Need everyone's input on this situation. 2 Possible outcomes

[TheCracker]

Perfectionist much?

Edit: People should buy more cars with their heart rather than their head.

Well, if you just want something sporty and open top to pose around in, you might as well get yourself any of the hacked 3-series BMW's, Saab 900's, Audi A4's, Astra, Golf or Mini's etc and have a modicum of practicality thrown in too. If you want your open-top motoring to be as pleasurable a driving experience as possible, then you should opt for one of the proven winners in that field. IMO.

 

[Famine]

You are still blaming the car for the driver being under skilled.

No I'm not.

If you don't know the limits of your own car or how to properly control it, you shouldn't be driving like that.

Congratulations. You've just solved all road accidents ever.

Not to mention you shouldn't be driving at the limits of an S2000 on public roads anyways.

You can reach any car's limits on the public road legally, easily.

It is not the cars fault in any way, shape or form.

Who said it was?

All I said was that in in bad weather the limits are smaller for every car. In the case of the S2000 it is tricky at the limit. In the case of the MX-5 it isn't tricky at the limit. Combined with bad weather bringing the limits closer, the S2000 is likely to be trickier than the MX-5 and sooner. Or, if you'd like it to be in a positive light, you need more ability to safely drive the S2000 in bad weather.

For the average driver, the MX-5 is likely to be the better car. For the average driver in a country where it rains 2 days in 3, the MX-5 is likely to be the safer car.

 

[Paulie]

Well, if you just want something sporty and open top to pose around in, you might as well get yourself any of the hacked 3-series BMW's, Saab 900's, Audi A4's, Astra, Golf or Mini's etc and have a modicum of practicality thrown in too. If you want your open-top motoring to be as pleasurable a driving experience as possible, then you should opt for one of the proven winners in that field. IMO.

Aye, but how far behind could a Solstice be really? I'd bet it's right there with the MX-5 in terms of handling.

 

[Joey D]

You can reach any car's limits on the public road legally, easily.

No you can't. The limits of most super cars and even most sports cars for that matter are way above was is acceptable on the road.

All I said was that in in bad weather the limits are smaller for every car. In the case of the S2000 it is tricky at the limit. In the case of the MX-5 it isn't tricky at the limit. Combined with bad weather bringing the limits closer, the S2000 is likely to be trickier than the MX-5 and sooner. Or, if you'd like it to be in a positive light, you need more ability to safely drive the S2000 in bad weather.

For the average driver, the MX-5 is likely to be the better car. For the average driver in a country where it rains 2 days in 3, the MX-5 is likely to be the safer car.

That still carries no weight when discussing the cars. You shouldn't be driving any car in the wet in the same manner you'd driver it in the dry.

And you have no idea what the issues those crashed S2000's might have had, could be worn or improper tires, could be worn suspension, could be a lot of things.

I think you might be exaggerating this whole thing a bit though, I see people drive their S2000's in Michigan...during the winter...with snow covered roads. They don't seem to have any issues barring they are on snow tires. I also seem them driving all the time when it's raining, they manage to get around just fine without spinning out or wrecking. Same thing goes for every RWD I see.

 

[Famine]

No you can't.

Yes you can.

The limits of most super cars and even most sports cars for that matter are way above was is acceptable on the road.

Going fast in a straight line is one limit. You can exceed even a supercar's limits on a public road, legally.

Take your ABS fuse out. Drive to 55mph. Stamp on the brakes. Oh look - you just exceeded the braking limit of your car. This is also just one limit.

That still carries no weight when discussing the cars. You shouldn't be driving any car in the wet in the same manner you'd driver it in the dry.

Thanks for the advice. I never knew.

And you have no idea what the issues those crashed S2000's might have had, could be worn or improper tires, could be worn suspension, could be a lot of things.

Yes. I'm sure that S2000s - along with the other marques I mentioned - being notoriously tricky at the limit and, by extension, in the wet when limits are narrowed, has nothing to do with it.

I think you might be exaggerating this whole thing a bit though, I see people drive their S2000's in Michigan...during the winter...with snow covered roads. They don't seem to have any issues barring they are on snow tires. I also seem them driving all the time when it's raining, they manage to get around just fine without spinning out or wrecking. Same thing goes for every RWD I see.

And I've driven all of my cars in 6 inches of snow and failed to crash (oh, and without snow tyres fitted). Must mean that all the cars I've ever driven are just fine in snow. Mustn't it?


You're making an awful big deal out of trying to prove that "S2000s are tricky in the wet" is wrong. Why? It's well-known that they are, along with TVRs, Mk4 Supras, Mk2 MR2s, S14 Silvia/200SXs. What's the problem with that?

 

[Joey D]

Yes you can.

Whatever, apparently you know more than I. Even if I went out an drove my car, a little automatic econobox, at the limit I would exceed traffic laws.

Going fast in a straight line is one limit. You can exceed even a supercar's limits on a public road, legally.

Take your ABS fuse out. Drive to 55mph. Stamp on the brakes. Oh look - you just exceeded the braking limit of your car. This is also just one limit.

So you have to modify the car to bring it to the limit? That makes a whole heap load of sense. I'm not playing the modification game.

Yes. I'm sure that S2000s - along with the other marques I mentioned - being notoriously tricky at the limit and, by extension, in the wet when limits are narrowed, has nothing to do with it.

You don't know that for a fact so why bring it up? I said they could have had issues, I don't know either. I'm merely suggesting that to be one of the causes. I have never disputed that they maybe tricky at the limit, but once again only a hoon would drive their car at the limit on a public road.

And I've driven all of my cars in 6 inches of snow and failed to crash. Must mean that all the cars I've ever driven are just fine in snow. Mustn't it?

I'm talking solely about the S2000, you make it out to be that in anything other than perfect dry and sunny condition an S2000 will end up in a hedge. I'm telling you that people in Michigan drive them in the snow without issue, which tends to be a bit slicker than a wet road.

 

[homeforsummer]

Aye, but how far behind could a Solstice be really? I'd bet it's right there with the MX-5 in terms of handling.

Not according to the entire motoring press. I'm sure you can make them handle (though indeed you can make anything handle with the right know-how), but if the reviews are anything to go by then they're not a patch on MX-5s fresh out of the box.

 

[Famine]

Whatever, apparently you know more than I. Even if I went out an drove my car, a little automatic econobox, at the limit I would exceed traffic laws.

You don't have much imagination insofar as "limits" go then.

It is perfectly possible to exceed any car's limits on the public road legally. If you believe otherwise, you are in error.

So you have to modify the car to bring it to the limit? That makes a whole heap load of sense. I'm not playing the modification game.

No. As I said, that's just ONE limit and I was taking your car as a reference point. It has ABS which would need to be disabled to explore the limits of braking. I've not driven an MX-5 with ABS yet (and since I don't plan to drive a Mk3, I doubt I will) so there is no ABS to be disabled.

You don't know that for a fact so why bring it up? I said they could have had issues, I don't know either. I'm merely suggesting that to be one of the causes.

The first sentence is at odds with everything else there.

I have never disputed that they maybe tricky at the limit, but once again only a hoon would drive their car at the limit on a public road.

:facepalm:

You accept that some cars are trickier at the limit than others (S2000 being one)?
You accept that bad weather alters those limits for the worse?

So where's the problem? I've already given you an example of how it's easily possible to exceed the new limits at very low speed, but you're still not accepting it for some reason.

I'm talking solely about the S2000, you make it out to be that in anything other than perfect dry and sunny condition an S2000 will end up in a hedge.

Fabrication.

I'm telling you that people in Michigan drive them in the snow without issue, which tends to be a bit slicker than a wet road.

Irrelevant. I watched 20 people drive F1 cars around a wet road circuit earlier and less than 15% of them had any problems. Must be easy.


S2000s are trickier at the limit than MX-5s. Bad weather makes those limits much smaller and easier to exceed - you need more ability to drive an S2000 safely within limits when wet than you do an MX-5. It's remarkable you'd even think about arguing the toss about this.

 

[TheCracker]

Aye, but how far behind could a Solstice be really? I'd bet it's right there with the MX-5 in terms of handling.

I'm only going on what i've read, the Solstice isn't sold in the UK and neither is it's sister, the Opel GT/Saturn Sky, but from what i can make out, it feels a bit 'dead' in the steering. I don't doubt for one minute that it has more grip than the MX-5, but grip isn't handling.

 

[Scaff]

S2000s are trickier at the limit than MX-5s. Bad weather makes those limits much smaller and easier to exceed - you need more ability to drive an S2000 safely within limits when wet than you do an MX-5. It's remarkable you'd even think about arguing the toss about this.

Having driven both generations of S2000 and the first two gens of MX-5 at MIRA on both the dry and wet handling circuits (and the wet skid-pan) I can 100% agree with this.

In particular the first generation of S2000 is a total sod on the limits with very little in the way of progression and a nasty lift-off oversteer habit. These well know issues were addressed with the second generation.......

While everybody is talking about the engine tweaks, it's really the chassis that has been changed the most. Honda has dramatically changed the handling balance of the S2000 to give it a more fail-safe personality on the street. We circled the skidpad with the '04 S2000 and registered 0.89 g, down from the 0.92 g the previous car achieved. The car also understeered every yard of the way, no matter what we did to get the rear end to step out. You might be tempted to look for an explanation in the '04 car's new 17-inch Bridgestone RE 050 tires, but there's far more to it than that.

To start with, the front springs are 6.7 percent stiffer, and the shocks are tuned to suit. The rear springs are 10.0 percent softer, and the rear anti-roll bar is softer as well. Once you add rear tires that are 30mm wider than the fronts (instead of just 20mm as before), it's clear that the rear of the car is going to hang on until after the front tires give up.

We can hear howls of protest from the self-styled handling experts, especially once they learn that the '04 car's steering is also fractionally slower than before. It's no wonder the S2000 now understeers on the skidpad, they'll say. But when you take a look at our slalom test, a measurement of the S2000's ability to change direction without a loss of control, the car's speed improves by 1.2 mph to 71.0 mph, which is what you'd predict from the hardware changes. So far we think this new balance is for the better.

Source - http://www.modified.com/roadtests/0403scc_2004_honda_s2000/index.html

....in fact the first gen's issues are so well known it is a wonder why it needs to be discussed.

The MX-5 by contrast is a much more progressive car on the limit and because those limits are lower, things are happening at much lower speeds and as a result are far easier to deal with.

If it were my money I'd be going for an MX-5.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Jim Prower]

Why is everyone acting like he's gonna drive this thing like a complete tool in situations where he shouldn't? I mean, is this like a debate for the sake thereof type thing? or is it stemming from the hairdresser comments? Because if he IS gonna drive like a complete tool, he can buy a Corolla.

I don't see how such extreme outer-limits behavior is going to apply anywhere but a racetrack, unless you're driving by far and away far too fast on a road. Otherwise, let him test-drive both.

I haven't seen him post since, so I assume you've driven him away with your constant bickering. Way to help someone.

((If you're still watching, Boz Mon, Did you see that NA1 in Oswego? the one maintained by the Honda Tech?))

 

[Scaff]

Why is everyone acting like he's gonna drive this thing like a complete tool in situations where he shouldn't? I mean, is this like a debate for the sake thereof type thing? or is it stemming from the hairdresser comments? Because if he IS gonna drive like a complete tool, he can buy a Corolla.

I don't see how such extreme outer-limits behavior is going to apply anywhere but a racetrack, unless you're driving by far and away far too fast on a road. Otherwise, let him test-drive both.

I haven't seen him post since, so I assume you've driven him away with your constant bickering. Way to help someone.

((If you're still watching, Boz Mon, Did you see that NA1 in Oswego? the one maintained by the Honda Tech?))

As I get included in the 'everyone' part of that I think I will reply with a couple of points.

One I never implied that anyone was going to drive like a complete tool.

Two you don't need to be on the outer limits of performance for a 1st gen S2000 to bite you. A couple of MPH to fast into a corner or roundabout in the wet and you need to back off is enough to get some lift-off oversteer going very quickly.

That's neither the limits of the envelope, nor driving like a complete tool, rather a situation a lot of people can find themselves in.

Other than that, thanks for the un-needed dig, they are always fun to get.


Scaff

 

[daan]

No you can't. The limits of most super cars and even most sports cars for that matter are way above was is acceptable on the road.

💡

 

[Famine]

It's also worth a note that MX-5 owners tend to move "up" to S2000s after their MX-5 ownerships - at least those that don't move "up" to the next generation of MX-5 or power-modify their '5 (there's so many off-the-shelf FI kits for '5s, and engine bay space for all sorts of crap, up to and including an LS1). A few move back again afterwards, but it seems to be a natural progression.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Interior quality? I don't care for interior quality, I care about ergonomics only.

I'm sorry but most GM products get a massive fail there as well.

Solstice being no exception.

 

[YSSMAN]

Aye, but how far behind could a Solstice be really? I'd bet it's right there with the MX-5 in terms of handling.

Between the two cars, things are generally close between them under most circumstances, but the Solstice ends up falling short most times because of its higher weight and the shoddy output of the ECOTEC 2.4L engine. Simply put, the dynamics of the MX-5 are superior in every way, and the MZR 2.0L was otherwise the cherry on top of the sundae. Sure, the handling matches up, but the Solstice just wasn't as much fun to drive, which is why it lost out to the MX5 in almost every comparison test.

The addition of the 2.0L Turbo on the GXP helped things quite a bit, both it and the Sky Red Line hold quite a bit of credibility as top-notch, affordable sports cars, but lets not kid ourselves... Its still not a 370Z or an S2000.



RE: Driveability, Useability, Liveability

Meh. I think you guys are making a bigger deal out of it than it needs to be. Drive them both, figure out which interior is more comfortable, more useable, and what you could see yourself not hating as much in the not-so-distant future. The snow and ice in Illinois is bad, not as bad as what we have here in West Michigan mind you, but certainly something that must be taken into consideration. As Joey has pointed out, there are plenty of crazies in Michigan that drive their MX-5's and S2000's year-round without much trouble... But that doesn't make it a good idea. I'd be more concerned with how much stuff I can fit in the trunk, or how many cubby holes there are to stash my Pre, iPod and Netbook when I'm traveling. Furthermore, I'd start worrying about where my feet sit when I'm cruising around, or where my arms will sit when traveling from place-to-place. Based solely on short seat times in the AP2 and the NC MX-5, the Mazda takes those criteria without much of a problem.

No, the NC isn't as macho as the S2000, but I think its the more-rational choice at the very least. The same can be said for the NB, which I love to pieces as well. I like the S2000, don't get me wrong, but even as I myself consider looking at one to replace the Celica, I know and understand its shortcomings... And those may not be things I'm willing to put up with.

 

[Boz Mon]

Ok guys...I have been watching this thread, I am going to completely dismiss anyone saying that either car can't be driven in the snow. I drove a Lexus SC300 in 6 inches of snow a lot with no problems. The only issue was not being able to start from a red light easily. Right now, I am leaning toward the Miata actually. I am going to try and find a dealer with a S2K somewhere on monday so I can actually drive one.

I will drive both cars hard when the time is right, but in everyday situations, I drive a little more aggressively than the normal person, but not like a "tool" in any sense. I drive smart, and pay attention to whats going on around me.

I also have a friend who may want to buy my Prelude when the time comes, I just really dont know what its worth, but thats another can of worms all together.

Again, thanks for the replies, and keep the discussion going.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Whatever, apparently you know more than I. Even if I went out an drove my car, a little automatic econobox, at the limit I would exceed traffic laws.

Understeer. Think about it

Ok guys...I have been watching this thread, I am going to completely dismiss anyone saying that either car can't be driven in the snow.

You would be correct. I have a friend who has an S2000 and it's his only car. He had winter tires, but he said that it was a bit tricky.

 

[niky]

On the limits at legal speeds? At all times. Having oversteered a front-wheel drive Corolla... in first gear recently... (no mechanical grip, high roll center, heavy engine... braking into a turn... a purely academic exercise, of course, testing for lane-change safety)... I can say it's definitely possible. Interestingly, this is similar to the issues with the early Honda Fit sedans. A longer and taller rear end than the hatchback, a rear anti-roll bar that's a bit too firm, and the car had the potential to "bite" if you got it out of shape. Fixed a few years ago with a softer anti-rollbar and better suspension geometry.

A lot of accidents happen due to poor and changing conditions... an SC300 might not notice much... even if it's rear wheel drive, because it has a long wheelbase, a soft-ish suspension and a suspension geometry tuned to understeer at the limit.

Neither the Miata nor S2000 has that passive safety net of understeer that 99% of cars on the road have. Even an absolute idiot with no motorsports experience or inclination can oversteer a Miata if he tries (I've seen it). The S2000, on the other hand, is twitchier... and relies heavily on its mechanical grip to prevent that "moment"... mechanical grip which goes away with enough water, snow, dust or whatever... on the road.

Early MR2s were similarly infamous for breaking away at inopportune times... it's not something you'll notice while pootling around town, but if you go for a flog in the mountains or on the track and aren't an uber-1337 driver... you'll want to go for the easier to master car first... then, as Famine suggests... upgrade to an S2000 down the line when you want something more.

Think of it as buying a sportsbike. Cut your teeth on something smaller first (400cc-600cc) before going up to the big boys...

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Whatever, apparently you know more than I. Even if I went out an drove my car, a little automatic econobox, at the limit I would exceed traffic laws.

No you wouldn't.

Rain. Throttle. Turning. Understeer.

Past a limit.

Take an on-ramp quickly, start to understeer a little...




Must I continue?

 

[Casio]

No you wouldn't.

Rain. Throttle. Turning. Understeer.

Past a limit.

Take an on-ramp quickly, start to understeer a little...




Must I continue?

I reckon if a cop saw you understeering on an onramp you could get booked. It's probably not legal by a technical definition. Since we're all being stupidly technical about things.

 

[Paulie]

I'm sorry but most GM products get a massive fail there as well.

Solstice being no exception.

Well pardon me for living in Australia where Holden sports cars have superb ergonomics.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I reckon if a cop saw you understeering on an onramp you could get booked. It's probably not legal by a technical definition. Since we're all being stupidly technical about things.

True, he could theoretically book you for reckless driving or something to that effect.

Well pardon me for living in Australia where Holden sports cars have superb ergonomics.

Define sports car.

 

[Paulie]

Define sports car.

Big power or fun to drive or both. All Commodores and Monaros have had great cabin ergonomics, although I heard a small bit of that was lost in the LHD GTO conversion.......

 

[Joey D]

No you wouldn't.

Rain. Throttle. Turning. Understeer.

Past a limit.

Take an on-ramp quickly, start to understeer a little...




Must I continue?

I wouldn't be observing traffic laws though and I very well could get a ticket for "unsafe driving for conditions", whether I stuffed it or not.

 

[Tornado]

Yours might, ours don't. Porsche consistantly top reliability and customer satisfaction surveys in the UK

Really? I thought they had transmission or engine problems or something. Hm.



On the subject of "at the limit," I know first hand. A rough transcript of what happened in November is that my friend who was driving needed to do an emergency lane change in his floppy-suspensioned, front-heavy, FWD barge. Then the rear-end came around as he was straightening out, meaning he had exceeded the traction limits of the car. Then the front end bit down, meaning the suspension limits had been exceeded. Then, whee!

I'd still get the S2000, but I just like it more.

Also, for reference, the first Miata to get a 6-speed was the Anniversary edition; after which they made it standard (in America, at least).

 

[YSSMAN]

Also, for reference, the first Miata to get a 6-speed was the Anniversary edition; after which they made it standard (in America, at least).

I believe the five-speed remained standard across the board, and the six-speed was only available with certain options and trims. Its still the case today as well.

 

[Tornado]

My knowledge of 2001-era car magazines has let me down again.

 

[YSSMAN]

Its a simple mistake, and I'll admit that I confuse it often as well. I think the only reason I knew was because I've been reading a lot of material on the car, again.


I need to get a drive in a 2009 NC, pronto.

 

[Famine]

No you don't.

It's an ass-backwards 2 litre Ford Focus. NA/NB is where it's at.