Most disappointed after Le Mans 24

[ANTthePANT79]

So after watching this weekends Le Mans 24hr race I am super annoyed with GT5. So many things that are nowhere near reality! Yet they claim of "real" driving simulator... I'm on hour 20 of the Le Mans 24hr race and I watched the race rather diligently this weekend as well and it raised a few issues for me...

1. AI
- They follow the same crappy line lap after lap, i'm shocked that they don't do exactly the same lap time each lap as well.
- Also, they are glued to the spot, I rubbed against them a few times and went spinning wildly whilst they just carried on driving exactly how they were before.
- Spun out in their path once too and they just plowed right through me, not even braking.
- They are ridiculously slow, I am 7 laps ahead in my '89 group C car racing against state of the art LMP1 cars...
- When you are racing on of them and get too close to them they just slow down completely. But get in front of them and they'll match you all the way round. I tested it one lap with the Bently Speed 8, followed him down the first straight and got a top speed of 300km/h. Then went past him and I hit 360 and he flew past me. And it's not slipstream either, when i was behind him i was literally pushing him.

2. Race
- Tire wear is absolutely shocking in this game! The Audi's were going through three fuel stops before pitting this weekend! I get 5 laps before needing tires, that's like 17 minutes of racing... The Audi's went for over 2 hours with their tires! I get three hot laps in before having to pit! What happened to improving your lap times lap after lap and slowly seeing the impact of tire wear? I remember GT4 being like this.
- Slip stream is also bad, I should be calling it super, nitro, turbo boost stream! Cos in GT5 if you are in behind someone and in top gear you get an extra 30% power! I watched the LMP cars SSing each other down the main straights and it didn't help nearly as much...
- More cars please! How epic was Le Mans with its 56 car grid? I wish they'd put even half of that in GT5!
- Classes, classes, classes! What's the point of the 2 GTE vipers that are always in the LM races? Obstacles? Annoyances? I dunno... Why not have classes and award money for each! That'd make it fun to drive a GTE car or an LMP2 car and see how you fair.
- Qualifying? Practice? etc... make the race more realistic, not just 6th place on the grid and off you go! They could extend this to all the races too. They can use the current race softs as qualifying tires, cos that's all they're really good for anyway.


In concluding, I just feel that there is so much they have left out of the game , they're on the 5th installment of it and somethings haven't been improved since the first... Come on PD, this game could be so much better!

Any thoughts guys? anything to add?

Ant

 

[iLex]

Most, if not all of this has been extensively discussed on this forum.

Don't get me wrong, I was dreaming of a game that simulates the 24 Heures du Mans as much as you did when I watched this weekend, but... well... check the threads on each of your wishes.

 

[ANTthePANT79]

Yeah, I seen one or two threads on different issues... I just thought I'd put a collection of them in one thread... It's a really sad situation I find myself in... very little desire to play now and I spent money on a DFGT not so long ago... LOL

 

[iLex]

Yeah, I seen one or two threads on different issues... I just thought I'd put a collection of them in one thread... It's a really sad situation I find myself in... very little desire to play now and I spent money on a DFGT not so long ago... LOL

Yes, I get what you mean. However, it is best to look at GT5 as a nice 'track day simulator' and just have fun driving the cars, especially with a DFGT
I mostly do seasonals and practice mode on different tracks.

 

[Schwartz]

Welcome To Gran Turismo. This is a racing game although we spend most of our time beating dead horses. .

 

[Vegard]

I felt just like you do before i came to accept that the GT series, contrary to the claim, is not a simulator. I think most of us had too high expectations to GT5 and you know what they say about high expectations.

You have to take the GT series massive popularity into consideration.
Players of all ages and skill level enjoy the game.
If the AI drove fast enough to challenge a class A driver there would be a vast majority claiming that the AI was too fast, and rightly so.

You have to make compromises when your target group is as broad as that of the GT series.

V

 

[ANTthePANT79]

They should have different difficulties then... Have the stupid slow AI in beginner and have the good AI in pro or something... I'm sick of having to race a lowly MX5 vs race cars just to have a close race, it's stupid... Difficulties cater for everyone...

 

[StevenDunn99]

It is an old game but get the LeMans 24hr game on the PS2, it captured the spirit of the race beautifully and in a way the GT series never will.

 

[Samus]

All good points that have been well covered but for me the one thing that makes these races boring in GT5 more than anything else is the fact there is no endurance to it. It's just a race that lasts 24 hours. What do I mean by that? Well the main issue is complete lack of physical damage and mechanical issues. In the real race you have to drive it as an endurance, you can't go hell for leather for 24 hours because you need the car to last mechanically and you can't afford to crash heavily. If you do you can end up in the garage for two hours having damage repaired or 30 minutes fitting a new clutch. Or maybe like some of the GT cars, you need new brake discs 18 hours in.

GT5 has none of that, you can drive flat out every lap without fear of crashing or having a mechanical problem. Except for running out of fuel every car will drone round for 24 hours, pitting in every few laps for tyres and fuel until the end. There is no endurance to it, it's just a very long, predictable race. That to me is what above else makes endurance races so utterly boring in GT5.

 

[JohnyPiston]

Personally I was more disappointed with the "Forza Motorsport" banners in just about the most visible parts of the circuit. Where were the Gran Turismo banners? I tell you what, i have been around long enough to watch MSFT just about crush all opposition in the areas where there was direct competition. Anyone remember Netscape? No? But I bet you know Internet Explorer! There are plenty such examples available and if Sony does not catch a wake up call, it will be too late. I do not think I will ever abandon GT and PS, but Forza/XBOX is now on the shopping list. Its like they said in that movie: "Shhhhhhhhhh do you hear it? Its the winds of change my friend ..."

 

[Exorcet]

Group C is faster than LMP. Especially on high speed tracks.

 

[Vitzio]

Personally I was more disappointed with the "Forza Motorsport" banners in just about the most visible parts of the circuit. Where were the Gran Turismo banners? I tell you what, i have been around long enough to watch MSFT just about crush all opposition in the areas where there was direct competition. Anyone remember Netscape? No? But I bet you know Internet Explorer! There are plenty such examples available and if Sony does not catch a wake up call, it will be too late. I do not think I will ever abandon GT and PS, but Forza/XBOX is now on the shopping list. Its like they said in that movie: "Shhhhhhhhhh do you hear it? Its the winds of change my friend ..."

Le Mans 2010. La Sarthe was covered in them. Also, I don't see the problem with Forza advertisements on La Sarthe. Forza's just trying to get their name out there to the true motorsport fans like GT did in 2010. I don't really see how this is disappointing to you.

 

[Samus]

Group C is faster than LMP. Especially on high speed tracks.

Don't think so, between 1990 and 1993 the track was slightly different but 13.600 km long all together and had the chicanes. The fastest quali time by a Group C car was 3:21.209 in 1992 and 3:27.47 was the fastest in the race in 1993. The newest version of the track since 2007 is 13.629 km and arguably slower because of the tighter first turn amongst others. However the quickest quali time was 3:18.513 in 2008 and 3:19.074 in the race in 2010.

The Group C cars have the power and speed but they don't have the downforce anything like the current LMP cars.

 

[Jawehawk]

Personally I was more disappointed with the "Forza Motorsport" banners in just about the most visible parts of the circuit. Where were the Gran Turismo banners? I tell you what, i have been around long enough to watch MSFT just about crush all opposition in the areas where there was direct competition. Anyone remember Netscape? No? But I bet you know Internet Explorer! There are plenty such examples available and if Sony does not catch a wake up call, it will be too late. I do not think I will ever abandon GT and PS, but Forza/XBOX is now on the shopping list. Its like they said in that movie: "Shhhhhhhhhh do you hear it? Its the winds of change my friend ..."

Your entire point is rendered useless by the fact that Gran Turismo was mentioned several times due to GT Acadamy, where as I didn't hear Forza being mentioned even once. And even then, commercials will only get you that far...

 

[Michael88]

The Group C cars have the power and speed but they don't have the downforce anything like the current LMP cars.

Group C Cars had more power, higher top speed, better acceleration, less weight AND more downforce. They used ground force with giant diffusers which is pretty much outlawed in LMP today.
For example the Jaguar XJR-12 had 3386 lbs of downforce at 150 mph and 6020 at 200.

 

[analog]

All good points that have been well covered but for me the one thing that makes these races boring in GT5 more than anything else is the fact there is no endurance to it. It's just a race that lasts 24 hours. What do I mean by that? Well the main issue is complete lack of physical damage and mechanical issues. In the real race you have to drive it as an endurance, you can't go hell for leather for 24 hours because you need the car to last mechanically and you can't afford to crash heavily. If you do you can end up in the garage for two hours having damage repaired or 30 minutes fitting a new clutch. Or maybe like some of the GT cars, you need new brake discs 18 hours in.

GT5 has none of that, you can drive flat out every lap without fear of crashing or having a mechanical problem. Except for running out of fuel every car will drone round for 24 hours, pitting in every few laps for tyres and fuel until the end. There is no endurance to it, it's just a very long, predictable race. That to me is what above else makes endurance races so utterly boring in GT5.

This, it's an endurance for the player, not a true endurance race.
Imagine it with heavy damage and limping back to the pit to do the repairs yourself in a separate game mode where you play as a mechanic (or at least having to wait a long time before being able to drive again).
Incorporate it with B-Spec (as it was in GT4) where you're reliant on your fellow drivers who can then equally screw it up with serious consequences.
Either watching it in real time or speed it up (where you 'go to sleep' like a real driver) and receive an update when it's your stint again.
Do I see this happen? Nope.

 

[Samus]

Group C Cars had more power, higher top speed, better acceleration, less weight AND more downforce. They used ground force with giant diffusers which is pretty much outlawed in LMP today.
For example the Jaguar XJR-12 had 3386 lbs of downforce at 150 mph and 6020 at 200.

Well let me rephrase that then, more sophisticated downforce combined with sophisticated traction control systems, makes them much faster in the traction zones.

 

[JohnyPiston]

Your entire point is rendered useless by the fact that Gran Turismo was mentioned several times due to GT Acadamy, where as I didn't hear Forza being mentioned even once. And even then, commercials will only get you that far...

Well, i do not know if it would be rendered useless. I guess if you were listening to the commentary you might appreciate the GTA plug but i was not. In which case, how can my opinion be rendered useless? But, judging by your signature, I had better not argue ...

 

[PinappleJuice]

On the lines of Forza advertisement, anyone have a photo of the GT Acadamy boys going past the Forza banner..

 

[Michael88]

Well let me rephrase that then, more sophisticated downforce

There is no such thing as sophisticated downforce. Downforce = downforce. Group C cars just used a different system to create downforce - complex underbody tunnels to create a low pressure area underneath the car.

combined with sophisticated traction control systems, makes them much faster in the traction zones.

Traction control is just for safety, drivers back then knew how to get the all the power on the street without any driving aids, and we're talking about 1000hp or more.

Qualifying lap of the Nissan R91CK,LeMans with chicanes, 3:27, thats fast enough to compete with the top LMGTP cars.
And thats with manual H-pattern transmission, clutch, no aids, no power steering and smaller runoff-areas.

 

[Samus]

When I say more sophisticated I mean they have a better understanding of airflow over the cars than they did 20 years ago, just look at how sleek they are now compared to then. It's quite clear that something about the current cars is much better when as you say they have much less power (Some 400bhp+) but still do better/comparible laptimes.

 

[Pluxtheduck]

RAM RAM RAM... Just saying...

 

[Samus]

RAM RAM RAM... Just saying...

RAM (or lack of it) is certainly a major issue for some of the problems, but not all of them. The main one is tyres, we've had this discussion many times over but the issue is that GT has three racing tyres in the whole game, one fits all. So the racing hard tyre you fit to a Honda Accord is the same racing hard tyre you fit to an LMP car. They have the same base grip level and the same base wear level, affected only by how you drive the car. What we need is a wider variety of tyres, specific to the cars we're driving. So in this case, we need much harder, endurance tyres for the cars in endurance races.

OTT slipstream also has nothing to do with RAM.

 

[Tier 2 Racing]

- Classes, classes, classes! What's the point of the 2 GTE vipers that are always in the LM races? Obstacles? Annoyances? I dunno... Why not have classes and award money for each! That'd make it fun to drive a GTE car or an LMP2 car and see how you fair.
Ant

Excellent idea I haven't really noticed anyone bring up before. This would be a great option in an event builder. But, there are several things PD would need to address in order to be enjoyable.

- Increase grid size. 16 cars minimum. Have a option to pick how many classes, such as a max of 3 and grid size.

- AI Strength. Like arcade mode, an option to pick the strength of the AI, although, AI needs to be redone completely.

- Car list. PD would need to clean up, organize and define the overall car list. Basically an extension of the online choices with LMP1, Group C, DTM, etc. The overall car list would need to reflect this.

Would take some work and so forethought before implementing, but I really like the concept. Would also be great for creating your own online racing series with rules already in place by the game, no need to police the players yourselves.

 

[Samus]

I also do find it annoying how they always mix classes in races, Group C and even older cars like the Toyota 7 and Chapparel against modern LMPs. It looks silly for one, and not very realistic. The problem and I suspect reason they do it is because they have so few current/modern race cars. So they need to update their roster so when we do the 24 Hours Race it can be full of 2011/2 cars and feel like we're in the real race, not some random 'classics vs modern' version of the race.

Stick with the same era classes PD, not mixing them!

 

[che69velle]

a difficulty slider would be a vast improvement.

 

[Michael88]

It's quite clear that something about the current cars is much better when as you say they have much less power (Some 400bhp+) but still do better/comparible laptimes.

I can tell your what it is: better rubber- tire technology. Group-C cars with state of the art tire technology would eat LMGTP's for breakfast.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Yeah it's mostly down to the tires. The main difference between the pre-chicane and post-chicane cars is the type of aerodynamics.

The pre-chicane cars are characterized by sleak, streamlined bodies with low-profile wings emphasizing high speed stability and low drag:

Whereas the post-chicane cars have much larger wings and much more intensive aerodynamics to emphasize lower-speed downforce and agility, while increasing drag:

So basically, while the early group C prototypes produced a lot of downforce at high speed, they didn't produce much at low speed. The later group c, and every prototype since then has emphasized low speed downforce to match the slower track. I think the big difference in lap times, as said above, is tire technology.

Put a Peugeot 905B on modern rubber and I bet it would annihilate the contemporary prototypes, if it finished the race

Likewise, remove the chicanes, and put some modern tires on a Sauber C9 and the lap times would be truly shocking I bet.

 

[DaveTheStalker]

I'd rather rank up in Seasonal Events than complete the 9 Hours of Boredom and 24 Hours of Monotony X 2. I've been doing the 9 Hours of Boredom for 3 days now, one "stint" at a time. I'm an hour and a half into it. If we didn't have the Suspend feature, I wouldn't even bother.

Simon, I get what you're saying about attrition. The big problem is that it wouldn't apply to the AI. They can do no wrong!

 

[Jav]

A-Spec endurance racing is pointless, anywhere from 2 to 24 hours of total boredom and monotony.
-PD has never bother to introduce parity or balance of performance to any of their "series".
-Tire wear is just stupid.
-AI is a joke.
-The rewards for making such a race just don't make any justice to the event itself.
-Slip stream effect is way too exagerated.
-Lack of classes make the event even more irrelevant.
-Car choice just don't make any sense, you get a random collection of cars that never saw the track togheter and just plain don't belong together.
These and many more flaws make endurance racing in A-Spec pointless, souless and monotonous.