Not a SIM

[Zeitoss]

May I say that I lost completely the point of the arguments of the last three to five pages?

It looks like the conversation spinned out of control with NFS vs. GTAV, cockpit views vs. hood views, soft tire vs. hard tires, real life driving with a controller vs. racing game with a wheel.

What all these discussions trying to prove?

 

[oneloops]

On that point, cockpit cams just improves the immersion of it but it doesnt change the realism or arcade aspect of the game features. Going on chase cam you still have the same street crosses, traffic light and traffic to manage. It is definitely going to be easier to see the surrounding in a chase cam but the traffic sim doesn't stops or change in a different camera view.

Not only improves the inmersion, if you use the rear exterior cam you have an aid with more vision and better vision around you that fakes the realism of the simulation of how is to drive a car or a race car.

Unreal easier = aid as other unreal aids (made for unrealistic help). It's an unrealistic advantage.

The same for fluorescent lines on tarmac, a race driver have to choose his references and his driving lines and adapt them along the race. There is no simulation in adding adding lines and adding unreal apex references. That can be an advantage for many for not loosing focus for example, even more with rain conditions.

 

[T0MMY3688]

Not only improves the inmersion, if you use the rear exterior cam you have an aid with more vision and better vision around you that fakes the realism of the simulation of how is to drive a car or a race car.

Unreal easier = aid as other unreal aids (made for unrealistic help). It's an unrealistic advantage.

The same for fluorescent lines on tarmac, a race driver have to choose his references and his driving lines and adapt them along the race. There is no simulation in adding adding lines and adding unreal apex references. That can be an advantage for many for not loosing focus for example, even more with rain conditions.

A slight advantage from racing lines and a chase cam to see more doesn't reduce the simulation of the game, it still simulates tyre heat and wear whether you have those 2 aids on or off in ACC case for example but turning off racing lines and forcing a cockpit view into NFS doesn't make it anymore realistic when the game is not even designed to be realistic.

How sim is a game goes further than just a few extra optional aids made to help new comers.

Also in Petter Solberg's case he even find driving in "arcade" view to be more realistic for DR2.0 because the lack of "feeling" of what back of the car is doing in cockpit view:

 

[Scaff]

A slight advantage from racing lines and a chase cam to see more doesn't reduce the simulation of the game, it still simulates tyre heat and wear whether you have those 2 aids on or off in ACC case for example but turning off racing lines and forcing a cockpit view into NFS doesn't make it anymore realistic when the game is not even designed to be realistic.

It also not as if either is beyond reality either.

Porsche Augmented Reality Driving Line
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/09/porsches-augmented-reality-hud-show-ideal-racing-line-ghost-cars/

Car Driven from the roof


Driving a car using a video feed from a drone in a chase cam is far from impossible and the idea of using drones to provide autonomous cars better visibility is being explored.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90162582/why-your-autonomous-car-might-come-with-its-own-drone

As such none of those concepts are actually impossible or unrealistic in the same way that changing the laws of physics is, as almost all pure arcade titles do.

 

[oneloops]

A slight advantage from racing lines and a chase cam to see more doesn't reduce the simulation of the game, it still simulates tyre heat and wear whether you have those 2 aids on or off in ACC case for example but turning off racing lines and forcing a cockpit view into NFS doesn't make it anymore realistic when the game is not even designed to be realistic.

How sim is a game goes further than just a few extra optional aids made to help new comers.

Also in Petter Solberg's case he even find driving in "arcade" view to be more realistic for DR2.0 because the lack of "feeling" of what back of the car is doing in cockpit view:

"How sim is a game goes further than just a few extra optional aids made to help new comers." I agree, there are many things involved, not only handling and not only visual aids.

Yes, I saw that appreciation from Solberg.
With VR you can feel better the back of the car You feel better how the car rotates and slides... a lot better than in 2D, I understand Solberg.

VR onboard is the plus inmersive and realistic cam.

It also not as if either is beyond reality either.

Porsche Augmented Reality Driving Line
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/09/porsches-augmented-reality-hud-show-ideal-racing-line-ghost-cars/

Car Driven from the roof


Driving a car using a video feed from a drone in a chase cam is far from impossible and the idea of using drones to provide autonomous cars better visibility is being explored.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90162582/why-your-autonomous-car-might-come-with-its-own-drone

As such none of those concepts are actually impossible or unrealistic in the same way that changing the laws of physics is, as almost all pure arcade titles do.

It's difficult to make a GT3 championship like that
How many races or track days have you seen driving like that ?
Have you ever driven like that ?
Have GT3 cars those AR lines ?
One crazy test is not extrapolable to racing and driving, as the controller from your other video They are very rare exceptions.

Unreal it's not the same than impossible.
Roof driving in a gt3 along a gt3 championship it's not impossible but it's unreal (the championship is made (for now) with the drivers inside the car )

Exterior rear view in games is unreal even compared with your video, you have to see the back of your car several meters behind in order to get the same view, so it's still unreal even from a rigid thinking argument if you try to demonstrate that "reality"

 

[Corsa]

I haven’t picked up PC3, the only other arcade game I play and enjoy is Forza 7.
Could someone with a wheel give me a benchmark, is the driving model better/worse than Forza?

rFactor 2 league keeps me quite busy but I do enjoy a good laid back driving game, so long as it feels and acts somewhat real.

 

[ImaRobot]

"How sim is a game goes further than just a few extra optional aids made to help new comers." I agree, there are many things involved, not only handling and not only visual aids.

You absolutely missed the point by a good country mile. It’s embarrassing at this point It’s interesting to see someone try to bend something so much to fit his own personal definition of something.

let’s watch as he tries to twist this against me, like he has everything else so far.

 

[oneloops]

You absolutely missed the point by a good country mile. It’s embarrassing at this point It’s interesting to see someone try to bend something so much to fit his own personal definition of something.

let’s watch as he tries to twist this against me, like he has everything else so far.

In my opinion you are wrong reducting simulation to handling simulation.

If you focus a little and if you don't miss the point they are called racing simulators and driving simulators, not handling simulators.

If you feel fine with only a handling simulator good for you.

You can play your sim as you want

And even there sims use to have unreal handling aids as options in order to be played as arcade games if you want, like stability control in GT3 cars in ACC and brake and throttle assists in iRacing and so on.

 

[Famine]

Driving a car using a video feed from a drone in a chase cam is far from impossible

I have in fact done it, though it wasn't a drone but a Nissan Qashqai. Jann Mardenborough did it too, with the same car but using an actual helicopter for coptercam.

We both drove with a PlayStation 4 DS4 controller:
https://www.gtplanet.net/drove-nissan-gt-r-playstation-controller-worked/

 

[Donnced]

Had to say...wow, entertaining thread! I have quite some fun reading some comments..so no need to buy for the moment the Shift 3 lite game and will stick with the project cars 2 game, same fun, less filtered,and less arcady with basically 90% of the game discussed here.

For a more arcady and less bug game with better graphics I've got GTS

 

[fernandito]

I used to be a chase cam user before the last gen trend of using so much fov, where you see the road so wierdly narrow, as well as your car so tinty and ugly (Dirt Rally-DR2; wrc, etc etc almost all racing games), with only Driveclub being the last example of the goodness of classic old school chase cam where you see everything big, including your car, which also aids taking corner and apex better obviously. I mean, how can some folks take corners optimally with these nowadays horrible chase cams?, it's borderline impossible.

After chase camera got so terrible with that expanded fov since last gen, I switched to bumper cam with very reduced fov, even for arcade games although Driveclub can still be played on chase and be very fast due to its reduced fov old school fashion.

I can't udnerstand how some can drive or like these nowdays chase cameras of the likes of dr-dr2. They are and look so terrible I don't have words for it, let alone for scoring good laptimes.

 

[oneloops]

I used to be a chase cam user before the last gen trend of using so much fov, where you see the road so wierdly narrow, as well as your car so tinty and ugly (Dirt Rally-DR2; wrc, etc etc almost all racing games), with only Driveclub being the last example of the goodness of classic old school chase cam where you see everything big, including your car, which also aids taking corner and apex better obviously. I mean, how can some folks take corners optimally with these nowadays horrible chase cams?, it's borderline impossible.

After chase camera got so terrible with that expanded fov since last gen, I switched to bumper cam with very reduced fov, even for arcade games although Driveclub can still be played on chase and be very fast due to its reduced fov old school fashion.

I can't udnerstand how some can drive or like these nowdays chase cameras of the likes of dr-dr2. They are and look so terrible I don't have words for it, let alone for scoring good laptimes.

Chase cam in ACps4 is very weird and dancing... They improved that in ACC in my opinion.

In PCARS3 the chase cam is also a bit dancing but good enough..

When using a chase cam I prefer a narrow cam and more fixed to the car too.

 

[MagpieRacer]

EPAS is the work of the devil... Pretty sure any sim racer would lambast most modern cars for their terrible FFB. I haven't driven all the cars but there's exactly one manufacturer with cars I've driven who seems to have got it right. Other than that, you want steering feel, get something old with an old school hydraulic or non power steering rack.

100% agree. My Twingo RS has a slightly heavier feel, feels more connected to the wheels and thays a good thing as its a bit kf a rocket on a country road. The Clio Tourer with its EPAS just feels numb and lacks any feedback or anything. Granted its a diesel estate so its not meant to be driven that way but when I do have to drive it I want it to be fun . My wife likes it thats the important thing.

 

[Wolfe]

On the subject of chase cams, I find the chase cam in PCARS3 to be outstanding; anyone agree? I tend to prefer a good cockpit view, but I also enjoy using a chase cam when it works, and this one really works.

 

[ImaRobot]

On the subject of chase cams, I find the chase cam in PCARS3 to be outstanding; anyone agree? I tend to prefer a good cockpit view, but I also enjoy using a chase cam when it works, and this one really works.

For the life of me, I just can't get used to any sort of chase-cam, I always feel like my reactions are delayed for some reason. For that reason, I end up reverting back to interior cam. I'm way faster with interior view, so because of that I have a hard time giving the other views a chance.

 

[Beezer215]

@Scaff how does the Ferrari 355 handle in pc3 out of interest?
It was absolutely sublime in pc2, had to be among my favourites out of any car in any sim I’ve tried to date.

It drives like just about every other car in PC3 because they all have basically the same feeling now. You're going to be drifting a street Mustang just like you're going to be drifting a GT3 car just like your going to be drifting a Formula car. Nothing feels like PC2 anymore.

I haven’t picked up PC3, the only other arcade game I play and enjoy is Forza 7.
Could someone with a wheel give me a benchmark, is the driving model better/worse than Forza? rFactor 2 league keeps me quite busy but I do enjoy a good laid back driving game, so long as it feels and acts somewhat real.

Feels better than what I remember forza feeling like for sure. I don't do forza though. The wheel feeling really isn't that bad on DD2. That aspect is surprising for what a mess this is. If you're on rF2 then you know and you've felt the cream of the crop. PC3, I guess, feels "somewhat" real. The driving and physics aren't. Yes you can have some fun in it but soon enough it will be the flavor of last week collecting dust.
They basically made a children's game for controllers out of PC2 and called it PC3.

 

[strela]

It drives like just about every other car in PC3 because they all have basically the same feeling now. You're going to be drifting a street Mustang just like you're going to be drifting a GT3 car just like your going to be drifting a Formula car. Nothing feels like PC2 anymore.

Did you drive the car? It doesn't drive like a street Mustang. Not even close. It's actually pretty hard to drift in the 355. It feels more like a slot car.
I'm well aware of the drifting in this game. Still comments like it drives like just about every other car are a lie. A street Mustang doesn't drive like a street Exige or Caterham. Or a Super Truck. And even in GT3 category the 911 GT3 feels different to the Vantage GT3.
But I do agree that it's not like PC2 anymore.

 

[Beezer215]

I may have been over exaggerating a tad and I did notice that the Prototypes are fairly grounded as well but all the cars are blanket effect for ease of use. Designed for steer lock left to right in an instant on controller sticks. While the feedback does feel alright on the wheel, the amount of turn on the wheel can be a bit much. Sometimes you have to use the steering degree trick while calibrating the wheel to get more degrees of rotation instead of just 1:1.

I'm not saying that PC3 is garbage. It's not the worst thing ever created. It does have it's issues though. Races turn into destruction derby until the AI spreads out a bit. They run right into you and if you touch bumpers with the car in front of you it's like they have velcro on them. You're going to stick for a few seconds. The career mode is bad though. 75% of it is in rain like it rains everywhere all the time and no race was ever held on a dry day. I could care less about "breaking blocks" with numbers on them. So then it turns into a buy the next event which I suppose is a good feature but defeats a "career". I don't feel like a driver building my status as a race car driver from nothing to stardom. And what's with the drum beats in the background of every track even when you turn the music off. Needs to be a slider for that too.

A couple positives though. The cars are more accessible and the cars that drove horribly in PC2 can now be used in PC3 albeit the dumbed down physics. Custom races can be good and are where the most fun can be had. I'm on PC so the graphics are fine (although some of the items are iffy like tire water spray And track lods drawing before your eyes). I was on PC3 all evening tonight to give it another chance, didn't feel the need to turn it off immediately. They had so much potential but it falls short it seems on everything it's trying to do, even if they were trying to create an arcade title.

 

[Animera]

I was thinking that if they had taken Pcars1 and added the Pcars 3 extra events into the calendar, it would have been a great game.

 

[strela]

A couple positives though. The cars are more accessible and the cars that drove horribly in PC2 can now be used in PC3 albeit the dumbed down physics.

For me right now this is the biggest issue. I was happy when I raced first time online because the accessibility of cars made up for quite some good racing. But now after two weeks it really starting to feel dull. And the worst part is that I totally forgot how to drive other racing games. I often switched between FM6 and PC2 and never had that problem. Now when I'm playing FH4 the cars feel so different. I even had to lower the difficulty because unable to compete against Unbeatable anymore. And I'm playing regularly FH4 for the past 2 years.

 

[Bloodytears]

I switching to PC2 pretty often and first 15 minutes or so push cars the same way, unfortunately they don't as fast as they do in PC3 with this driving style.