Many are going faster - Except F1

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I always figured they weren't going any faster because the drivers were already at the limit of passing out during cornering with the current G-forces. That said, I'd be happy if the cars stayed around 2004 pace, having them go slower than previous years just feels so pedestrian.

That's been discussed a thousand times: G-forces are not the reason of the current regulations.

Personally I cannot stand that F1, the pinnacle of motorsports, has been kind of stuck for 10 years...on purpose.
 
One note about Formula 1 now. We have no refuelling. So cars are as heavy as hell compared to years back.
 
avens
That's been discussed a thousand times: G-forces are not the reason of the current regulations.

Personally I cannot stand that F1, the pinnacle of motorsports, has been kind of stuck for 10 years...on purpose.

I agree with this. F1 has led to the invention and development of many technologies over the years, but now teams can only develop things the FIA wants (KERS, DRS) or things that barely shave fractions of a second off (double diffuser, blown exhausts).
If the FIA relax the regulations a little, I think the smaller teams will actually have a chance provided they come up with innovative ideas. The development race is about ideas not just money after all.
 
Back in 2009, Car & Driver asked a few well-known designers to come up with a design for a modern day Can-Am series with the "anything goes" formula that was used during the late 60s-early 70s. Reading about the cars on paper, how much money and how long such a series last before folding all together.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/what-can-am-could-have-been
 
Back in 2009, Car & Driver asked a few well-known designers to come up with a design for a modern day Can-Am series with the "anything goes" formula that was used during the late 60s-early 70s. Reading about the cars on paper, how much money and how long such a series last before folding all together.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/what-can-am-could-have-been

The Pratt & Miller Engineering concept looks a lot like the X2010.
 
You do realise that F1 cars outperform all other race cars, right? No other class can lap a track as fast as an F1 car. They can do 0 - 100 and back to 0 while a Cup car is still getting to 100.

I don't recall F1 cars being able to do all that with in mid 4 seconds, if I recall they can do all that with in 7 to 8 seconds. Don't demean nascar as if they are driving stock V6 fusions, camrys, or a V8 SS. Just wanted to say that.

They get roughly as much power as a Cup car but from a 2.4-liter V8, and don't use anything to boost its power output to do it.

Nascar doesn't have force induction, and it actually far more impressive that they push 850+ bhp out of an old school 350 push rod engine. You do realize that the stroke is the reason for such power with small displacement...well and the bore as well obviously which allows such rpm levels. The compression ratio also is high up there giving it the ability to get the power of a larger displacement engine. Thus you have a high power car, with high revs and allows the engine to cycle much faster making incredible speed. So for a N/A engine of old school tech to be making 850-900bhp that cup does is quite amazing and that was before the electronic fuel injection they started using this year.

I believe commentators during an IndyCar race said the cars were reaching 170 on that road course and that was the fastest they see on road courses, but F1 cars often see 200 on road courses and over that at Monza.

Actually Indy cars can see faster than that on road courses, it all depends on the package and the track. Most road courses are in fact street courses and quite bumpy like Baltimore, and don't have stretches of road that promote nearly 200mph. This isn't Monza, Silverstone, or even the Circuit of the Americas they are racing at.

Also @earth, you are vastly wrong on this. The cars aren't getting faster, they met their peak years ago with speed. The goal now is to be fast but do so at a constant with the advancement of safety technology. The 70s and 80s proved that without plates, the cars can easily push 215 to 220. However, we saw what happens with the cars at these tracks at 190-200mph this year alone, so 15 to 20 miles an hour faster is highly unsafe. All these racing series have managed to do was find a way to run the cars at a faster average track speed during weekends, while still being safe enough for people to survive.
 
It's the pinnacle because many of the best drivers in the world compete in F1 and some of the top teams spend in excess of 200 million pounds a year developing their car, some would argue the pinnacle is NASCAR or IndyCar but they aren't quite as significant globally as F1. It is quite unique though in the way the regulations are changed every year to try and reduce the speed of the cars.

1993 - Grand Prix de Belgique - Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps

Pole position - Alain Prost - 1'47,571




2012 - Grand Prix de Belgique - Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps

Pole Position - Jenson Button - 1'47,573



Indeed, 20 years later and the cars are going slower. Why I don't mind that is beyond me ... :D

I thought the track layout had changed since then because I remember seeing a Senna pole lap from the late 80s and I'm certain the track was different, his time was a lap in the high 1:40s aswell.
 
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I guess this was just a flamebait thread since Earth hasn't returned to reply to any answers.
 
So why was the track record at Indianapolis set in 1996?

F1 cars are still the fastest things round the vast majority of tracks, and as long as that remains, I don't see the issue. If you are at the pinnacle, there is no need to go faster...

Funny you mention the 1996 Indy 500 lap record because Indycar has already announced plans to make the cars fast enough with intentions to beat that record in 2015. They're planning massive tire, aero, and engine upgrades for the cars starting next year and will go even further in 2015. They made it clear that only now and in the near future will safety be at the point where they can go faster then 1996.

Yes, F1 is the fastest, because the rules allow them to build cars faster then everyone, but those rules have consistently been reigned in to the point where they're going considerably slower then they used to. Every other racing series is making large strides in safety, so they can go faster. Im sure F1 has made strides in safety, so why dont they let them go faster? If its a financial issue then F1 really has fallen, as sportscars and MotoGP are similiar prototype models and they're going faster every year.

Nicky Hayden just set the MotoGP top speed record of 210mph at the last race, and NASCAR is now going 219 mph during the race. Havent really seen F1 push big numbers recently
 
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Oh, he has come back, but clearly not read any posts. They're not pushing to go any faster because they're already faster than anything else. F1 doesn't need to go faster, it won't make the racing any better.

F1 isn't about pushing big straight line numbers and if you watched it you would perhaps know that. I don't see NASCAR or Moto GP pulling 6G around corners either but I know why.
 
Nicky Hayden just set the MotoGP top speed record of 210mph at the last race, and NASCAR is now going 219 mph during the race. Havent really seen F1 push big numbers recently

Hayden set the record for that particular track. The record is at Mugello with the old 800s. MotoGP isn't about top speed.

Same with F1, Vettel had one of the slowest speed trap readings in Canada, but he won. The race isn't about who is fastest in the straight, that's what the salt flats are for.
 
Top speed really isn't everything, for me if they look visibly quick then that's enough, they might not go as fast in Moto2 as they do in MotoGP but for me it is more exciting because the bikes are closer. If top speed is so important then why are you watching anything other than drag racing.
 
as sportscars and MotoGP are similiar prototype models and they're going faster every year.

The qualifying times at Le Mans for the Audi R10 in 2008 was 3'23.8xx. The 2009 R15 qualified in 3'23.6xx. Last years R18 e-tron quattro qualified in 3'23.7xx. You may wish to check facts before posting in future.

Nicky Hayden just set the MotoGP top speed record of 210mph at the last race, and NASCAR is now going 219 mph during the race. Havent really seen F1 push big numbers recently
F1 has never been about top speed. If it was, they'd have smaller wings and enclosed wheels. The wheels provide a huge amount of drag, as even without wings, it'll "only" do 246mph.

Anyway, having a high top speed is never the fastest way around a track (with corners,) as Red Bull delight in pointing out every other weekend.
 
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Nicky Hayden just set the MotoGP top speed record of 210mph at the last race, and NASCAR is now going 219 mph during the race. Havent really seen F1 push big numbers recently

If you're talking about the top speed, it's because F1 cars generate a lot of downforce. A lot of downforce means a lot of air resistance, i'm sure you know this. The only reason the cars only hit ~190-200 on most circuits it because of the gearing and the wing angle that the cars run, which are set for the optimum level for overall laptime.

When looking at F1 restrictions you have to consider that times are always improving when the regulations are static. In 2004 the cars were producing nowhere near the same levels of downforce as todays cars. The regulation restrictions have forced the teams down avenues of development that they hadn't even thought about before, and it's breeding innovation. (Similar to how Japanese car companies spent billions developing small engines limited to 276bhp, meaning they now get similar performance from a 3.8 litre V6 as some cars get from a 5+ litre V10 or V12).

The extensive aero development has got to a point where if they opened up the engine regs again, to bring back the 2004 V10s, the cars would be some 5-7 seconds quicker than the 2004 cars, or 3-5 seconds without the slick tyres. The cars are getting faster, they just keep making large step changes in the opposite direction in an effort to improve factors other than speed (Cost, energy/fuel efficiency etc.).

F1 aren't the only ones that do this. Look at Le Mans; todays cars would be dominated by some of those that existed in the Group C era.
 
Look at Le Mans; todays cars would be dominated by some of those that existed in the Group C era.

No. Total opposite. LMP cars now have for their main power approx 450hp (Audi / Toyota) - extra power comes from the hybrid motors. They get all there speed in the corners, see how they attack the Porsche curves.

This week Audi did a 3:22 at Le Mans, that matches a Peugeot 905 from 1992.
 
This week Audi did a 3:22 at Le Mans, that matches a Peugeot 905 from 1992.

Yet, they haven't managed to beat Peugeot's 2008 Qualifying time of 3:18...or their 3:19 qualifying time in 2010.

Toyota better push themselves into beating those times if they want to be at the top of the qualifying time board.
 
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gtone339
Yet, they haven't managed to beat Peugeot's 2008 Qualifying time of 3:18...or their 3:19 qualifying time in 2010.

Toyota better push themselves into beating those times if they want to be at the top if the qualifying time board.

Cars were slowed. Holes, big honking fin...
 
F1 aren't the only ones that do this. Look at Le Mans; todays cars would be dominated by some of those that existed in the Group C era.
Not quite. The current cars are far faster than the "true" Group C cars. But the 3.5L cars were faster and much closer in pace to modern cars, as they had few restrictions on developing downforce-laden big wings and no restricted fuel allotment. The 905 ran 1'21.2 in qualifying (though on a track that was at least a few seconds faster than the current one) and on modern tires it might be a match for the 2008 and 2010 LMP1s. But if you put modern tires on a 905, is it still a "1992 car"?
 

Not really, it wasn't designed for those tires.

It'd be like putting modern tires on a Mustang from the 60's. The suspension setup would be totally wrong if the car is going 5-10 seconds faster a lap.
 
No. Total opposite. LMP cars now have for their main power approx 450hp (Audi / Toyota) - extra power comes from the hybrid motors. They get all there speed in the corners, see how they attack the Porsche curves.

This week Audi did a 3:22 at Le Mans, that matches a Peugeot 905 from 1992.

That's what i'm getting at, the cars are slower on the straights and faster in the corners. It's the same as F1 has been over the last decade or so. This has happened because of restrictive regulations. The underlying pace of the cars has improved due to advancements in other areas, but they could still be so much faster if those restrictions were lifted. In Earth's original post, he cites motorsport series' where they are not introducing such restrictions.

Not quite. The current cars are far faster than the "true" Group C cars. But the 3.5L cars were faster and much closer in pace to modern cars, as they had few restrictions on developing downforce-laden big wings and no restricted fuel allotment. The 905 ran 1'21.2 in qualifying (though on a track that was at least a few seconds faster than the current one) and on modern tires it might be a match for the 2008 and 2010 LMP1s. But if you put modern tires on a 905, is it still a "1992 car"?

See above. The modern F1 cars are faster in the corners due to slick tyres and significantly higher downforce than the 2004/2005 cars which tend to hold most of the ultimate lap records. The only thing they lack is engine performance. Modern Le Mans cars could go so much faster if there were less restrictions in place about engine size, fuel consumption etc. and F1 is the same.

Not really, it wasn't designed for those tires.

It'd be like putting modern tires on a Mustang from the 60's. The suspension setup would be totally wrong if the car is going 5-10 seconds faster a lap.

It isn't just about putting new tyres on an old car, it's combining all of the best parts from different eras. The old car can be re-designed to accomodate modern tyres and aerodynamics just like the new car can be re-designed to accomodate old engines etc.

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I guess my ultimate point is that there has to be a distinction between pace changes due to regulation changes and pace changes due to development and innovation. It's the latter which makes F1 the pinnacle of motorsport. The fact the cars are 'going slower' has nothing to do with a lack of innovation and everything to do with restrictive regulations that have been imposed. Give it enough time with the current regulations and the lap records will be beaten (Bit of a long shot considering they're bringing in more restrictive regulations next year).
 
It isn't just about putting new tyres on an old car, it's combining all of the best parts from different eras. The old car can be re-designed to accomodate modern tyres and aerodynamics just like the new car can be re-designed to accomodate old engines etc.


But if you put modern tires on a 905, is it still a "1992 car"?

I was talking about that.^

Redesigning the car for different technology changes everything.
 
But that's not really the point. It's quite obvious that if the regulations the 905 was built to were used today, the cars would be far far far faster. That's bloody obvious. Technology and development only goes forward in motorsport, never backwards. It's always the regulations that hold the cars back. Always, in every class, in every series. The 905 was as fast as it was because the regulations at the time were favourable for building fast cars.

And in general, it's easiest to restrict power to lower overall lap speeds but that's not always what regulations do. For safety reasons, it's important to slow down cornering speeds just as much as straight-line speeds. The 905 ran with the 3.5L developing ~750 hp, not that different from the 2008-2010 era LMP1s. Speed-trap figures were very similar and since lap times are similar too, we should find that cornering speeds are similar as well. Why then? The newer cars have 18 years of car and tire technology to bank on, why are both cars similar in the corners? It comes down to wing regulations (size, location and angle mostly) more often than not, and in this case that's precisely it. The 905 had comparatively little restrictions on wings and thus had huge wings that generated absurd levels of downforce. Peugeot and Audi couldn't do that, but used innovation and development to match and even surpass older cars. It comes down to regulations vs development, it always does.
The modern F1 cars are faster in the corners due to slick tyres and significantly higher downforce than the 2004/2005 cars which tend to hold most of the ultimate lap records. The only thing they lack is engine performance.
This is not true.

Compare 2006 qualifying times with 2012 qualifying times. Both used the V8 engine, but the 2012 cars have the advantage of 6 years of technological/aero development, a few years of engine development, use of DRS, KERS, slick tires and the freedom to run low fuel levels. The only advantage the 2006 cars have is traction control. But the 2012 cars are no faster. Again, it comes down to wing/diffuser regulations (most importantly the much larger rear wings in 2006) which change every year in the FIA's hope of reducing downforce to slow the cars down in the corners. It's a perpetual battle, as teams develop to gain downforce, the FIA look to take it away through regulation. In this way, cornering speeds have stayed roughly the same through the V8 era. The big change was in 2009, when the rules swapped a lot of downforce for the mechanical grip of slick tires.

The 2004/2005 cars had just as much downforce as modern cars, probably more.

I feel I'm just stating the obvious, but perhaps not.
 
Kill it with fire
 
No. Total opposite. LMP cars now have for their main power approx 450hp (Audi / Toyota) - extra power comes from the hybrid motors. They get all there speed in the corners, see how they attack the Porsche curves.

This week Audi did a 3:22 at Le Mans, that matches a Peugeot 905 from 1992.

The Toyota gets 530BHP from the engine and 300 from the hybrid motor.
The Audi gets 510 and then 101 from two electric motors, so the Audi is over 100 BHP down at times.
 
Kill it with fire

If previous F1 usage of turbos is anything to go by, it'll kill itself with fire.
On F1 Fanatic it says that there is unlimited turbo boost available to teams. While other regulations will undoubtedly strangle the power, I can see at least one team finding a way of getting some serious power out of their turbo engine next year.
 
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