because as much as I think it is a generally terrible product, it is exceedingly good at off-road ability. And I'm quite sure that stock versions of the Grand Cherokee, as fine off-road as they are, would at best be slightly under the H2 in off-road ability. The same applies to the H3 with the newer engine.JCE3000GTTake that back! lol
You seemed to have missed the part that made the whole post sarcastic:JCE3000GTIs that sarcasm? Ever think that the Range/Land Rover execs maybe agree to any of that kind of thing? There could be a billion reasons why Ford didn't use that platform. Maybe because THEY DIDN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT?
ToronadoOh, I'm sure the unibody chassis the Range Rover now sits on would make a fine alternative to the trucks sold by the Big 3.
For someone who was just singing praises for a Porsche Cayenne, you sure do seem to pick odd reasons to single out a car.JCE3000GTThe H3 is underpowered. 242bhp for something that weighs in at a hefty 4700lbs is a bit underpowered.
As all of those apply to the Cayenne as well, and in some cases (price) even more so.JCE3000GT4,500lbs towing capacity with available equipment--which means you need a towing package--which means the price you pay (which is already WAY TOO HIGH) just got that much higher. BASE price is slightly below $30k and goes all the way upto ~$45k. You can spend less and get more, which makes the H3 worthless in my opinion.
When the Ion hit the market, it was universally lauded as the biggest piece of trash GM was making at the time, and perhaps ever. Remember, this was when the Cavalier was still being sold. It wasn't as good as the SC Coupe it replaced. It wasn't as good as the Cavalier. The build quality and design was atrocious. Yeah it was cheap transportation. The problem was every single other car on the market did that better. The Cobalt is miles away the better of the two, and is actually a pretty competitive product.JCE3000GTThe Ion is cheap, gets from A to B, has cheap insurance, seats 4 adults, and isn't uncomfortable.
Why do you say that? Other than being rather overpriced, I always thought they were a fine compromise between minivans and station wagons.Joey DPacificas suck, people that own them have no sense in vehicles...yes my mom owns one and yes I reminder her how much it sucks every single day, she tends to agree with me now. Hopefully she gets rid of it soon.
Have you ever driven an H2? They aren't bad, it rides and feels just like a Tahoe. There off road capabilities are pretty good, it's just there aren't many people who buy them for that. But then again most people who buy 4x4's will never use it.
It was built on a beefed up version of the GMT800 using a combination of 3 quarter ton and half ton pieces. So, yes.I could of swore I heard or read somewhere the the H2 Hummer was built on the same platform/base as the Tahoe. That could be why it rides so nice.
If the H3 is getting the 5.3L V8 then it automatically gets the slow underpowered tag taken off from me.
Next, I'm glad to see you YSS compliment the F150 inside and out--I thought I was in the minority in liking the inside and out.
LOONI could of swore I heard or read somewhere the the H2 Hummer was built on the same platform/base as the Tahoe. That could be why it rides so nice.
There isn't any word on pricing yet, but it sounds like a halfway decent deal. Even better in that situation is that you will be able to hook the 5.3L V8 up to a six-speed manual, which is even more awesome... And furthermore, it keeps my hopes up for a Colorado 'Sport' or SS with the 5.3L V8 (300-ish BHP) and the 6-speed manual.
I wouldn't call it best-in-class, but for an American truck it isn't that bad. The first big part of that equation is that it looks good, and then the second being that it actually feels pretty good as well. Both GM and Ford are miles ahead of Dodge in that respect, and I would say that they are ahead of Nissan in that respect as well. But Toyota gives them a good run for the money... But that whole split-dash with the colors is just stupid...
As noted above, yes it is the case. When I rode/drove the H2 I didn't find it to substantially better or worse than the Tahoe LT I had been driving before it, it just feels like a larger truck. Given a choice between the two, in most cases I'd take the Tahoe as it can carry and haul more by comparison (even with the 'lesser' engines), but its up to your own tastes to what looks better...
The Cayenne debuted in 2002.
That and they sell by the boatloads.
Based on what?
That would be the case, yes, as the ML55 was the performance yardstick when the Cayenne came out. The Cayenne Turbo exceeded that stick as the ML55 was set to be discontinued.
There a good reason for that: The ML55 was the top tier model, built in limited quanitities. The Cayenne is offered in multiple models. Comparing the two classes overall would be more fair, as would comparing the Cayenne Turbo sightings to those of the ML55.
For a company that can't seem to do anything else right, I've heard nothing but praises for both of them. And I don't even like the new Wrangler that much.
No, because as much as I think it is a generally terrible product, it is exceedingly good at off-road ability. And I'm quite sure that stock versions of the Grand Cherokee, as fine off-road as they are, would at best be slightly under the H2 in off-road ability. The same applies to the H3 with the newer engine.
You seemed to have missed the part that made the whole post sarcastic:
For someone who was just singing praises for a Porsche Cayenne, you sure do seem to pick odd reasons to single out a car.
The Cayenne V6 weighed about 4800 pounds and had a 247BHP engine. Yeah, I think the H3 is a piece of trash, but that reason is one of the single oddest ones to choose.
As is this:
As all of those apply to the Cayenne as well, and in some cases (price) even more so.
When the Ion hit the market, it was universally lauded as the biggest piece of trash GM was making at the time, and perhaps ever. Remember, this was when the Cavalier was still being sold. It wasn't as good as the SC Coupe it replaced.
It wasn't as good as the Cavalier.
The build quality and design was atrocious. Yeah it was cheap transportation. The problem was every single other car on the market did that better.
The Cobalt is miles away the better of the two, and is actually a pretty competitive product.
Wow, I shouldn't have started this.