Motorcycles in GT5?

[buickgnx88]

Who knows...but what's funny is how little he posts here. It says he's a new member, but if you look at his posting history it starts back in June 2007!

 

[Motominded]

I think Motominded was actually wanting puppeteer to explain his point since he hasn't yet.

Correct.

how about we talk about the screens you posted earlier..
specifically the one of the caparo and the MV...
how is this not an interesting scenario?
sure, those 2 monsters on the snow is asking for a mess, but apart from that its interesting... id like to see how things would fare..
which is faster off the line? what sorts of tracks favor one or the other? its a game, these sorts of comparisons are fun.. nobody is going to get hurt..

as long GT and TT are separate we cant find out.. both games are LESS cool and interesting as a result... why do we want either to be LESS cool and interesting?

Huh, i just don't get how you think that makes sense.

I would post a pic of what happens when a bike + car meet but i don't feel like getting banned.

On top of that......anyone that uses "LESS COOL", in a sentance gets no respect from me.

Comparing a Caparo to an F4......*shock*

Are you serious? Do understand that a car has 4 tires and can brake much faster than a bike. On top of that you are talking about a Caparo which qualifies as more than a car. It's a freakin F3 car with headlights.

ok lets see.....here is a lap comparo at Macua.
Formula 3 Lap Record: 2:11.744 (Marko Asmer, 2007/Dallara-Mercedes-HWA)

Motorcycle Lap Record: 2:26.096 (John McGuinness, 2007/Honda CBR1000RR)


McGuinness is a multiple time TT winner and one of the best street riders ever. So that lap is as good as a bike can go. Yet it's that much slower. You dont need GT to show use the obvious.

Tourist Trophy 2......I want it and there is no other solution.

But again racing bikes against cars is the same as racing boats against cars....it's just to different and cant be compared.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

You may have missed a part of his point.

Thank You.👍

 

[puppeteer]

Its ok guys... dont panic... im back...!

I think the main issue here is a matter of perspective...
I see GT as a platform for simulation.
I think most of you see GT as a game with a distinct start and end..

Whats the difference?
As a template I look x-plane and rfactor... both highly regarded simulators.. and both really just a shell...
different planes, different cars... different terrain, different tracks...
all these things just plug into the main engines... and the "games" emerge out of the combinations... some realistic.. some fanciful...
the scenarios may or may not be realistic, but the physics will be...

would anyone make the case that helicopters shouldn't be included in x-plane? because its a game about "planes"?

----

"Ive been on a bike before but not once did I think it was "perfectley capable" to "blast" down the streets at a "insane speed" on Detroits bumpy ass roads or any road for that matter."

Ok... lets clarify...
the "perfectly capable, blasting, insane speeds" comment related to John stating that you couldn't run a race bike flat out down the mulsanne straight...

Yes.. I ride.. infact I only have bikes these days...
my main ride is a Ducati 848.. not that fastest bike in the world, but no slouch..
the other is an old RD350 café racer...

Now.. I can comfortably hit 250 on country roads in australia.. im not talking major slick freeways, just regular gravel edge australian rural straights..
Ive never been to LeMans so I cant vouch for the condition of the mulsanne straight, but i dont think its a stretch to imagine that a road used by low clearance LMP1 cars is going to be a pothole fest compared to the roads im talking about..
now imagine further, that you arnt on a stock roadbike, but on a full blown enduro racer, thats been geared, and had its suspension setup specifically for that straight... Im pretty sure you could run as fast as the bike will let you... call me crazy..

....

Ok...
on to the caparo... yup.. bad example, but it was the only interesting screenshot that was posted, so it seemed like a good point to start the discussion..

but there are dozens other examples that could be much closer..
Im not the only one who thinks its interesting..
try this segment from 5th gear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXTeGMFf4Ko

or this cool little clipd from the 80s... freddie spencer 500GP vs streetbike vs streetcar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAMm0GMghN8&feature=related

or this bit of old school top gear...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BqWPVHjl6Y&feature=related

...

we can also play the laptime game...
lets look at my local.. Eastern creek...

as expected... its a car on top..
A1GP: 1.19.142
faster than the fastest bike...
500GP: 1.30.360

but then we look at some of the other classes...
Out top national classes for instance...
V8 supercars: 1:31.7301
Aus Superbikes: 1.31.655

both faster than the
Carrera Cup: 1:34.2011
and
Ferrari GT360: 1.33.4054

shocking everything except the A1GP is beaten by a go kart...
Superkart: 1.28.7243

...

Now you may see something simply incomparable, but I see and endless source of fun debates being settled with bravado and ghost replays...

...

lastly.. most of the events in GT arnt realistic..
stock street cars racing competitively in showroom stock form.. IT JUST DOESNT HAPPEN!
This is the majority of the races in GT..
but do we care? well by and large no... if we wanted a motorsport simulation we would all be playing something else... the car dudes would be playing F1CE or NASCAR... bike guys would be playing MotoGP or SBK...
but we arnt, were playing GT and TT... because they are essentially games about fanciful comparisons...

by combining them we expand that range...

and dont say its like putting boats in... thats a facetious argument and you know it..

 

[hozes]

gt is all about cars...i dont wanna see motorcycles...dont waste time to modelling motors...if pd has enough time to add motors, stop it and use that time for ;
--adding more tracks ( like monza motegi lemans mugello or macau )
-- improving the game physics perfection ( still ok but it can be better )
-- weather option...( and if enough time dynamic weather; day night changes in gt legends, a living track with audiance or etc...)
--online improvements to perfect

the biggest challenger for the GT is FORZA...and is PD challenges with turn10, so focus on the cars and the car physics,damage modelling and weather....

 

[RACECAR]

Its ok guys... dont panic... im back...!

I think the main issue here is a matter of perspective...
I see GT as a platform for simulation.
I think most of you see GT as a game with a distinct start and end..

You pose an interesting point about perspective. I would like to think that for us, thats all we've known since GT1 is cars. Its what we're used to and we wouldn't want it any other way while you see it as potentially a pure simulation platform(at least thats what I'm reading). At this point, we would most likely have a conflict of interests that are now noticed.

Ive never been to LeMans so I cant vouch for the condition of the mulsanne straight, but i dont think its a stretch to imagine that a road used by low clearance LMP1 cars is going to be a pothole fest compared to the roads im talking about..

I honestly don't see any possibility for there to be potholes on a public road used twice a year for Motorsports.

lastly.. most of the events in GT arnt realistic..
stock street cars racing competitively in showroom stock form.. IT JUST DOESNT HAPPEN!

Correction: They may look that way, but they are by no means stock. I should know because I learned this the hard way.

This is the majority of the races in GT..
but do we care? well by and large no... if we wanted a motorsport simulation we would all be playing something else... the car dudes would be playing F1CE or NASCAR... bike guys would be playing MotoGP or SBK...
but we arnt, were playing GT and TT... because they are essentially games about fanciful comparisons...

by combining them we expand that range...

So you basically want what happens every once in a while on GT5 so you can do it every time?(Notice the emphasis on you) Well, there's a problem with that. Its called "The Real Driving Simulator" for a reason: its a "Driving" Simulator, its about "driving". The problem we have(or at least I have) with bikes in a GT game and not a TT game is that unless your a bike fan as well, They don't appeal to car enthusiasts. Despite its short comings, the one constant thing it has stayed true to is appealing to the fans of automobiles as its car crazy creator has intended. TT is suppose to do the same to bike enthusiasts as "The Real Riding Simulator".

And how exactly do you know we play just because they are "fancible" Comparisons? and I honestly don't what comparison "range" we are spreading or at least thats not what I see discussed anywehre else. I not so sure that would be the reason we play. I know the reason I play GT and any game with racing for that matter is because I love racing so I know I not up for fancible comparisons.

 

[Mr P510]

Sony have NEVER said bikes will be in GT5.
Mods need to close this thread asap.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

we can also play the laptime game...
lets look at my local.. Eastern creek...

as expected... its a car on top..
A1GP: 1.19.142
faster than the fastest bike...
500GP: 1.30.360

but then we look at some of the other classes...
Out top national classes for instance...
V8 supercars: 1:31.7301
Aus Superbikes: 1.31.655

both faster than the
Carrera Cup: 1:34.2011
and
Ferrari GT360: 1.33.4054

shocking everything except the A1GP is beaten by a go kart...
Superkart: 1.28.7243

All this has a perfectly logical explanation. Eastern Creek is, by comparison, a short and fairly twisty track -IE slow. Light vehicles, such as bikes, or a gocart, will benefit from this. Make the comparison at a course where speeds are higher, and the cars can use their overall speed better, instead of mostly braking, the outcome will be different.
Take Brno as an example;
F1: 1:36.77 (McLaren 2002) Just as a comparison!
A1: 1:47.296 (2006)
GT1: 1:57.584 (Saleen S7R 2006)
GT2: 2:03.266 (Ferrari F430 GT2 2007)
MotoGP: 1:58.157 (Ducati 2006)
SBK: 2:00.674 (Yamaha 2007)

So I think we can say that the fastest bikes in the world compares to cars in the GT1/DTM/SuperGT/V8 Supercars class (wich are not at all the fastest cars in the world). These are all sort of production based cars, whereas at least MotoGP is to other bikes what F1 is to other cars. They share the same number of wheels, but that´s it.

lastly.. most of the events in GT arnt realistic..
stock street cars racing competitively in showroom stock form.. IT JUST DOESNT HAPPEN!
This is the majority of the races in GT..
but do we care? well by and large no... if we wanted a motorsport simulation we would all be playing something else... the car dudes would be playing F1CE or NASCAR... bike guys would be playing MotoGP or SBK...
but we arnt, were playing GT and TT... because they are essentially games about fanciful comparisons...

by combining them we expand that range...

and dont say its like putting boats in... thats a facetious argument and you know it..

"Fanciful"? Well... I do like to do lapcomparisons between things like the McLaren F1 GTR and the Mercedes CLK-LM, but is that "fanciful" in that respect? They are no doubt fancy cars, but they are still cars, and from the same era and class.
All this car vs bike is just apples and oranges in my book. Boats, bikes, planes, lawnmowers...who cares, as long as they´re not in any GT game!

 

[puppeteer]

Sony have NEVER said bikes will be in GT5.
Mods need to close this thread asap.

Can someone find this link for me, because all I can find is Kaz saying hes perfectly open to the idea, and the only reason they didnt do it last time was hardware limitations of the PS2..
Until someone can this thread is perfectly valid.

I honestly don't see any possibility for there to be potholes on a public road used twice a year for Motorsports.

yeah, sorry thats what i meant (i got my is/isnt backwards, my bad)..
Its used twice a year? whats the other event?..

...

Team666, I dont see how the Brno lap times say anything different? They reflect more or less the same balance as Eastern Creek..
How is it Apples and Oranges?
The fact that we have laptimes to compare means that the two things are *comparable*... they CAN be compared.
Anyone got some Brno laptimes for lawnmowers?... maybe a ocean racing powerboat?
no?.... anyone?..... bueller"
Ahh thats right, because they dont run lawnmowers and powerboats on the same tracks and cars and bikes... anyone suggesting that would a fool..

 

[RACECAR]

yeah, sorry thats what i meant (i got my is/isnt backwards, my bad)..
Its used twice a year? whats the other event?..

The other event is a race for bikes which is also 24 hours. The rest of the year though, just the Star/finish straight and the Esses are used on the bugatti circuit.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

Can someone find this link for me, because all I can find is Kaz saying hes perfectly open to the idea, and the only reason they didnt do it last time was hardware limitations of the PS2..
Until someone can this thread is perfectly valid.

How can there possibly be a link that proves Sony has NEVER confirmed bikes for GT?

You can't prove a negative. And there's a HUGE gap between having an idea, and confirming the butchering of your biggest franchise for the satisfaction of a few.

Team666, I dont see how the Brno lap times say anything different? They reflect more or less the same balance as Eastern Creek..
How is it Apples and Oranges?
The fact that we have laptimes to compare means that the two things are *comparable*... they CAN be compared.
Anyone got some Brno laptimes for lawnmowers?... maybe a ocean racing powerboat?
no?.... anyone?..... bueller"
Ahh thats right, because they dont run lawnmowers and powerboats on the same tracks and cars and bikes... anyone suggesting that would a fool..

GT is not about comparing laptimes, it's not a stat contest. It's about automobile racing, pure and simple.

When did a bike ever win the ADAC 24h of Nurburgring?

Any motorcycle ever lost the World GT Championship?

How about competing along cars at ANY sanctioned motorsport?

That's right...there aren't ANY examples. Figures they have more sense to know...

 

[puppeteer]

yeah, my bad (again) i skim read

"Sony have NEVER said bikes will be in GT5.
Mods need to close this thread asap."
as
"Sony said bikes will NEVER be in GT5.
Mods need to close this thread asap."

I think it was probably the righteous confidence of the second thread shutting line that made me read it that way...
Why would we need to close the thread ASAP if there hadnt been official word?

...

The only opinion I can find from PD is this:
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3149458

1UP: I know some of the same art assets were used in Tourist Trophy from Gran Turismo. From here do you see it becoming its own franchise, or is this more an experiment to see how it goes and then you'll decide at that point?

KY: Back at the studio, Polyphony, we do have test machines where we can display both cars and bikes on the same tracks, just for experiment purposes. Perhaps maybe in the future we might have a title where we have both. This time around, the reason why they've been separated is only a technical reason, with these performance limitations with the PlayStation 2.
...

Unless someone can find a stronger more recent contradictory statement from PD then this a valid thread topic..

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Team666, I dont see how the Brno lap times say anything different? They reflect more or less the same balance as Eastern Creek..
How is it Apples and Oranges?
The fact that we have laptimes to compare means that the two things are *comparable*... they CAN be compared.
Anyone got some Brno laptimes for lawnmowers?... maybe a ocean racing powerboat?
no?.... anyone?..... bueller"
Ahh thats right, because they dont run lawnmowers and powerboats on the same tracks and cars and bikes... anyone suggesting that would a fool..

What I´m saying is that they are NOT comparable! Sure, going off classes, then they are, but what´s the validity in that?
Top cars vs top bikes, street bikes vs, street cars etc. But that is not fair to the bikes, since they don´t match up!
And we all know this, so why even bother comparing them to eachother?
And bikes and cars ARE apples and oranges, in that sence! They do compare in certain areas, but in the end, they are not the same thing, and should not be compared.
And my point with the boats and lawnmowers was just that - they are vehicles, they can be raced, but what is the point in comparing them?
Yes, that is how stupid the idea of having bikes in GT is!

KY: Back at the studio, Polyphony, we do have test machines where we can display both cars and bikes on the same tracks, just for experiment purposes. Perhaps maybe in the future we might have a title where we have both. This time around, the reason why they've been separated is only a technical reason, with these performance limitations with the PlayStation 2.

Absolutley! As long as it´s not called Gran Turismo, it´s fine by me! I wouldn´t want the franchise to be destroyed by something as stupid as this, so having a separate title would be the way to go.

 

[Dave A]

The whole idea of including bikes detracting from the cars hasn't sunk in yet. Once again, I understand your point, but Gran Turismo is purely about cars and it shouldn't be any other way.

Sure maybe PD might make a game that has both, but don't make it Gran Turismo, because it GT has never been about bikes. Bikes are only comparable to cars because they have wheels, engines and move. Boats are only comparable to cars becuse they have engines and move. Horses are only comparable to cars because they move. See where I'm getting at.

If you're going to include something against the grain in one aspect, why not do it in others. Including bikes detracts from the cars. They serve only to answer questions of "which is faster, this bike or this car" they will offer nothing complimentary to each other in races or in the structure of the game.

Saying bikes are comparable to cars because you can find a car + bike combination where lap times are similar could be changed to cars and horses are comparable because there will be a car + horse combination where the lap times are similar. And I'd put money on that being true.

 

[Motominded]

i cant believe he goes on. He just doen't get it. It really not worth adding anything anymore.

I agree with him \/

Tourist Trophy 2

 

[buickgnx88]

And I'll ante up PGR4

 

[puppeteer]

Motominded: dont threadcrap, If you have nothing to contribute, dont post.. quoting your own superbold post like we didnt read it the first time is pointless..

buickgnx88: its an arcade racer, whats your point..

==

You guys keep pointing to Tourist Trophy 2 as some sort of evidence that im completely off my rocker..
You point to a game that has NEVER been announced, has never even been hinted at by PD... That as far as anyone knows, DOESNY EXIST!.. as evidence that I dont get it..

I point to a running E3 demo WITH BIKES, bearing the holy Gran Turismo name, displayed as a vision of what GT might become, and I dont get it...

I point to a quote by the series creator, saying hes completely open to the idea, with no counterquote.. and I dont get it..

 

[RUMBLERIDER]

Please NO MOTORCYCLES

 

[Mr P510]

Puppeteer you can provide lap comparisons,times,whatever,as much as you like but I'll stick with my(and the majority of other GT fans) that it will be a sad day when PD include bloody bikes.

Probably why its called....Granturismo.
Even before the game was made most people associated Granturismo with cars.

 

[buickgnx88]

I agree, it will be a sad day when GT has bikes in it.

Oh, and the reason I suggested PGR4, is because it already has cars and bikes in it.

And if you don't have a 360....there's always Midnight Club 3!

 

[Dave A]

You guys keep pointing to Tourist Trophy 2 as some sort of evidence that im completely off my rocker..
You point to a game that has NEVER been announced, has never even been hinted at by PD... That as far as anyone knows, DOESNY EXIST!.. as evidence that I dont get it..

I point to a running E3 demo WITH BIKES, bearing the holy Gran Turismo name, displayed as a vision of what GT might become, and I dont get it...

I point to a quote by the series creator, saying hes completely open to the idea, with no counterquote.. and I dont get it..

I'm perfectly willing to have an open debate with you, but you've completley ignored my counter argument. As for that first GT:HD tech demo with the bikes that was never said to be a vision of what GT would become, it was simply a technical excercise. Vision GT was the vision of what GT would become, the E3 demo with bikes was not Vision GT nor was it a basis for a GT game. Hence the reason why once GT:HD Classic, the actual upgraded GT4 based game was being made it had no bikes in it. It was possible for them to include them, we'd seen that, but they didn't. There is nothing to suggest the we will see bikes in Gran Turismo, there is a quote to suggest we might see them against cars in a title of some sort but nothing to say it would be GT besides a quickly knocked up tech demo that has very little bearing on the actual series itself.

If you want the debate to continue in a reasonable way you need to answer all the counter arguments, not pick and choose. If you answer the reasonable counter arguments the debate will likey follow a reasonable course, instead your picking the one liners and as a result the debate is focusing on them.

 

[Motominded]

Motominded: dont threadcrap, If you have nothing to contribute, dont post.. quoting your own superbold post like we didnt read it the first time is pointless..

buickgnx88: its an arcade racer, whats your point..

==

You guys keep pointing to Tourist Trophy 2 as some sort of evidence that im completely off my rocker..
You point to a game that has NEVER been announced, has never even been hinted at by PD... That as far as anyone knows, DOESNY EXIST!.. as evidence that I dont get it..

I point to a running E3 demo WITH BIKES, bearing the holy Gran Turismo name, displayed as a vision of what GT might become, and I dont get it...

I point to a quote by the series creator, saying hes completely open to the idea, with no counterquote.. and I dont get it..

Because your argument makes no sense. Your Fifth gear videos are just demonstrations. They show nothing and even they will agree cars and bikes should never be on the same race tracks at once. ESPECIALLY IN A SIMULATOR. Kaz is open to any idea....he'd say that if they told him to put planes in the game. Doesn't mean he'll do it. They prolly had this debate at PD a long time ago and the only reason that car & bike combo was made is cause it was needed to throw something together quick and TT was still a fresh release and the most current one from PD. It was advertising to sell TT if anything.

I never thread bash but your argument doesn't make a bit of sense. In a world of arcade games....fine do what ever you want. Have flying cars for all i care.
But GT is a REAL WORLD SIMULATOR. And in the real world we don't put bikes and cars on the track at once. You keep saying if GT wont do it we will never know.....Yeah we don't need to because we already do know.

TT2 might not have been mentioned yet but it is very likely to develop into something. TT was a success and the was the best Driving Simulator of 2006. It will happen because profit makes things happen. GT is a Car game and needs to stay as such. You have no argument because at the end of the day, the closest you could come is comparing a time trial lap and not actually racing because cars cant race bikes....that's all there is to it.

 

[Mooman117]

I for one would like to see bikes included. Although it would probably be better to see tt2rather than bikes in gt5 simply because of the extra work involved and extra delays. I don't think racing cars and bikes at the same time is a great idea. It doesn't often happen in real life and its a bit naff (my opinion) in pgr4. Bikes v bikes good, cars v cars good, just not both together.

On a seperate point the isle of man TT average speed lap record is over 130mph (set by J Mcguinness last year). The fastest lap at Le mans in 2006 was 232.658 kph about 144mph (see http://news.windingroad.com/auto-news/interesting-facts-about-audis-diesel-win-at-le-mans for more info). It not a stretch to say that the roads around the IOM are more bumpy and generally less raceable than those that make up the Le Mans, most of which are dedicated circuit tarmac. So any dedicated mechanic could get a modern bike to work on a relatively good public road at high speed. Most 1000cc bikes are capable of 180mph out of the crate.

 

[puppeteer]

OK... so lets restate our basic arguments...

Dave, correct me If im wrong but your main case is that bikes and cars should not race against eachother..

I agree.. Ive never said that all races in GT should have a combination of cars and bikes..

Nor have I said that bikes should be jumping over cars and dodging semi trailers and then the riders should jump off the bike onto the roof of the cars, punch the driver and then morph into a horse either..

I do think that they are so similar that they should be in the same toy box..
They share the same tracks, they are raced under the same conditions (but not at the same time) all the core mechanics of the game are the same.. A next gen GT and next gen TT are essentially the same game.

By combining them you are able to simulate a number of things you couldn't before..

Actually lets use one specific example... a Nurburgring Touristenfahrten session..
Public access, cars and bikes on track at the same time hotlapping...

This is the primary way most people experiance the Nurburgring, for many people THE core track of both GT4 and TT..

To propperly simulate the experiance we need online play with both cars and bikes on track simultaniously.. not racing, but lapping..

The only way to do this is to combine GT and TT..

 

[buickgnx88]

Okay, let's compromise. Let's have GT and TT be separate games, BUT have a third game where they are combined for people such as yourself who want both in the same game.

 

[puppeteer]

so split product A into parts B & C.... then also sell product A aswell?

 

[buickgnx88]

No, sell products A & B, and then combine them into C for people who want both.

 

[puppeteer]

So do A & B sell as discount games? or is C the most expensive game in PS history?

 

[Rykon Zero]

I'd rather have the horse morphing.

 

[buickgnx88]

GT5 and TT2 come out normally for normal price. Then later on, when they go down in price, come out with a game that is a combo of the two for normal price, but call it something else. Otherwise, offer bikes as DLC for people who want it. Under no circumstances should they sell GT with bikes as standard.