Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots

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Omnis
Maybe your perception of the story is flawed.
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***spoilers****
I thought you guys were dead!

No, all these years you thought we were dead we were alive. But we came here to see you just so we can die today. Now we're really dead. Dead for real this time.
*************

That's not just my perception.

How about the beauty sob stories? Absurdly over the top cringe inducing. He tries to make the stories so horrific that it fails and becomes absurd. Children eaten by ravens? A starving child canabalizing rotting dead corpses?

How about superman Raiden defying all laws of physics in that scene? Why? It's totally totally unnecessary. He's a cool quick agile ninja-like character not superman.

I'm a big Star Wars fan but I still say as a writer Lucas suck. And I love the characters and cool PMC war economy setting in MGS4 but as a writer Kojima sucks. These people have huge egos that prevent them from admiting that they're not good at dialog and narrative and they may need some professional guidance.
 
Care to give an example of a game that delivers a better story?
 


Some additional Solid Sack submissions for the LBP contest:





Sackuarius_by_BasketSnake_800.jpg



Peace. ;)
 
MowTin
***spoilers****
I thought you guys were dead!

No, all these years you thought we were dead we were alive. But we came here to see you just so we can die today. Now we're really dead. Dead for real this time.
*************

That's not just my perception.

How about the beauty sob stories? Absurdly over the top cringe inducing. He tries to make the stories so horrific that it fails and becomes absurd. Children eaten by ravens? A starving child canabalizing rotting dead corpses?

How about superman Raiden defying all laws of physics in that scene? Why? It's totally totally unnecessary. He's a cool quick agile ninja-like character not superman.

I'm a big Star Wars fan but I still say as a writer Lucas suck. And I love the characters and cool PMC war economy setting in MGS4 but as a writer Kojima sucks. These people have huge egos that prevent them from admiting that they're not good at dialog and narrative and they may need some professional guidance.
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I kind of agree,
Raiden still being alive after being crushed by Outer heaven was a knock down for me. Imo the story is fantastic, it all links together brilliantly. The execution could have been better. There was a lot of unneeded dialogue and a lot of dialogue that could have been better and there were story elements I certainly would have changed. The scene at the very end with Big Boss being one, other than to get a final speech to tie up the last remaining loose ends it served no real logical purpose. Personally I'd have preferred a darker ending, it all had a bit too much of a fairy tale happily ever after for me. but again, these are only elements of the story, on the whole I think the story was brilliant. the gameplay was also great, it's just certain areas where it probably should have been executed better.
 
MowTin
......
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I agree about the story (but not the other things). It must be a japanese thing or something, as usual the characters are awesome but the story just too much.

I think the GTA4 story line craps all over MGS4. Actually, i think any of the ps2/ps3 GTA stories are better than any of the MGS ones. They all start off ok then go crazy and incredibly super-unrealistic. Why exactly did Vogin have electricity coming out of his hands in MGS3?
Being huge, pretty and compex doesn't necessarily make a story better.

EDIT: Despite Volgin's electric hands i do like the MGS3 story the best.
 
The MGS series has always involved occultist and technology far advanced from our own. Why is this a surprise, now!? :confused:

However, the stories are presented well, there are times when they do seem redundant or unnecessary, but that's by design. In the past, MGS games sometimes didn't go into proper details and Hideo corrected this.


As far as the story subject matter, I dare you to find a better, more entertaining SCI-FI movie-like story in any game. Some might come close, but certainly not better.
 
I cried during the wedding, anyone else? :crazy:

I wasn't surprised. I bought the game knowing how they are, as much as i'm unhappy with the story, for me the rest of the game more than makes up for it. I probably just don't like SCI-FI stuff :)
 
MowTin
No. Maybe movie of the year, anime of the year but not GAME of the year.

The movie quality is superb. The story quality is good but has serious writing flaws.

***Possible Spoiler***
At the very end the story takes a nose dive when it employs soap opera gimmikery.
****

It loses points for...
1. many QTE scenes
2. Incoherent story and soap opera gimmicks.
3. Loading when going through some doorways.
4. AI that seems unable to follow you through doors.
5. Go-down-hallway gaming with artifical barriers keeping you on the path.
6. Two guards walk side-by-side grab one and the other hears nothing.
7. In QTE scenes geckos can be taken down far more easily than in game.
8. Suicide geckos? Why?
9. Exposions are bad..helicopter...cars...apc...all except for gecko explosions.
10. Fire and snake on fire looks bad.

Again lots of gameplay flaws but overall a great game.

GOTY? GTA IV because Libery City is just that liberty, freedom from hallways and barriers and load scenes. . I think most critics agree.

But MGS4 is a blast and one of the best games ever made.
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GTA IV is a cow turd compared to MGS4.

You're insane.
 
Jeremy Ricci
GTA IV is a cow turd compared to MGS4.

You're insane.
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Yes, I'm insane, the critics are insane and the user ratings are insane. GTA IV is rated higher by both critics and user reviews. Don't forget plenty of users give GTA IV a 0 just out of hate.

True or false.

1. In MGS4 if you slash a guards throat another guard standing a foot away from him won't hear a thing.

2. Those balls with hands on your way to the microwave scene don't follow you through the doors. They just stand there.

3. Enemies respawn.

4. The game is tightly scripted. Just memorize where they will appear to win.

5. Act 3 follow the resistance is terrible. terrible. terrible. period.

Put the boss battles, cutscenes, interactive QTE scenes asside how much sneaking gameplay is there? Sneaking is the core of this game but there is very little of it.

I don't want to be prick and piss on your favorite game because I genuinely enjoyed it. But it is flawed.
 
MowTin
Yes, I'm insane, the critics are insane and the user ratings are insane. GTA IV is rated higher by both critics and user reviews. Don't forget plenty of users give GTA IV a 0 just out of hate.

True or false.

1. In MGS4 if you slash a guards throat another guard standing a foot away from him won't hear a thing.

2. Those balls with hands on your way to the microwave scene don't follow you through the doors. They just stand there.

3. Enemies respawn.

4. The game is tightly scripted. Just memorize where they will appear to win.
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*coughvideogamecough*

MowTin
But it is flawed.
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As opposed to GTAIV which is flawless?
 
MowTin, I think the first flaw in your argument is you seem confident that it's reasonable to compare two games that have almost no similarities in genre, style, gameplay, graphics, sounds, etc.

The second flaw in your argument is that you seem to suggest that critics and users have not given MGS4 perfect scores... or that they must be insane if they did.

MowTin
GTA IV is rated higher by both some critics and some user reviews.
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*fixed

Here are just some of the critics that gave MGS4 a perfect score:

  • AceGamez
  • Console Monster
  • Digital Chumps
  • G4 - X-Play
  • Game Industry News
  • Game Informer
  • Game Revolution
  • GamePro
  • GamerNode
  • GameShark
  • GameSpot
  • Gaming Age
  • Giant Bomb
  • Hardcore Gamer Magazine
  • Hooked Gamers
  • IGN
  • Kombo
  • Lawrence
  • Official Playstation Magazine
  • Playstation Official Magazine UK
  • PSX Extreme
  • Thunderbolt
  • ZTGameDomain

A few gave MGS4 a higher score than GTAIV like:
  • Game Chronicles
  • Game Revolution
  • GamerNode
  • GameTap
  • Gaming Age

As for users, perhaps you may not have checked GameRankings, but the current average user score for GTAIV is 7.9 while the average user score for MGS4 is 8.6 - both are lower than the average critics score.

The difference is even greater at MetaCritic, where the average user score for GTAIV is also 7.9 while the average user score for MGS4 is an impressive 9.1 - it's also worth pointing out that not only has MGS4 gotten higher average user scores than GTAIV, but MGS4 has also received the most user votes, by nearly a 3:1 ratio, despite not being out as long... which is an indicator on it's popularity as well.

Now just so you know, I am not a fan of MGS games, and so not only do I not own any of them, but I do own GTAIV and really enjoy it... even with all it's flaws, and good lord there are many of them.

As far as predicting which will win the most "Game of the Year" awards, I suspect it will be GTAIV, not because it's the best game, but it clearly has a broader range of appeal, especially being a multi-platform release. It also doesn't hurt that GTAIV is an open world game with excellent online gameplay modes.
 
Digital-Nitrate
Here are just some of the critics that gave MGS4 a perfect score:

  • AceGamez
  • Console Monster
  • Digital Chumps
  • G4 - X-Play
  • Game Industry News
  • Game Informer
  • Game Revolution
  • GamePro
  • GamerNode
  • GameShark
  • GameSpot
  • Gaming Age
  • Giant Bomb
  • Hardcore Gamer Magazine
  • Hooked Gamers
  • IGN
  • Kombo
  • Lawrence
  • Official Playstation Magazine
  • Playstation Official Magazine UK
  • PSX Extreme
  • Thunderbolt
  • ZTGameDomain

A few gave MGS4 a higher score than GTAIV like:
  • Game Chronicles
  • Game Revolution
  • GamerNode
  • GameTap
  • Gaming Age
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I knwo thie wasn't intended to be a complete list but one that quickly makes your point would be Famitsu.

Famitsu gave MGS4 a perfect score, and that will make a total of only eight games in their history to get a perfect score. So, they don't hand them out willy nilly for hype.
http://www.n4g.com/ps3/News-153125.aspx
 
Digital-Nitrate
MowTin, I think the first flaw in your argument is you seem confident that it's reasonable to compare two games that have almost no similarities in genre, style, gameplay, graphics, sounds, etc.

The second flaw in your argument is that you seem to suggest that critics and users have not given MGS4 perfect scores... or that they must be insane if they did.

....

As for users, perhaps you may not have checked GameRankings, but the current average user score for GTAIV is 7.9 while the average user score for MGS4 is 8.6 - both are lower than the average critics score.
Click to expand...

I was arguing against someone who said I was "insane" for believing that GTA IV was a better game than MGS4. I only pointed out that the average critic score for GTA IV is higher than MGS4. So, certainly I'm not alone in my insanity.

Edit: Oh, and the user ratings I used were from IGN users. I guess different sources vary.

And you are correct these games belong to different genres but I take that into account. I judge a game by how well it surpases other games in its genre. And also how much the game pushes forward the art of video game making.

I love MSG4 partly because it reminds me of the fun I had when I was a kid playing those old school games. It's a bit of a throwback.

But I just don't see why the maps have to be so damned narrow. I don't see why you need respawning enemies in a stealth game. I don't see why I get load screens when moving around in the act 3 resistance level. These are glaring flaws for a game made in 2008.

But again, great game....I'm going back to play it now....I'm playing a 2nd play through on The Boss Extreme.
 
ROAD_DOGG33J
9.3 for MGS4
9.2 for GTA IV (PS3)
9.1 for GTA IV (Xbox 360)
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IGN average reader rating:

MGS4 8.8
GTA IV 9.1

MetaCritic critic scores:
MGS4 94
GTA IV 98

But I must admit the meta critic user score for GTA4 is lower than MGS4.

Both games get pretty great reviews and they're both great games.
 
That's weird, that's probably the average for the people who wrote reviews. If you click on the review tab and look on the right you'll find where I got my numbers.
 
Earth
Is this the last game?
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I don't know if that needs spoiler tags as Kojima has openly discussed this.

Just in case:
He says it is the end of Solid Snake's story, but that Metal Gear still has a lot to tell.
 
With how the ending went...

Metal Gear Solid 5: Tactical Sponge Bath Action, confirmed!

Without Solid Snake dead (but almost there), Kojima still has wiggle room for something crazy, and I know he is that crazy.
 
I haven't played MGS4 yet, so bear with me if something I say does not make sense. And I am not opposed to being spoiled, as I have read through everything in this thread. So, if you correct me I won't be upset.

At this point I wouldn't be opposed to a Metal Gear Raiden. Maybe a continuation or showing how he went from MGS2 whiner to cyborg ninja.

Plus, there is a ton of time between Portable Ops and Metal Gear. I almost see a game idea where you are Big Boss and you go in to get the Metal Gear technology and then realizing that you are just a tool you then take Metal Gear for yourself to betray the others.

Or Gray Fox has a whole story of his own. I mean, he was actually the top soldier between Big Boss and Solid. Like Solid, he has a haunting violet past.

Or Solidus, he was following his principles and attempting to stop the Patriots and stop America from being a puppet nation. He just had some extreme methods, but as a character he would be playable and enjoyable. Like Gray Fox and Solid, he has a haunting violent past.

There is a lot here that we only know from being told by in-game characters. We could never leave the time frame established between Metal Gear and MGS4 and still have a ton of story to tell.

Heck, we could even have a Liquid story.
 
I've got a problem.

I just finished a 'no kill' playthrough and was also trying not to use any continues. I did die a few times but just loaded the game up again. The problem is everytime i finish an act it lists one continue. I thought i may have accidentally continued in the first and second acts but i know for sure that i didn't in the 4th and 5th but it still listed a continue for every act.

I'm going to try for one of the time limit, 'no continue' playthoughs next. What am i doing wrong?
 
ken2903
I've got a problem.

I just finished a 'no kill' playthrough and was also trying not to use any continues. I did die a few times but just loaded the game up again. The problem is everytime i finish an act it lists one continue. I thought i may have accidentally continued in the first and second acts but i know for sure that i didn't in the 4th and 5th but it still listed a continue for every act.

I'm going to try for one of the time limit, 'no continue' playthoughs next. What am i doing wrong?
Click to expand...

I think it adds up, if you have just one then only that one will show on each stat screen. I could be wrong though since I haven't been paying too much attention to the stat screens
 
MowTin
IGN average reader rating:

MGS4 8.8
GTA IV 9.1

MetaCritic critic scores:
MGS4 94
GTA IV 98
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter what the scores are. It matters what you think. You can't taste your food with someone else's tongue.


FoolKiller
I haven't played MGS4 yet, so bear with me if something I say does not make sense. And I am not opposed to being spoiled, as I have read through everything in this thread. So, if you correct me I won't be upset.

At this point I wouldn't be opposed to a Metal Gear Raiden. Maybe a continuation or showing how he went from MGS2 whiner to cyborg ninja.

Plus, there is a ton of time between Portable Ops and Metal Gear. I almost see a game idea where you are Big Boss and you go in to get the Metal Gear technology and then realizing that you are just a tool you then take Metal Gear for yourself to betray the others.

Or Gray Fox has a whole story of his own. I mean, he was actually the top soldier between Big Boss and Solid. Like Solid, he has a haunting violet past.

Or Solidus, he was following his principles and attempting to stop the Patriots and stop America from being a puppet nation. He just had some extreme methods, but as a character he would be playable and enjoyable. Like Gray Fox and Solid, he has a haunting violent past.

There is a lot here that we only know from being told by in-game characters. We could never leave the time frame established between Metal Gear and MGS4 and still have a ton of story to tell.

Heck, we could even have a Liquid story.
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I don't think there is a need for such a game with Raiden.

I will explain more in spoiler tags, and will also re-post my Raiden analysis from this thread.

First, the Analysis:

Remember when you input your data into the computer terminal during MGS2, and at the end of the game Raiden pulls out his dogtags with all that info (your info) on it? There's good reason for that. Like I said, Raiden represents you, the player. Or at least he does up to a point.

Raiden was "bishounen" to appeal to both sexes. He's also a child-soldier, trained by Solidus in previous wars. Translated, that is the equivalent of us (most of us) being child-gamers and having experience with Metal Gear, MGS, and video games in general.

When you first use Raiden, he tries to be Snake, just as you have played Snake's role all along. When it comes down to it, however, he just isn't Snake. Like you, he will never be Snake. That's why everything he does while assuming this role is either a failure or is done in vain. I see Raiden's tortured nude scene as a representation of the vulnerability and the stripping-down (sorry for the pun) of this charade of "being Snake."

Raiden finally finds his identity after taking Olga's sword and learning that he is being manipulated by the Patriots. At this point, Raiden and Kojima leave us in the dust. Raiden now knows more than we do; he ascends beyond the player and our wanting to play Snake's role.

When we are playing MGS4 as Snake, Snake has some very close calls and near death experiences. As players, we fear for the worst, and anxiously hope for relief. We think: "how can Snake die? There must be something I can do!" And then Raiden comes to the rescue. Raiden represents us and what we would do. This time, however, he really represents the player, and not the player as Snake. As MGS4 goes on and Solid Snake gets older and more vulnerable, we begin to fall out of his identity and his role. At the end, you are immersed in the story from your own perspective instead of Snake's. Raiden is the key for us to be us and not merely a character, and so we evolve just as Raiden evolved.

When the patriots and their actions are revealed, it makes us question what and who is really right or wrong and good or evil. It makes us too feel used by the Patriots for playing Snake's role when Snake has been used by them all along. In the end, everyone either dies or is set free from the events. It is thanks to Raiden's brilliant character design that we too can have closure and be free from this story and our attachments. Just like Raiden took off and returned to peace, we can explore other games and stories (and ourselves as individuals), and have our own peace with ourselves and with the Metal Gear series.

And now for why I disagree with your game idea:

Raiden's story has finished. The whole point of MGS4 was to bring closure for all of the characters. Raiden now has his family and his own identity. It is unlikely that he would ever deviate from this new role, especially to become another conflict protagonist. For him to do so would severely cheapen his character design and the closure we gained at the end of MGS4. The only stories left open are Otacon's and Sunny's, and I don't have a clue what they would go on to do after Snake dies.
 
Solid Fro
With how the ending went...

Metal Gear Solid 5: Tactical Sponge Bath Action, confirmed!

Without Solid Snake dead (but almost there), Kojima still has wiggle room for something crazy, and I know he is that crazy.
Click to expand...

I thought Kojima was calling it quits after MGS4?
 
Omnis
And now for why I disagree with your game idea:

Raiden's story has finished. The whole point of MGS4 was to bring closure for all of the characters. Raiden now has his family and his own identity. It is unlikely that he would ever deviate from this new role, especially to become another conflict protagonist. For him to do so would severely cheapen his character design and the closure we gained at the end of MGS4. The only stories left open are Otacon's and Sunny's, and I don't have a clue what they would go on to do after Snake dies.
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Like I said, I hadn't played MGS4 yet, so I was shooting in the dark on that one.

And any story that continues Otacon's story would probably end with him crying on Metal Gear to make it rust apart. That or a semi-incestuos pron game.

I am actually all for a Gray Fox storyline though.

ROAD_DOGG33J
I thought Kojima was calling it quits after MGS4?
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He said his next game would not be Metal Gear related (people are hoping for Zone of the Enders 3). He has also said that MGS4 is Snake's final mission.

Then after the rumormill got going to say he was done with Metal Gear he came back and said that MGS4 is Snake's final mission but the Metal Gear saga has a lot of story that can still be told. That is not a yes or no for a future Metal Gear.

If I had to guess I would say that we shouldn't expect a new Metal Gear game this generation of consoles.

Or he could be done and just playing coy, because I think I have come to not expect anything straight forward from the man.
 
Only if you beat the game, serious spoilers ahead

After beating MGS4 personally I would like the Metal Gear games to stop and would hope Kojima would move on to somthing new which I think he is.

Metal Gear games have been around for 20 years, and there is 8 total I think. Isn't that enough for one story line?

My opinion on the Metal Gear story is that it is a rip off of the movie Escape to New York. I can't give Kojima the credit others give him when some of the basic story elements in Metal Gear are stolen from the Escape form New York movie, like Fox Die, kidnapping presidents etc.

Some other story elements are just silly, like Liquid Snake taking over Ocelot just because Ocelot has Liquid's arm?

Alot of the time when playing through the games it seems he is just making up the story along the way. Experienced writers can do this and get away with it, but it's obvious he does it and it distracts from the story.

Every Metal Gear Solid game is the same, you're Snake, you fight a few Super Villains throughout the game and defeat the final boss guy at the end while the ultra complicated story line is fed to you in bits and pieces along the way.

The ending of MGS4 felt too quick and wrong. And burning Solid Snake's face when EVA stood in the fire for 5 minutes and got out untouched? Kojima burned Snake's face and made him old to try and make you lose any attachment you may have had to him, to prepare you for his departure. What a cop out. Then letting us see Big Boss for a few minutes then killing him off. Then letting us see zero for a few minutes then killing him off. I hated that. All the parts came together and then were broken apart too quickly.

All I can say is please, no more Metal Gear games. I'm certain Kojima can make another great IP, without having to copy anything, he just needs to do it. 20 years of Metal Gear is enough. Let's not keep it going for 30 years.

And overall I give MGS4 a 9.5 out of 10. It just followed the path of previous Metal Gear games too closely without enough innovation to get a perfect score from me despite the high production value etc. The ending was a letdown for me as well.
 
I finished the game just now with the title INCHWORM. Doesn't sound to good now does it? ;)

Edit:
ah, also got the title hyena and scorpion
 

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