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Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Cap'n Jack, Dec 2, 2004.
Jacky Greffier - Jim Clark?
Off the top of my head and with some help from Wikipedia to fill in the stats:
Tome Sneva - 1978 USAC Championship Car Series (No wins, 6 Second place finishes, 4 Third place finishes out of 18 races)
Erik Comas - 1999 All-Japan Grand Touring Car Championship GT500 class (1 Win, 1 Second place finish, 2 Third place finishes out of 7 races)
Ryo Michigami - 2000 1999 All-Japan Grand Touring Car Championship GT500 Class (No wins, 4 Second place finishes in 7 races)
Hinori Takeuchi & Yuji Tachikawa - 2001 All-Japan Grand Touring Car Championship GT500 Class (No Wins, 2 Second place finishes, 1 Third place finish in 7 races)
Satoshi Motoyama & Michael Krum - 2003 All-Japan Grand Touring Car Championship GT500 Class (No Wins, 2 Second place finishes, 2 Third place finishes in 7 races)
Masataka Yanagida & Mitsuhiro Kinos***a - 2003 All-Japan Grand Touring Car Championship GT300 class (No wins, no further information regarding podium placings in 7 races)
I think the 2020 champion in Japanese Super Formula doesn't count, because they split each weekend into a Qualifying Race and the Main Race itself and on one weekend he swept both, which technically means he scored two race wins on the season instead of just one...
Also, one thing to note about Tom Sneva's USAC championship in 1978 was that it was partially helped by USAC'S points system at the time, which was a set amount for every 100 miles of a race and awarded ZERO points for DNFs. Sneva drove for Team Penske and had a very reliable car that year, scoring podiums in all three of the 500 Mile races, which meant that he technically scored more points in those races than most of the race winners that season.
Automatic censorship shines again.
I just remembered that Mehdi Bennani added himself to the list of winless champions just last year in TCR Europe, along with Matt Crafton in 2019 Trucks and Austin Dillon in the 2013 Nationwide Series.
Emilio Alzamora won the 1999 125cc World Championship with no wins.
However long it lasts, Narain Karthikeyan has more points than George Russell.
Only once has a V12 powered a driver to an F1 WDC: Senna with Honda power in 1991.
Didn't Fangio's car have a V12 in 1957? Otherwise presumably all the other 12 cylinders were Ferrari boxers?
Works Maserati 250Fs had a V12 from 1957 onwards, Fangio won WDC in 1957 and 1958 with the works team using that engine.
Well, that's a little bit wrong.
Maserati did field a V-12 on sporadic basis as I recall. It had issues and never won a race.
Fangio's 250F had a six cylinder engine, winning his final championship in 1957.
Worse, it's very wrong. Behra got the V12, and only once. The engine worked so well it destroyed the rear tyres.
Huh, obviously misremembered that then.
It's worth recalling that the 4.5 liter 1951 Ferrari 375/F1 V-12 ended the long reign of Alfa Romeo and the 1.5 liter supercharged straight 8. It was clearly a better car. Although not winning the WDC, Ferrari would have won the manufacturers championship had there been one.
In 1964, Surtees won the WDC, and Ferrari won the manufacturers championship. As I recall, he had a choice of V-8 or V-12, but preferred the V-8, leaving the V-12 to Bandini.
I'm sure I've mentioned this before, for all his reputation as a great overtaker only 2 of Ayrton Senna's 41 F1 victories came from below 3rd on the grid: the 1990 US GP at Phoenix (started 5th), and the 1993 European GP at Donington (started 4th).
It is no longer possible to break Max Verstappen's record as youngest F1 driver, as the FIA have put an 18-year-old restriction for getting a super license. Max was 17 years old when he started his first Grand Prix.
F1 Records Max Verstappen was the "youngest to":
Enter an F1 weekend: (Japan 2014 - 17y 00m 04d)
Start an F1 race: (Australia 2015 - 17y 05m 15d)
Score a point: (Malaysia 2015 - 17y 05m 29d)
Lead a Lap: (Spain 2016 - 18y 07m 15d)
Win: (Spain 2016 - 18y 07m 15d)
Podium: (Spain 2016 - 18y 07m 15d)
Fastest Lap: (Brazil 2016 - 19y 01m 14d)
F1 Records Max Verstappen has already failed to become the "youngest to":
Score a Pole Position: (4th on the list, 7 and a bit months too old in Hungary 2019)
Become World Champion: (Verstappen will pass Vettel's Abu Dhabi 2010 age on 10th February 2021)
Verstappen related "youngest to" records that have been broken already:
Start on the Front Row of the grid: (Belgium 2016 - 18y 10m 29d)
Record taken by Lance Stroll: (Italy 2017 - 18y 10m 05d)
Is there not one race where Senna won from something like 14th or 15th? It's either that or he maybe finished 2nd. I can't quite think of the race though.
Senna's wins by Grid Position:
1st - 29
2nd - 5
3rd - 5
4th - 1
5th - 1
Phoenix 1990 is the only F1 race Senna won from outside the first two rows, which surprises me that it's never been lower.
Biggest climbs include:
Japan 1987 (7th to 2nd), Monaco 1984 (13th to 2nd), Austria 1985 (14th to 2nd), South Africa 1984 (13th to 6th), Belgium 1984 (19th to 6th)
This is all completely skewed though by the fact that Senna was one of the best Qualifiers of all time. The 1985 Austrian GP was the only time outside of his Toleman days where he was ever lower than 8th on the grid - and he still came 2nd in that race.
Comparing this to other Qualifying geniuses, Michael Schumacher has 5 wins from lower than 5th on the grid (China 2006 - 6th, Canada 2004 - 6th, Portugal 1993 - 6th, USA 2003 - 7th and Belgium 1995 - 16th). Win record holder Lewis Hamilton has scored only 3 victories from lower than 5th on the grid - (Turkey 2020 - 6th, Britain 2014 - 6th, Germany 2018 - 14th).
So to summarise, if you're good at qualifying and make sure to always be in a good car - you're very rarely going to have to climb up from a ridiculous grid slot to win a race.
Of course these stats don't take into account anyone having to "do a Perez" and battle through the pack having lost a load of positions early on. I don't have any numbers on that so I cannot comment on if these drivers have had to battle adversity through the races (and Hamilton is the only one I have seen every race of, so is the only one I could at least search for easily), so that's for someone else wanting to dive through the archives.
Perhaps you're thinking of Suzuka 1988 where he dropped down to 14th at the start and then went on to win.
Legitimately, this would suggest that critics of Vettel who suggest that he can only win from the front should also reappraise Schumacher, Senna, Hamilton et al or at least cut Vettel a bit of slack. For that 2010-13 period, he did what they all did too; win from the front.
Yes, this is the race I was thinking of. Thanks.
I think it's a bit more nuanced than that - of the drivers you name I think of Vettel as the least able to pass on the way back to the lead after pitstops or on-track shenanigans. Quali-to-final-position is certainly a useful benchmark but it doesn't take account of the in-race performance.
Vettel may have only ever won from the top 3 on the grid, but he does have 5 Podiums from double-digit grid slots. Belgium 2012 (10th-2nd), Turkey 2020 (11th-3rd), USA 2015 (13th-3rd), Germany 2019 (20th-2nd) and Abu Dhabi 2012 (24th-3rd). That Abu Dhabi race incidentally is the second-highest gain in places to score a podium in (non-Indianapolis 500) history, only beaten by Onofre Marimon's 28th to 3rd climb in the 1954 British GP.
John Watson (x2), Niki Lauda, Sebastian Vettel(x2), Juan-Pablo Montoya, Jacques Laffite, Onofre Marimon, Emerson Fittipaldi, Ron Flockhart, Teo Fabi, Kimi Raikkonen, Lewis Hamilton (x3), Jarno Trulli, Carlos Sainz and Rubens Barrichello are the (non-Indy) drivers to have got onto the podium from starting 20th or lower on the grid.
Schumacher's biggest climb incidentally was that Belgium 1995 race from 16th to 1st.
I'm not saying it does, I only suggested looking harder at it. The (take an example) "Senna good, Vettel bad" for doing the exact same thing, winning from the front, doesn't tell the whole story either; at least you provided a supplementary reason for it in your post:
On the other hand, the cars he has been driving were never as dominant as the Mercedes' of recent of the Ferraris of the early to mid 2000s. Mark Webber was far from a bad driver (a WEC world champion, no less) and he couldn't make it to the 2nd place of the WDC even once during the four years Vettel won the championship, whereas in the case of especially Hamilton and Schumacher a 1-2 result at the end of the season has been more of a rule than an exception. And I'd rate Webber a lot higher than Barrichello, Massa or Bottas.
Both of Watson's podiums from 20th or lower were victories. Victories at street circuits. Big respect for those achievements.
Correction: Long Beach 1983 may have been a win from 23rd, but Detroit 1983 from 21st only (lol) yielded a 3rd place. His other win on the list of long climbs was from 17th on the grid at - oh - Detroit in 1982.
Good research. Not bad results though, considering how far back he was on street circuits.
Four drivers have climbed 18 places at Monaco.
Andrea de Adamich (25-7) 1973, Guy Edwards (26-8) 1974, Eric Bernard (24-6) 1990 and Fernando Alonso (24-6) 2010.
Teo Fabi climbed from 23rd to 3rd in Detroit in 1984, so I think we can safely say that scoring a Podium from lower than 20th at Detroit isn't anything special because it's been done so many times. Every time Detroit held a GP under the "US East" banner, someone finished on the podium having climbed at least 16 places from their grid slot.
If I recall correctly, team mates Watson and Lauda went from back to front together at Long Beach. That was impressive to see in person, really thrilling for the crowd.
Adam Cooper just last year wrote it up as "F1's most incredible win from the back".
McLaren used to really suck at qualifying in their final years before the turbocharged TAG engines came in, but still put up competitive numbers in the races. I think it had something to do with their superior tire endurance.
Lauda's solitary 9th starting spot was their best in all of 1983, and this was for a team with a grand total of 4 podiums and a 1-2 result. The prior year, Watson was a title contender, but would only have scored 1 point if they were awarded for qualifying results, his best start being a 6th at Montreal.
Since the Monaco GP only allowed 20 entries at the time, this weakness really bit them when neither car made the show in the 1983 edition.