New FFB WIP!! Forza 7 PC wheel impressions/settings guide UPDATED

Discussion in 'Forza Motorsport 7' started by Blue028, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. Blue028

    Blue028

    Messages:
    391
    Location:
    Australia
    New FFB WIP (from data out)






    Edit 2







    EDIT 1

    Second take with settings that have been recomended by a developer to achieve FFB based purely on mechanical and pnumatic trail. The results are a huge improvement over my first impresions


    Sorry I have neglected the thread, I was more focused on the discussion happening on the forza bards, here is what I have learned so far;

    • Previous Forzas had poor ffb as the result of not including mechanical trail in their equation, and only conveyed pnumatic trail
    • Mechanical trail is in the equation in fm7
    • Ffb understeer setting scales the mechanical trail feedback
    • Min force setting scales the pnumatic trail feedback
    • Mechanical trail and pnumatic trail are combined before they are turned into steering torque
    • Spring is a seperate centering force that does come from physics based equations but this force is overcome by trail feedback at racing speeds

    Aaron (the t10 dev) knows what he is doing, he is putting in long hours at the office investigating issues and giving us valuable information. I trust that things are going to improve for the better.









    MEDIA=snipped

    As a fan of the series I am absolutely gutted by the experience the demo has delivered, especially after the fact that we were told they made huge improvements.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
    Ak1504, Dopplegagger, afm and 4 others like this.
  2. Nikkolaz

    Nikkolaz

    Messages:
    134
    Location:
    Chile
    Thanks for sharing. I have the same exact issue with a DF GT in the demo (and also in FH3).
     
  3. ThunderLips

    ThunderLips

    Messages:
    189
    Just tried it myself with a T300.

    I've never been a huge fan of the driving in FM. They've made small improvements over time. FM6 I could tolerate it for what the game had to offer me.

    This feels like garbage. It goes from super heavy to break away. Zero progression. Awful.
     
    breyzipp likes this.
  4. Vadara

    Vadara

    Messages:
    14
    Y'all are crazy. Wheel feels so much better than FM6--not perfect, no, but WAY better. I actually want to use the wheel in this game and have been having a ton of fun. It could be better, a lot better, but it is by no means "garbage". The actual physics feel like a slightly grippier Assetto Corsa.

    Are you using "Simulation" steering? Because that actually IS unrealistic garbage and you should never use it, you should always be using Normal steering.
     
    bf3 likes this.
  5. F Inferno

    F Inferno

    Messages:
    353
    Damn so all the talk they gave about a wheel guy fixing it was ********.

    I can't try the demo for a couple of weeks since I'm not at home but shouldn't be surprised. The underlying physics data needed for good wheel FFB is obviously just not there and they will just keep focusing on controller support since Dan also isn't a wheel guy.

    I'll wait for a 50% sale on the standard edition and play it on the controller next year sometime. Will be interesting to see if they are sending it to its death.
     
    Ak1504 likes this.
  6. Blue028

    Blue028

    Messages:
    391
    Location:
    Australia
    If you have to resort to using a steering mode that assists your inputs and dampens the physics then the FFB is broken and it IS garbage.
     
    Dopplegagger likes this.
  7. Vadara

    Vadara

    Messages:
    14
    Do you have any proof it actually does that? It feels more like Normal steering is the regular steering and Simulation drops the grip and makes the car super sensitive because REALISMZ. That isn't realistic.

    Look, man, bitch and moan all you want. I was having fun and that's all that matters to me.
     
    gt_fan, ShadowBlue, bf3 and 1 other person like this.
  8. ThunderLips

    ThunderLips

    Messages:
    189
    Sorry everyone for speaking too soon,

    I did have on Simulation. Just turned it off and your right it's not garbage. I'd say the only difference between this and FM 6 is the FFB is tighter throughout. I still have a big problem with their phyisics. That has not changed. If it has it's not glaring and I'd need to spend more to to notice. At the end of the day I could play this.

    Now this comment on the other hand is pure insanity.
     
    Ak1504 likes this.
  9. Vadara

    Vadara

    Messages:
    14
    's how they felt to me. I'm not the first person to believe that either.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2017
  10. F Inferno

    F Inferno

    Messages:
    353
    Given that this thread is specific to PC this has nothing to do with your console wars. We have much better sims than this available but that's irrelevant it's frankly embarrassing that a supposed sim can't get wheel support right, even Codemasters as buggy as some of there games have been could get basic FFB sorted.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2017
    Ak1504 likes this.
  11. MagpieRacer

    MagpieRacer Premium

    Messages:
    12,392
    Location:
    England
    This feel absolutely 100% better than forza 6 on the wheel. The force feedback is actually there and has a lot of options now to adjust.

    Xbox one, Logitech g920
     
    RikkiGT-R, bf3 and Kedmasterz like this.
  12. Vadara

    Vadara

    Messages:
    14
    I'm playing on PC too, bro, I got both rfactors, Assetto Corsa, Automobilista, and Raceroom on my comp right now. Is the FFB in FM7 good? Eh, not really. Is it actively terrible like in FM6? No. It's better. That's just not really up for debate. You can say it's not enough, but it's enough for me at least.
     
  13. queleuleu

    queleuleu

    Messages:
    2,989
    @Blue028
    Probably your answer.

    https://www.gamereactor.eu/news/589223/GT+Sports+Yamauchi+is+clearly+a+wheel+guy/
    "Well it really depends on 'is the developer a wheel guy or not?', especially when it comes to console games," he said. "For example, Kazunori Yamauchi, he's clearly a wheel guy, so look at this game and it's definitely made for steering wheels, while there are other games out there, I don't want to mention them, which are... where the people think more about 'what's the biggest install base and these are controller users, so we first adapt 100% for those users'. So that's what we have on console.
     
  14. Mad1723

    Mad1723 Premium

    Messages:
    297
    Well, just tried this game on the V2.5... and it's hot garbage. Absolutely horrible feeling, no sense of connection to anything, ever. Can't feel anything, no feedback on standstill and no progression on the feedback, can't tell what the wheels are doing. This is disappointing to no end, after all the promises with Fanatec having a chat with them, I thought they'd give it a go.... nope, worst feeling racing game on my PC right now.
     
    Ak1504 likes this.
  15. PzR Slim

    PzR Slim Premium

    Messages:
    6,707
    Location:
    England
    I'm in two minds about this. Can't decide if it's absolutely rubbish or quite good. Bizzare!

    Setting steering to Normal definitely feels better than Simulation. I need to do lots more testing before I can be sure.
     
  16. F Inferno

    F Inferno

    Messages:
    353
    Well odd that you brought up GTS then. As I said I haven't personally tried it yet so until then I can't say for sure but that video is exactly what made Apex/FH3 the worst FFB I've had the misfortune to drive in any 'sim'.
     
  17. Blue028

    Blue028

    Messages:
    391
    Location:
    Australia
    The physics are the same, normal steering reduces the player input to reduce understeer, and reduces input correction to avoid talk slapping (which dampens the weight transfers significantly) if the ffb cannot give me the information needed to drive the car and I have to resort to this steering mode then there is something very wrong with the FFB calculations
     
    Dopplegagger likes this.
  18. Symtex

    Symtex

    Messages:
    741
  19. Ialyrn

    Ialyrn

    Messages:
    869
    Dopplegagger and Blue028 like this.
  20. Jimmy_Pop

    Jimmy_Pop

    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    United States
    My g27 was just fine.
     
  21. F Inferno

    F Inferno

    Messages:
    353
    I'm not convinced, they very rarely fix anything outside of nerfing some OP cars because of the broken PI system, I feel it's just a front to try and sucker us into buying it and then they will go radio silent again.
     
  22. RMX

    RMX

    Messages:
    64
    I am actually impressed / surprised with how well my CSWv2 feels in this demo. The last 2 demos I played were utter trash (FM6, FH3) for the wheel and stopped me from purchasing FH3. I fired up FM6 before trying the demo.

    My intial reaction I would agree the FBB feels tighter, detail wise (road feel) doesn't feel much different to FM6 though. I am getting the correct sensations for understeer/oversteer and where my biggest issue with FM6 was drifting / countersteering the wheel would just go dead and not return to center seems improved to me (not perfect but totally driveable).

    It is worth noting I have only tried the GT2RS and I am playing on Xbone, have not tried pc version.

    CSW running 900 and simulation steering.
     
  23. skazz

    skazz

    Messages:
    2,431
    This comment is pretty sensible: https://forums.forzamotorsport.net/...fixed--UP--Nope--Still-Broke.aspx#post_768363

    Seems like there is FFB hidden away behind the broken centering spring, so for now turning off centering spring is a way to uncover it.


    I’ve always looked at this very differently. To me, all of Forza physics are tuned for a pad, and then T10 slap on some translation to support wheels as a secondary element.

    Specifically, sim physics is tuned so that pad users (with inherent pad assists) get a more raw experience. It has never translated well to wheel use, and I say this is because it was never intended to be a direct window into the physics engine like you would get on a PC sim. Instead we get effects on the wheel which overcompensate for pad assists.

    Sure, some people who think driving a virtual car must be very difficult might like the experience, but if you do a like for like comparison with say Assetto Corsa using the same car on the same laser scanned track then my historical experience with Forza is that normal steering is much closer to AC than sim steering when used with a wheel.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
    Dopplegagger likes this.
  24. Ialyrn

    Ialyrn

    Messages:
    869
    You do realize that t10 devs barely ever interact via the forza forums? They normally stay deathly silent, never uttering a word or asking for technical information about peoples individual wheel setups (or anything else for that matter). It is fine to not be fully convinced, but in this particular instance; it is worth us wheel users taking an actual chance on this T10 dev. Give him the benefit of the doubt, give him the information he has asked for in a constructive way; and lets see if this dev makes changes to the way FFB is handled. It is the most promising thing we have ever had in regards to using wheels with forza, so lets not screw it up with distrust and anger over past iterations and this demo. Lets get the dialog we have been begging for fully open, and lets help T10 get this sorted; as it finally feels like someone is listening.
     
    Dopplegagger likes this.
  25. PzR Slim

    PzR Slim Premium

    Messages:
    6,707
    Location:
    England
    I had a quick blast again this morning before work and apart from when you go way beyond the grip limit of the front tyres I'm reasonable happy with what I'm feeling. I can certainly able to feel both understeer and oversteer and the wheel gives me enough information to be able to react accordingly. I've seen people mention that the cars don't seem to have weight and they can't feel any weight shift. I don't agree with that. I can also feel the grip building as you apply more lock and just over the grip limit of the front tyres it feels quite nice. Way beyond that front tyre grip limit and it's a different story. I've turned centering spring and dampening down to zero as well as having understeer at 10. Need to play about with that more as haven't really worked out quite how it affects things yet.

    I'm also not getting the 'Porsche is impossible to drive' feeling. I feel like I can throw it around quite nicely. It does understeer like a pig if you don't scrub enough speed off but brake soon enough and I feel you can balance the car quite nicely.

    Still early days but so far I'm happy, if they do listen and can improve things then all the better.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
    Ialyrn likes this.
  26. Ialyrn

    Ialyrn

    Messages:
    869
    I have to be honest, I quite like the Porsche, current wheel issues aside. From testing last night I did find that on the PC it was better to not of the Thrustmaster driver open in the background, as it seems to totally override the game, not work with it. Because of that my first impressions where awful, but after running the game without the Thrustmaster driver open; I had a similar experience to you. The T10 dev has stated that the FFB understeer slider (and I think a couple others) are not working properly in the demo, so they are barely making a difference. But they do know about it, and has stated they are working on things.
     
    PzR Slim likes this.
  27. F Inferno

    F Inferno

    Messages:
    353
    I'd rather they just do what Codemasters did with Dirt Rally and have someone who knows what they are doing fix it for them. If they haven't been able to fix it themselves without us telling them what is wrong (and people already did in 6 and Horizon) then I don't see how us telling them what's wrong will make a difference because that still needs to be translated to working code which none of us have any clue how to do.

    Given that it's a 'wheel guy' who has supposedly been working on it then the only two conclusions I have for it being bad is either he knows how it should feel but no idea how to program it or the underlying physics are so geared to controllers that it's impossible to get decent FFB as it doesn't output the information needed.

    Anyway I need to actually play it myself before I can make a proper judgement as it's all just conjecture based on what others have said/shown.
     
    Ak1504 likes this.
  28. Ialyrn

    Ialyrn

    Messages:
    869
    That is a really poor way to look at the current interaction unfortunately. And who to say this current dev talking with us on the forza forums isnt the new guy that was brought in after Christian (the previous FFB dev that publiclly talked to the community) left T10's employ? Its been a known fact for a while now that T10 hired a new dev to work on wheels and FFB. By not providing any information and just been negative over the current discussion we have going, it isnt going to help anyone. This dev has to contend with a mixture of information from console users where everything is pretty much in some form of control by microsoft, as it is a closed system. To then also have to deal with wheel users like myself who have non xbox supported wheels playing on windows 10, wheel users who can mix and match their setups with various different wheels, rims, pedals, shifters, handbrakes (and so on); and then find out how to best replicate what he needs to in order to have any chance of sorting the issues and getting us the better wheel force feedback we have been begging them for. So swallow your pride and give the guy the benefit of the doubt, from what I can see; he clearly wants to help.
     
    Fat Tyre and PzR Slim like this.
  29. F Inferno

    F Inferno

    Messages:
    353
    If a random guy not employed by Codemasters can go in and fix the FFB in Dirt Rally without any community input in 1 month and yet this guy can't get it working in 6 I feel it's a little optimistic to expect them to be able to properly fix it.

    The wheel setup has no baring on the quality off the in-game FFB so asking specifics about people's setups is a little odd. What I take from that is he thinks the setup he has been using is perfectly fine and it's something wrong on our end, otherwise they would have been upfront that it's not ready in the demo, then again it is T10 so maybe not.

    I bet he does genuinely want to help and prove himself though again sometimes you just have to put your hands up and ask for help if you can't do something. I'm just trying to be realistic here and not get my hopes up, I'd love to be able to play it on a wheel as well as other sims but I suspect I'll be waiting for a sale and using a controller which isn't the end of the world as it at least has the best controller feedback of any racer.
     
  30. Ialyrn

    Ialyrn

    Messages:
    869
    You are not been realistic at all, you are been rather closed minded to what is currently going on. Wheel setups matter immensely, not everyone has the same devices. When it comes to wheel setups on PC, then you are very naive. When you think about all the different setups people can have on PC, the different parts people mix and match; the differing driver settings. Everyone has a different personal opinion on what the FFB should feel like as well, so we all use different settings. Giving the dev that is talking to us the relevant information will help more than I think you realise it will, it means that dev can input those settings on his end, it means he can use the wheel setups we have. If they do not have a particular wheel, well its a company owned by microsoft; so I would hope they would buy in the kit they needed to do the relevant testing with. On top of that you also have to contend with varying motherboards when it comes to PC, all with their own USB setups. So you have USB 2.0, USB 3.1 and USB 3.1, and unlike the xbox one; they are not set drivers across the board for it. There are so many variables when it comes to this stuff, that there is always something new to find out, to investigate, and to fix.

    So as I asked you already, drop the chip you clearly have on your shoulders for the time being, provide some constructive information for the dev who is asking for it, give him the benefit of the doubt; be part of the solution and not part of the problem. Being abrasive over this isnt going to help anyone. If nothing changes, then fair enough; distrust T10 all you want. But for once we seem to have someone at T10 who does want to get to the bottom of this.