Not a SIM

[David Wright]

Pcars 1 and 2 have 600Hz physics rate which IMHO barely above minimum of 500Hz ( which is also the minimum IRL for reasonably accurate damper telemetry with acceptable tolerances of error ) 1000 or 2000Hz should be the standard for simulation games.

But it isn't. AC and ACC run at 333Hz, iRacing runs at 360 Hz, rF2 runs at 400 Hz. PC1 &2 are actually well ahead of rivals.

 

[slthree]

May I make a suggestion?

@oneloops at a certain point, saying the same thing over and over and over again is not really productive. Clearly, you have an agenda that none of us understands but your point has been made and it's time to move on

To every single other person on this thread:

Is there any way that you can refrain from responding to him? He does not want to reason with anyone and he does not want to listen to reason. His ridiculous assertions and our responses have cluttered up, unnecessarily, this thread.

@oneloops you are RIGHT about every single word you've ever said on GT planet.

There, I took one for the team. Now he has no reason to pursue his agenda and we no longer have a reason to reply.

 

[killerjimbag]

I think it's like a slider level, with enabling unrealistic aids ( also depends on how it is implemented ,- limiting/smoothing player input side or internal physics calculation side, ie reducing effects of the forces affecting the car like inertia, g force, heat, wear ) and disabling certain part of calculated simulation physics like damage so you can abuse the engine/drivetrain like maniac, you are effectively reducing the fidelity or accuracy level of the simulation. This applies to all simulation based games, another example Pcars3, the tire is simplified, damage disabled, drivetrain simplified so you can downshift from high to low gear in an instant over revving the engine-locking up the tires with no consequences, unrealistic braking distance, persistent driving assists, just to name a few from what I read here. There's also a chance that the physics rate calculation may also be reduced to reflect the simplified physics, saving CPU cycle. Pcars 1 and 2 have 600Hz physics rate which IMHO barely above minimum of 500Hz ( which is also the minimum IRL for reasonably accurate damper telemetry with acceptable tolerances of error ) 1000 or 2000Hz should be the standard for simulation games.

Oh God here we go again. Do you own any of the above games you talk about on any platform? PC,PS4,XBOX.

 

[ImaRobot]

For you those changes keeps the simulation underneath, for me they add arcade overhead.

Real cars don't have damage off, gt3 cars don't have stability control, neither exterior cams.

Hitting everybody without consequences have all the influence on the driving simulation, you can be faster and overtake like no real driver.

And if you increase aerodynamic load you can drive more like an arcade if you want.
ABS and TC to the maximum too, you can go ON/OFF with the throttle and brakes, like in an arcade game.

That's only your opinion. For ACC and for PC3.

A few settings that change a lot
Stability control in ACC is very powerful as an aid for begginers and for casual gamers.

iRacing has brake assistance and throttle assitance as driving aids.

I'm not saying that they are not sims because of that, but you can drive them in an arcade way with aids and no damage.

The only thing that might be able to argue is changing the simulation physics of the game is the Damage on/off, and still that is in no way changing what is underlying. You're grasping very hard at that and there's really not a connection, you're just trying to force it. Absolutely nothing else of which you mention changes what's actually being simulated - it's changing how you interact with the simulation. That's not an opinion either, changing those things doesn't change what's simulated for everyone else, nor does it change what's simulated for you either. That goes for any game.

Unless what you change affects the simulation for everyone, than it's not changing the physics of the game, at all. It's just changing the way you interact with it. If that was the case, than what you're arguing is that turning off/on things like STC and TCS in real life would also be changing real life to arcade or making it more real.

 

[SlowGrayAudi]

Based on all the videos I've seen it just seems like all the cars just want to oversteer all the time? Is this accurate?

And with all the talk of the underlaying assist that you can't turn off, its honestly putting me off buying it.

I really thought it would be a fun game, but i dont like using assists, especially hidden ones. (Im by no means an elitist, but i want to drive the car myself)

Why do they not allow us to turn everything off?

Is it the same for wheel and pad?

 

[Animera]

I play with a T300 base, Ferrari F1 rim and T-LCM pedals with all assists off.
I can feel understeer and oversteer.
The physics are definitely dumbed down, but the driving feels believable.

You can definitely chuck the cars around a lot more and catch slides easier, but given the nature of the game, this makes it more fun.

 

[Scaff]

Based on all the videos I've seen it just seems like all the cars just want to oversteer all the time? Is this accurate?

And with all the talk of the underlaying assist that you can't turn off, its honestly putting me off buying it.

I really thought it would be a fun game, but i dont like using assists, especially hidden ones. (Im by no means an elitist, but i want to drive the car myself)

Why do they not allow us to turn everything off?

Is it the same for wheel and pad?

Understeer is massively minimised and oversteer the order of the day, with heavy assistance in catching it. Wheel and pad.

 

[terrible1fi]

Understeer is massively minimised and oversteer the order of the day, with heavy assistance in catching it. Wheel and pad.

Agreed, although I do feel like there is slightly less of an assist at play with wheel vs pad

 

[TT92]

Based on all the videos I've seen it just seems like all the cars just want to oversteer all the time? Is this accurate?

And with all the talk of the underlaying assist that you can't turn off, its honestly putting me off buying it.

I really thought it would be a fun game, but i dont like using assists, especially hidden ones. (Im by no means an elitist, but i want to drive the car myself)

Why do they not allow us to turn everything off?

Is it the same for wheel and pad?

Perhaps I can help here. I bought this game to pass the time while I was waiting for ACC to get fixed/patched.

First up it is solely an arcade game optimised for hand controllers. I run the same wheel as you (a T300) so I can relate to what you want to know. Running the game with all assists off is like driving ACC with all assists on. To prove this drive an "A Class" street car (Porsche 911 GTS etc) in PCARS 3 at Monza on street tyres and it will do the same lap times as a GT3 Lambo on race hards in ACC.

Basically if you want to do solo driving turn all assists off, do no upgrades to the car and it is near enough to have an enjoyable drive and can be a lot of fun. I do actually like it for the fun factor.

**IF** you want to race online then you need Stability Control on because this is *GOD MODE* as it makes cars up to 4secs a lap quicker and can make you drift like a pro especially in the wet where it is just plainly insane BUT what a lot of fun :-)) Oh and you need it because the AI is the absolute worst of any game ever made. They just drive into you as if you are not there and just keep doing it until you are rammed into a wall.

At the start it can be a bit "grindy" because you do have to buy cars BUT you can do events where you are given the car too. Also the online time trials are not bad either.

So I do not regret buying it as it is the most fun of all the PCARS games. I hated 1&2 :-( My recommendation is: Wait for it to go on sale or buy a second hand copy

I hope this helps.

 

[T0MMY3688]

I'm happy for you. Hopefully you will give your opinion once you try it. I'm really curious if you'll find it an 8/10 game too.

I'll post any opinions I have on Hotshot over here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/hotshot-racing-launches-10th-september.395671/

Don't need to fill up this thread with a different arcade racer.

 

[SlowGrayAudi]

Perhaps I can help here. I bought this game to pass the time while I was waiting for ACC to get fixed/patched.

First up it is solely an arcade game optimised for hand controllers. I run the same wheel as you (a T300) so I can relate to what you want to know. Running the game with all assists off is like driving ACC with all assists on. To prove this drive an "A Class" street car (Porsche 911 GTS etc) in PCARS 3 at Monza on street tyres and it will do the same lap times as a GT3 Lambo on race hards in ACC.

Basically if you want to do solo driving turn all assists off, do no upgrades to the car and it is near enough to have an enjoyable drive and can be a lot of fun. I do actually like it for the fun factor.

**IF** you want to race online then you need Stability Control on because this is *GOD MODE* as it makes cars up to 4secs a lap quicker and can make you drift like a pro especially in the wet where it is just plainly insane BUT what a lot of fun :-)) Oh and you need it because the AI is the absolute worst of any game ever made. They just drive into you as if you are not there and just keep doing it until you are rammed into a wall.

At the start it can be a bit "grindy" because you do have to buy cars BUT you can do events where you are given the car too. Also the online time trials are not bad either.

So I do not regret buying it as it is the most fun of all the PCARS games. I hated 1&2 :-( My recommendation is: Wait for it to go on sale or buy a second hand copy

I hope this helps.

Thanks so much for the insight. I really appreciate it.

I was gonna wait for black friday and get it for half price then. Looks like i probably will, it'll be good to have a game thats more just for fun and wont take me gritting my teeth to death trying to nail the perfect lap.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

But it isn't. AC and ACC run at 333Hz, iRacing runs at 360 Hz, rF2 runs at 400 Hz. PC1 &2 are actually well ahead of rivals.

Rfactor Pro runs at 800Hz, F1 2018 1000Hz, Automobilista 720Hz, Rigs of Rods 2000Hz, BeamNG 2000Hz, LFS 2000Hz. Iracing runs at 360Hz but the forces are calculated twice per time/update step at 720Hz, tire forces calculation 4x2x360 = 2880 Hz ( from official site ) - IMO basically still at 360Hz.

Different use for automotive industry : CarSim ( commercial mechanical sim used in car industry ) has physics solver runs at 2000Hz for AB2 integration. Another example, running Matlab-Simulink ( a graphical editor and solvers for modeling+simulating dynamic systems ) can be integrated with CarSim to simulate ABS systems with discrete tire model for example, and would run at 4000Hz ( half time step of CarSim with AM2 integration )

Higher frequency/lower time step/lower interval allows more accurate calculated simulation, less integration errors, less interval = smoother run, less chances of anomaly when vehicle simulated running at higher speed or subjected to higher forces ( like higher spring/damper rate, collision )

 

[oneloops]

The only thing that might be able to argue is changing the simulation physics of the game is the Damage on/off, and still that is in no way changing what is underlying. You're grasping very hard at that and there's really not a connection, you're just trying to force it. Absolutely nothing else of which you mention changes what's actually being simulated - it's changing how you interact with the simulation. That's not an opinion either, changing those things doesn't change what's simulated for everyone else, nor does it change what's simulated for you either. That goes for any game.

Unless what you change affects the simulation for everyone, than it's not changing the physics of the game, at all. It's just changing the way you interact with it. If that was the case, than what you're arguing is that turning off/on things like STC and TCS in real life would also be changing real life to arcade or making it more real.

That's what I always said, driving it like an arcade game or driving it like a sim.
Stability control in GT3 cars change a lot the simulation and the handling and it's not real in those cars, so it's not simulation when it's active.

Tesla autopilot is real too, but if you "drive" a GT3 with autopilot then you are not driving a simulation when it's active... it's the simulator that "drives you"... The same at another levels is about input smoothing or stability control in gt3 cars.

 

[Scaff]

Agreed, although I do feel like there is slightly less of an assist at play with wheel vs pad

Absolutely, but its still 100% more that should be in place for 'all the sim you want' as claimed by the marketing of PC3.

 

[TT92]

Thanks so much for the insight. I really appreciate it.

I was gonna wait for black friday and get it for half price then. Looks like i probably will, it'll be good to have a game thats more just for fun and wont take me gritting my teeth to death trying to nail the perfect lap.

The whole point is it is just fun. You can now do perfect laps in full on drift mode, one handed, while drinking a beer :-)) What is even funnier is the game scores you on how well you drove the last corner too. It's hilarious :-))

ACC is a true sim, this is not. When you are serious drive ACC, when you just want to play around or show off to friends or even drive drunk, play PCARS3 and have a laugh.

Oh and don't forget to carry a can of insect spray - this game is full of bugs ;-)

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Perhaps I can help here. I bought this game to pass the time while I was waiting for ACC to get fixed/patched.

First up it is solely an arcade game optimised for hand controllers. I run the same wheel as you (a T300) so I can relate to what you want to know. Running the game with all assists off is like driving ACC with all assists on. To prove this drive an "A Class" street car (Porsche 911 GTS etc) in PCARS 3 at Monza on street tyres and it will do the same lap times as a GT3 Lambo on race hards in ACC.

Basically if you want to do solo driving turn all assists off, do no upgrades to the car and it is near enough to have an enjoyable drive and can be a lot of fun. I do actually like it for the fun factor.

**IF** you want to race online then you need Stability Control on because this is *GOD MODE* as it makes cars up to 4secs a lap quicker and can make you drift like a pro especially in the wet where it is just plainly insane BUT what a lot of fun :-)) Oh and you need it because the AI is the absolute worst of any game ever made. They just drive into you as if you are not there and just keep doing it until you are rammed into a wall.

At the start it can be a bit "grindy" because you do have to buy cars BUT you can do events where you are given the car too. Also the online time trials are not bad either.

So I do not regret buying it as it is the most fun of all the PCARS games. I hated 1&2 :-( My recommendation is: Wait for it to go on sale or buy a second hand copy

I hope this helps.

So the stability control aka God mode is similar to SRF in GT ? Bad AI, grinding for money, sounds more like GT.

 

[Scaff]

So the stability control aka God mode is similar to SRF in GT ? Bad AI, grinding for money, sounds more like GT.

Almost, but the God modes are Steering and Brake assist, that almost (but not quite) allow you to drive with one button, they do however allow you to complete laps with the throttle pinned and minimal steering input used.

 

[strela]

**IF** you want to race online then you need Stability Control on because this is *GOD MODE* as it makes cars up to 4secs a lap quicker

That is strange. Maybe because on a pad, but Stability Control doesn't make the car quicker for me. On the contrary I drive slower because the car now feels heavier for some reason. It doesn't slow my driving by much. But it certainly don't make it faster.

 

[oneloops]

Gave the ‘66 Mustang a go back to back in PC2 and PC3 today, the difference between them is quite marked.

In PC2 you get quite clearly communicated initial understeer on a held throttle as you apply lock past the front tyres slip limit, then with the application of more throttle transitions into oversteer.

PC3 misses the understeer stage completely, stepping into oversteer directly.

In both cases the oversteer is easy to control, but that’s no surprise given the car and a nice big lazy V8, but that nuance of initial understeer (that basic physics dictates) is gone.

I've just tested the '66 Mustang in PC2 and PC3.

I disagree with your opinion, PC3 doesn't miss the understeer stage on a held throttle, for me it's very easy to find, and then transition to oversteer with the application of more throttle, very easy to control in both PC2 and PC3.

I've tested that car in Barcelone Club (the smallest one in Barcelone) in order to compare the same turn many times quickly.
For this test, I recommend to drive at least 5 or 10 laps to get used a little with the physics of a new car.

Also I've compared PCARS2, PCARS3 and ACC at Barcelone GP with the audi R8 GT3. In PCARS2 there is massive oversteering in the turn entry (even driving very smoothly), the nuance of initial understeer, "that basic physics dictates", is gone.

In PCARS3 and in ACC the initial understeer is there if you test this combo for example.

 

[fernandito]

Also I've compared PCARS2, PCARS3 and ACC at Barcelone GP with the audi R8 GT3. In PCARS2 there is massive oversteering in the turn entry (even driving very smoothly), the nuance of initial understeer, "that basic physics dictates", is gone.

Hard tyres on GT3 on pc2 ain't very realistic unless the tarmac is 50ºc or so. Use softs, and see what happens next if you don't manage them properly and/or steer too much, specially on hot conditions. This is where pc2 feels better as a simulation for the race cars it features.

 

[Scaff]

I've just tested the '66 Mustang in PC2 and PC3.

I disagree with your opinion, PC3 doesn't miss the understeer stage on a held throttle, for me it's very easy to find, and then transition to oversteer with the application of more throttle, very easy to control in both PC2 and PC3.

I've tested that car in Barcelone Club (the smallest one in Barcelone) in order to compare the same turn many times quickly.
For this test, I recommend to drive at least 5 or 10 laps to get used a little with the physics of a new car.

Also I've compared PCARS2, PCARS3 and ACC at Barcelone GP with the audi R8 GT3. In PCARS2 there is massive oversteering in the turn entry (even driving very smoothly), the nuance of initial understeer, "that basic physics dictates", is gone.

In PCARS3 and in ACC the initial understeer is there if you test this combo for example.

I'm going to treat this reply as carrying the same degree of honesty you display in these two posts...

Aug 31st

This week there is a new one with mustang gt4 at laguna seca, very challenging are it handles along every corner exactly the same as in ACC, iracing and GTS. With all aids off and abs off or on (anyway I prefer abs off). So it feels 100% sim at handling and physics.

Sept 9th

GT4 not yet for me, I have ACC on console.

...I don't value the opinion of liars!

 

[oneloops]

I'm going to treat this reply as carrying the same degree of honesty you display in these two posts...

Aug 31st


Sept 9th



...I don't value the opinion of liars!

I've tested GT4 in ACC with a friend, open a little the detective mentality.

 

[Scaff]

I've tested GT4 in ACC with a friend, open a little the detective mentality.

To be blunt.

I don't believe you and don't wish to engage with a fantasist any longer. You track record of utter nonsense and ******** has wasted enough of my time and in my view your overall contribution to the site is negative.

 

[oneloops]

To be blunt.

I don't believe you and don't wish to engage with a fantasist any longer. You track record of utter nonsense and ******** has wasted enough of my time and in my view your overall contribution to the site is negative.

As I said you before we can disagree, It's not necessary to call liar, utter nonsense, fantasist and *** or trying to show your opinion as the only truth if you disagree with somenone.

 

[ImaRobot]

That's what I always said, driving it like an arcade game or driving it like a sim.
Stability control in GT3 cars change a lot the simulation and the handling and it's not real in those cars, so it's not simulation when it's active.

Tesla autopilot is real too, but if you "drive" a GT3 with autopilot then you are not driving a simulation when it's active... it's the simulator that "drives you"... The same at another levels is about input smoothing or stability control in gt3 cars.

It is a simulation still. I’m sure those cars don’t have manual transmission either, but that’s also not changing the simulation. It being active doesn’t change what’s simulated. I just don’t think you really understand what you’re talking about, or you’re just trying to save face and twist it to fit your narrative.

if you use autopilot it still doesn’t change the simulation. It’s all still there, everything is being simulated, it’s just not you who’s interacting with it. Input dampening also isn’t changed the simulation. With or without those things doesn’t change anything. The more you harp on about makes it pretty clear that you’re either lying or just not sure what you’re trying to prove.

As I said you before we can disagree, It's not necessary to call liar, utter nonsense, fantasist and *** or trying to show your opinion as the only truth if you disagree with somenone.

he’s not trying to show that he’s the only truth, but you’re making it abundantly clear that you don’t want to accept the truth and you’ve absolutely failed on proving otherwise. This isn’t a matter of opinion what is or isn’t being simulated and he has proved pretty well, with evidence, that he can back up his claim. You on the other hand have done absolutely nothing.

your argument about aids changing simulation is outright ridiculous. Do aids change the physics of the real world, yes or no?

 

[oneloops]

It is a simulation still. I’m sure those cars don’t have manual transmission either, but that’s also not changing the simulation. It being active doesn’t change what’s simulated. I just don’t think you really understand what you’re talking about, or you’re just trying to save face and twist it to fit your narrative.

if you use autopilot it still doesn’t change the simulation. It’s all still there, everything is being simulated, it’s just not you who’s interacting with it. Input dampening also isn’t changed the simulation. With or without those things doesn’t change anything. The more you harp on about makes it pretty clear that you’re either lying or just not sure what you’re trying to prove.



he’s not trying to show that he’s the only truth, but you’re making it abundantly clear that you don’t want to accept the truth and you’ve absolutely failed on proving otherwise. This isn’t a matter of opinion what is or isn’t being simulated and he has proved pretty well, with evidence, that he can back up his claim. You on the other hand have done absolutely nothing.

your argument about aids changing simulation is outright ridiculous. Do aids change the physics of the real world, yes or no?

A GT3 race with unreal stability control, exterior cam, without damage and flourescent colour lines on the tarmac ... I don't think that it's a very good simulation played as that.
If you add fake aids you are going away of the aimed simulation.

If you can feel that like a simulation good for you... Someone can watch a youtube video and feel that he is driving ...

Do aids change the physics of the real world, yes or no? No, but you are assisted, like also with input smoothing.

About "the only truth" I just tested his combo and another one with different results than he claimed, and he gets angry about that.

 

[MagpieRacer]

A Do aids change the physics of the real world, yes or no? No, but you are assisted, like also with input smoothing.

There's no but in real life. The answer is no, it doesn’t. End.

Either that or I have an arcade car with traction control, ESP, ABS and power steering.

I really need to buy a sim car....

Edit: Tried the wife's car, turns out that electronic steering assistance. Even more arcade. WHAT IS LIFE

 

[oneloops]

There's no but in real life. The answer is no, it doesn’t. End.

Either that or I have an arcade car with traction control, ESP, ABS and power steering.

I really need to buy a sim car....

You are assisted so you can drive with ON/OFF inputs and big mistakes without consequences, like in an arcade game.

"Edit: Tried the wife's car, turns out that electronic steering assistance. Even more arcade. WHAT IS LIFE"
You prefer driving with less assistances, like me

In a GT3 car you can't get assisted with that stability control, neither with exterior cam, without damage and flourescent colour lines on the tarmac.

 

[AlexWilmot]

So I play ACC in cockpit view with no assists but I guess its an arcade now because I use a controller and not a wheel... sigh... if only I could have a sim...

 

[ImaRobot]

A GT3 race with unreal stability control, exterior cam, without damage and flourescent colour lines on the tarmac ... I don't think that it's a very good simulation played as that.

Don't forget adjustable FOV, and driving view too - like driving from the bumper view or from behind the car. That must mean its an arcade game too. Again, it's becoming abundantly clear that you're pressing very hard to twist that truth.

If you can feel that like a simulation good for you... Someone can watch a youtube video and feel that he is driving ...

No he can't, that's physically impossible. You feel literally nothing. Again, trying to deflect.

Do aids change the physics of the real world, yes or no? No, but you are assisted, like also with input smoothing.

Oh so glad you agree that aids don't change physics. What I don't get is how you can say that and then disagree that in the same sentence.

About "the only truth" I just tested his combo and another one with different results than he claimed, and he gets angry about that.

He didn't get angry about that. It's you twisting the truth that's irritating. Not only that but you've done absolutely nothing to try to even prove it. Either you can't because it's not true or you just don't know how to prove it.

You are assisted so you can drive with ON/OFF inputs and big mistakes without consequences, like in an arcade game.

WHAT?! Real life is an arcade? Wow..

In a GT3 car you can't get assisted with that stability control, neither with exterior cam, without damage and flourescent colour lines on the tarmac.

Doesn't change simulation or physics though. Just stop, you're not convincing anyone with your ill-conceived "opinion." It's sad at this point.