Not a SIM

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Ok... I see you're avoiding to answer with a simple yes, no or anything relevant to the question...

Maybe it's your rigid thinking...

I'll no longer be apart of this ridiculous conversation

Yes or no, can be more rigid than an explained answer. The relevant answer is that is claimed about pcars3, so it's important some proper driving in other to avoid more intrusive input smoothing.

You can't answer with only yes or no in many questions about handling.
 
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I'm confused...

So PC3 is a sim while you're on the racing line, but an arcade game once you go off it?

Magic line's to go with magic tyres.



PCARS3 has some unrealistic aids, like input smoothing, that makes the handling more arcade and easy when you drive in a bad way.
 
PCARS3 has some unrealistic aids, like input smoothing, that makes the handling more arcade and easy when you drive in a bad way.

Those input assists are ALWAYS there. There is no way or hiding them or stopping them activating. They don't just kick in when they feel like it. Whether you're driving well, driving bad or whatever, they will always be doing something in the background to assist.

For those who aren't aware:
Input smoothing
Controller damping*
Opposite lock assist
Mild traction assist
Aggressive speed sensitivity*

Are all the input assists being talked about, they can't be adjusted or turned off. They are all there to make the game easier to play. They certainly aren't dependant on how you're driving, they will always be doing something.

*I know strictly speaking these aren't assists as such but the damping can't be adjusted and does limit some feel. The speed sensitivty also can't be adjusted and is very aggressive in medium to high speed corners.
 
You know folks, I have fired up pc2 yesterday again, picked the Enzo and the 720 to have some laps around of course the Nords and the local layouts of Donington; Oulton, etc..., god bless all those extra layouts of depth the tyre model offered. Had so much fun going fast whilst controlling the cars and doing some drifting for as long temps allowed me..., and it felt realistic, and way better than in AC, so long I was driving road cars on the road tyre model.

Why did you have to remove all these layers of goodness in pc3 is beyond me, let alone now that machines like ps5 and new xbox allowed for a god-like evolution of this tyre model. Is it really being a hardcore simmer to control and enjoy a tyre system like that of pc2 or AC (regardless this last is not that good)?, of course it is not for hardcore simmers only, but for those who like to having fun with videogames that challenge you a little bit with extra depth, which doesn't make you an elitist or any other stupid qualifying adjective spewed by the usual opportunistic nuggets crawling around.
 
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You know folks, I have fired up pc2 yesterday again, picked the Enzo and the 720 to have some laps around of course the Nords and the local layouts of Donington; Oulton, etc..., god bless all those extra layouts of depth the tyre model offered. Had so much fun going fast whilst controlling the cars and doing some drifting for as long temps allowed me..., and it felt realistic, and way better than in AC, so long I was driving road cars on the road tyre model.

Why did you have to remove all these layers of goodness in pc3 is beyond me, let alone now that machines like ps5 and new xbox allowed for a god-like evolution of this tyre model. Is it really being a hardcore simmer to control and enjoy a tyre system like that of pc2 or AC (regardless this last is not that good)?, of course it is not for hardcore simmers only, but for those who like to having fun with videogames that challenge you a little bit with extra depth, which doesn't make you an elitist or any other stupid qualifying adjective used by the usual opportunistic nuggets crawling around.

This is exactly where I feel this game is just incorrectly branded. If it wqs called Toca Race Driver 4 or Grid Pro, Shift 3. Or whatever. Any of those names and the perception of this game shifts from, what have they done :mad: to What have they done :drool:.

And actuslly Toca Race Driver, I was thinking to myself the other day, this game gives me real Toca Race Driver 3 vibes.
 
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You know folks, I have fired up pc2 yesterday again, picked the Enzo and the 720 to have some laps around of course the Nords and the local layouts of Donington; Oulton, etc..., god bless all those extra layouts of depth the tyre model offered. Had so much fun going fast whilst controlling the cars and doing some drifting for as long temps allowed me..., and it felt realistic, and way better than in AC, so long I was driving road cars on the road tyre model.

Why did you have to remove all these layers of goodness in pc3 is beyond me, let alone now that machines like ps5 and new xbox allowed for a god-like evolution of this tyre model. Is it really being a hardcore simmer to control and enjoy a tyre system like that of pc2 or AC (regardless this last is not that good)?, of course it is not for hardcore simmers only, but for those who like to having fun with videogames that challenge you a little bit with extra depth, which doesn't make you an elitist or any other stupid qualifying adjective used by the usual opportunistic nuggets crawling around.

I would actually love to see the same controller settings applied on PC2.
Actually a bit less aided and dumbed down, it will be the greatest thing.

I am waiting for someone to work out the same settings and post them!
 
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I would actually love to see the same controller settings applied on PC2.
Actually a bit less aided and dumbed down, it will be the greatest thing.

I am waiting for someone to work out the same settings and post them!

I dont think it would feel close even if the same settings could be figured out. Some of the background physics elements aren't there so it will always feel different.
 
I dont think it would feel close even if the same settings could be figured out. Some of the background physics elements aren't there so it will always feel different.

This would not be a problem.
I mean, having the different feel because of all these extra layers, but with the confidence of having the situation under control, and the smoothness in the gameplay, will everything I would love to.

PC2 with the pad is feeling almost disconnected most of the times, with a persistent feeling of driving over eggs.
 
This would not be a problem.
I mean, having the different feel because of all these extra layers, but with the confidence of having the situation under control, and the smoothness in the gameplay, will everything I would love to.

PC2 with the pad is feeling almost disconnected most of the times, with a persistent feeling of driving over eggs.

Yeah but that's what I'm meaning, the way the assist levels have been woven into the physics would make it impossible to get that level of connection with PC2. PC2s opposite lock assist consist of on or off, on PC3 its much stronger than when its turned on in PC2. Which means straight away its not going to be able to recreate that confidence and feel in the corners than PC3 does on a pad.

I also think the speed sensitivity scales itself, whereas PC2 its locked in to the value you set it, I'm pretty sure that PC3 scales it while driving as I've gone in to corners before and barely been able to get anywhere near enough steering lock on to make the turn and the car has just gone off the road, then the following lap it nails the apex as though thr speed sensitivity has been reduced to allow more lock at speed. Its a good test to try on Sakitto through 'not the 130r' and and 'mobil 1 kurve' on Hockenheim. You can really feel the speed sensitivity through those corners and its quite hard to be consistent as it feels like it changes.

So just those 2 things alone would make it very difficult to recreate the confidence feel in PC2. It would be cool to try but somewhere a compromise would need to be made and things like the smoothing, damping and opposite lock assists are more powerful than they can be in PC2.
 
These are my controller settings in PC2. You might like to try them.

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_20200904_113857.JPG


I don't use opposite lock.
 
This would not be a problem.
I mean, having the different feel because of all these extra layers, but with the confidence of having the situation under control, and the smoothness in the gameplay, will everything I would love to.

PC2 with the pad is feeling almost disconnected most of the times, with a persistent feeling of driving over eggs.
Like magpie have told you, it is impossible to make pc2 controller handling just as simple and efficient as it is in pc3, basically because pc1 and 2 were built from the ground up to be managed with a wheel. You cannot filter all that stuff in pc1 and 2 properly in order to achieve good controller handling. You need to re-program the entire handling system to fit well controller, like they have done for pc3. Building everything from the ground up, not just tweaking here and there and applying the filters we know that work in the background in this game.


And actuslly Toca Race Driver, I was thinking to myself the other day, this game gives me real Toca Race Driver 3 vibes.
Well to be fair to old school toca3 racing, I think that game requiered more skill at driving than pc3 does. In toca3 you could still lose your car when being that happy on the throttle as well as when not combining properly with counter-steering. In pc3 you can just.., you know. Let's fly bro It's need for speed time. Let's take that very tight 90º hairpin at 120Km, and of course with handbrake too hohooooo.. like we all do in real life uh?
 
Like magpie have told you, it is impossible to make pc2 controller handling just as simple and efficient as it is in pc3, basically because pc1 and 2 were built from the ground up to be managed with a wheel. You cannot filter all that stuff in pc1 and 2 properly in order to achieve good controller handling. You need to re-program the entire handling system to fit well controller, like they have done for pc3. Building everything from the ground up, not just tweaking here and there and applying the filters we know that work in the background in this game.


Well to be fair to old school toca3 racing, I think that game requiered more skill at driving than pc3 does. In toca3 you could still lose your car when being that happy on the throttle as well as when not combining properly with counter-steering. In pc3 you can just.., you know. Let's fly bro It's need for speed time, let's take that very tight 90º hairpin at 120Km..., and of course with handbrake hoho, like in real life uh?..

Especially with the sim modes turned on in TRD3. That was such a great game.
 
Gave the ‘66 Mustang a go back to back in PC2 and PC3 today, the difference between them is quite marked.

In PC2 you get quite clearly communicated initial understeer on a held throttle as you apply lock past the front tyres slip limit, then with the application of more throttle transitions into oversteer.

PC3 misses the understeer stage completely, stepping into oversteer directly.

In both cases the oversteer is easy to control, but that’s no surprise given the car and a nice big lazy V8, but that nuance of initial understeer (that basic physics dictates) is gone.
 
It's pretty much the opinion of every single sim racing channel out there. I really don't get why SMS would make a game that would alienate 80+% of the consumers who bought the first two PCars and make it a spiritual successor to a short lived series from almost a decade ago that was absolute garbage. Add in the factor that GRID last year absolutely bombed and showed them that very few people care for these half arcade, half simulation racing games, so who is this game for??
The game is for me. The fun factor supercedes the other problems with the game. It needs some fixing for sure but if they can get the bugs worked out it is going to be a really good game.
 
Gave the ‘66 Mustang a go back to back in PC2 and PC3 today, the difference between them is quite marked.

In PC2 you get quite clearly communicated initial understeer on a held throttle as you apply lock past the front tyres slip limit, then with the application of more throttle transitions into oversteer.

PC3 misses the understeer stage completely, stepping into oversteer directly.

In both cases the oversteer is easy to control, but that’s no surprise given the car and a nice big lazy V8, but that nuance of initial understeer (that basic physics dictates) is gone.


That's pretty disappointing but at this point unsurprising, to be honest. Even games we typically think of having fairly simplistic dynamic models get this right and have for many years.
 
@Scaff how does the Ferrari 355 handle in pc3 out of interest?
It was absolutely sublime in pc2, had to be among my favourites out of any car in any sim I’ve tried to date.
 
@Scaff how does the Ferrari 355 handle in pc3 out of interest?
It was absolutely sublime in pc2, had to be among my favourites out of any car in any sim I’ve tried to date.
Haven't actually given it a go yet, will try it out in both later if I can. I agree that in PC2 it was great, used it a lot for single-make races.
 
Yesterday I've completed Passione Rossa event and the car feels great (stable and planted as in PC2) but there is a bit o f a lack of challenge when driving. It was alright but it was completely predictable, therefore in PC2 much more focus was needed when driving that thing. But this might not be a single car thing...
 
Very clear and concise analysis.
Definitely happy I didn’t go for this game, but can see why some find it fun.
Sounds like ego massaging physics which could suit some more than others.
As in real life, I’d prefer my vehicle of choice to scare the beejeezus out of me, not make me think I’m some sort of Ken Block tyre shredding hero.
The pc3 physics sounds like it suits the gamified direction out this title.

Not for me though, this ain’t project cars!
 
Very clear and concise analysis.
Definitely happy I didn’t go for this game, but can see why some find it fun.
Sounds like ego massaging physics which could suit some more than others.
As in real life, I’d prefer my vehicle of choice to scare the beejeezus out of me, not make me think I’m some sort of Ken Block tyre shredding hero.
The pc3 physics sounds like it suits the gamified direction out this title.

Not for me though, this ain’t project cars!

It definitely makes you feel like a hero. I've got used to the way this thing handles and accepted it for it is, the main thing at the moment thats really bugging me about it is the AI. Lacking any kind of real challenge for 95% of the game andbfor the other 5% they just get NOS on the straights and still have no talent at the corners.

And that is actually for me one of the biggest immersion killers for the game, you either win by 15 seconds or you finish a frustrating 4th as the AI turbo boost down the fast circuits like Hockenheim and Silverstone. Nothing legendary or aggressive about this AI :crazy:.

Actually, with the lack of damage, it reminds me of esrly Gran Turismo, where you could just bounce past the AI by Turn 1 and have zero challenge. The fun is in the drive not the race. Hopefully the AI is something thay can be patched, but not just by making them stupid fast on the straights.
 
It definitely makes you feel like a hero. I've got used to the way this thing handles and accepted it for it is, the main thing at the moment thats really bugging me about it is the AI. Lacking any kind of real challenge for 95% of the game andbfor the other 5% they just get NOS on the straights and still have no talent at the corners.

And that is actually for me one of the biggest immersion killers for the game, you either win by 15 seconds or you finish a frustrating 4th as the AI turbo boost down the fast circuits like Hockenheim and Silverstone. Nothing legendary or aggressive about this AI :crazy:.

Actually, with the lack of damage, it reminds me of esrly Gran Turismo, where you could just bounce past the AI by Turn 1 and have zero challenge. The fun is in the drive not the race. Hopefully the AI is something thay can be patched, but not just by making them stupid fast on the straights.
Sounds like they dropped the ball with ai which is strange given that it could be set up fairly well in pc2, albeit not consistent across tracks and classes.
This is the frustrating thing, all the ingredients were there, even to make a decent arcade spin off, but something very important got left behind during the transplant operation.
 
Very clear and concise analysis.
Definitely happy I didn’t go for this game, but can see why some find it fun.
Sounds like ego massaging physics which could suit some more than others.
As in real life, I’d prefer my vehicle of choice to scare the beejeezus out of me, not make me think I’m some sort of Ken Block tyre shredding hero.
The pc3 physics sounds like it suits the gamified direction out this title.

Not for me though, this ain’t project cars!
I wasn't going to buy the game anyway after playing it in one's friends like I said many pages prior, but still didn't know about what he talks regarding the transition from understeer to oversteer once you turn your wheel, with this physics ignoring the initial understeer completely and going directly for the oversteer that should come later of course, for both road and competition cars. I mean I felt this thing of course, but wasn't sure as to how explain that.., feeling?, now I get it thanks to his explanation, and yeah he's right. There's no understeer lol.., I mean come on sms. Also, and now I udnerstand better this factor I didn't like to about pc3, forget about terminal oversteer even on road cars if you don't floor the throttle when udnersteering. Terminal understeer when turning the wheel too much was even in pc2 when tyres were very hot. Here that is absent as well from the physics engine.

I mean man, the understeer was the even on Driveclub before the infamous '15 October-Novemeber patch that killed the arcade handling. The point of Driveclub was, precisely, to power-understeer like a champ throughout its layouts. Yeah, it was arcade handling, but with real-life beginnings when initiating drifts with you losing the front of the car first, not the other way around. And the game also requiered certain skill prior that update. In PC3 you go straight to oversteer and yeaaaaah lets goo brooo..., no.
 
I take a subjective look at a handful of cars back to back across PC2 and PC3, as well as some objective testing around the effects of high degrees of engine vs. road speed mismatch (otherwise known as changing down from 5th to 1st at 170mph) and the accuracy of stopping times in both.



In Shift 2, down shifting to very low gear at high speed is very dangerous which usually result in spin or blown engine. Maybe in PC3, due to the always optimal conditioned tires/magic tire contributes to the state of the physics. Can the tires overheat in pc3, and when it does, is it like IRL ? or it's just always in optimal condition no matter what you do. I'm curious as well, can tires get blow out due to heat ? This was simulated in Shift 2 along with blown engine. It will be interesting to compare Shift 2 with PC3.
 
In Shift 2, down shifting to very low gear at high speed is very dangerous which usually result in spin or blown engine. Maybe in PC3, due to the always optimal conditioned tires/magic tire contributes to the state of the physics. Can the tires overheat in pc3, and when it does, is it like IRL ? or it's just always in optimal condition no matter what you do. I'm curious as well, can tires get blow out due to heat ? This was simulated in Shift 2 along with blown engine. It will be interesting to compare Shift 2 with PC3.
There's no such thing as mechanical damage. Although the water temperature gauge is working. But nothing else happens. Same for tires. There's no such thing as overheat. There is no tire heat, damage or any kind of degradation. Basically you can drift your car around Green Hell for 99 laps and nothing will ever happen.
 
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In Shift 2, down shifting to very low gear at high speed is very dangerous which usually result in spin or blown engine. Maybe in PC3, due to the always optimal conditioned tires/magic tire contributes to the state of the physics. Can the tires overheat in pc3, and when it does, is it like IRL ? or it's just always in optimal condition no matter what you do. I'm curious as well, can tires get blow out due to heat ? This was simulated in Shift 2 along with blown engine. It will be interesting to compare Shift 2 with PC3.
The locked core tyre temps are in my view part of the issue, but not the only thing, I've not had a single case of a tyre overheating or being too cold at all in PC3.

Zero mechanical damage as well, so no blown engines, etc. One of the things I loved about PC and PC2 was that over-revving and missed shifts, etc could damage the engine, 100% not the case with PC3.
 
There's no such thing as mechanical damage. Although the water temperature gauge is working. But nothing else happens. Same for tires. There's no such thing as overheat. There is no tire heat, damage or any kind of degradation. Basically you can drift your car around Green Hell for 99 laps and nothing will ever happen.

The locked core tyre temps are in my view part of the issue, but not the only thing, I've not had a single case of a tyre overheating or being too cold at all in PC3.

Zero mechanical damage as well, so no blown engines, etc. One of the things I loved about PC and PC2 was that over-revving and missed shifts, etc could damage the engine, 100% not the case with PC3.

So in a way, Shift 2 was better in damage simulation, the car could break apart affecting suspension, steering, wheels come off, engine blown from over rev and tire blow out ( but you can still reset the car ). Strange PC3 omit these things that were in Shift 2.
 
So in a way, Shift 2 was better in damage simulation, the car could break apart affecting suspension, steering, wheels come off, engine blown from over rev and tire blow out ( but you can still reset the car ). Strange PC3 omit these things that were in Shift 2.
To be honest Shift has one of the best damage simulation of all racing games.
Also one, if not the best upgrading system. Racing modifications in PC3 are a joke. It's way better to just buy a race car since there's no way to convert the car back to street version losing all the street upgrades you have already bought.
 

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