Not being able to remove engine/weight stages = DUMB!!!!

[atteiros]

Please tell me your just being pedantic? You just wouldn't ever return a tuned car to stock, you'd buy another stock car?

That is exactly what I do. There's the issue of availability if it came from the UCD though.
But overall, I agree with the OP. Allowing detuning makes things simpler.

 

[Basilea]

I would love if I could remove it in my stealths! I understand to point , that it can't be done irl, but hey it's a game! A game and not real life and the reason that it's a simulator... ok, on physics and driving feeling, but come on not on this kind of things!

 

[Devedander]

When did we start ignoring the fact that a game is entertainment and thus distills the enjoyable factors of life from the drugery often including allowing you to do things you wouldn't in real life?

Are we really so caught up in the "IRL" excuse with a game that offers ECU tunes for kublewagons and allows staging a race of F1 cars on a dirt mountain course if you so desire?

Again, there is no reason that we shouldnt' be able to swap back from an enjoyment factor and even less of one from a reality factor (as I pointed out earlier your shop of unlimted free work could sure sleeve your engine back to speck, reinstall stock parts or at worst pull or buy a stock engine and refit it).

 

[freedomweasel]

Please tell me your just being pedantic? You just wouldn't ever return a tuned car to stock, you'd buy another stock car?

In the game? I'm forced to buy a second car if I want to drive the car stock again. Given the difficulty of finding standard cars I'd prefer have one that I can swap parts on.

I fail to see how this is being pedantic. I have cars that I have only 1 copy of, and have yet to find another copy for sale. I can't tune them the way I'd like or I can't drive it stock until another one shows up. That's just silly.

When did we start ignoring the fact that a game is entertainment and thus distills the enjoyable factors of life from the drugery often including allowing you to do things you wouldn't in real life?

Thank you. Let me tune my freakin car how I want. There is enough fake "not real" stuff in the game as it is, how will reversing engine tuning really damage the game.

 

[super cirrus]

I've replaced quite a few parts on my real car, but I kept the factory ones. If and when I sell it, I will return it to stock and sell the the performance parts separately. People do it all the time.

 

[Devedander]

In the game? I'm forced to buy a second car if I want to drive the car stock again. Given the difficulty of finding standard cars I'd prefer have one that I can swap parts on.

I fail to see how this is being pedantic. I have cars that I have only 1 copy of, and have yet to find another copy for sale. I can't tune them the way I'd like or I can't drive it stock until another one shows up. That's just silly.

Not only are you forced to buy a second car, you are then forced to rebuy all the upgrades BESIDES the ones you strictly want to get rid of easily turning a second 50k Cr car into a 200k purchase.

 

[GTP_geoff]

Some cars are a work of art straight out the factory, some need a little help. I think PD have it bang on with the limits of how much you can take off a car once tuning has been applied.

Gran Turismo is fantasy, so is collecting cars. I'm sure anyone that does collect cars IRL has money to spare even if it's just adding an induction kit to a Golf, you'd never go back to the "factory settings".

 

[freedomweasel]

Not only are you forced to buy a second car, you are then forced to rebuy all the upgrades BESIDES the ones you strictly want to get rid of easily turning a second 50k Cr car into a 200k purchase.

Exactly. In "other racing games" you can buy all the parts for a single car, save a mess of set ups (all of which can use various combinations of parts) and switch between them at will. OR you could buy a dozen of the same car and build them all differently.

Not a soul on the message boards complained at how "fake" it was.

Gran Turismo is fantasy, so is collecting cars. I'm sure anyone that does collect cars IRL has money to spare even if it's just adding an induction kit to a Golf, you'd never go back to the "factory settings".

Except in "fantasy" land I have to wait a random amount of time until another golf shows up. I'd have less of a problem if I could just buy another golf easily. It shouldn't be hard to find a VW Golf in fantasy land.

Anyone who collects cars in real life can go online and find an old golf in minutes and then buy it.

I've yet to hear one reason why irreversible upgrades improve the gameplay.

 

[Devedander]

I'm sure anyone that does collect cars IRL has money to spare even if it's just adding an induction kit to a Golf, you'd never go back to the "factory settings".

And you would be wrong on both points.

And as I have said before, the point of a game should be entertainment... if I wanted more of the rules, limits and grinds that keep my real life from being fun, I would just get another job.

 

[Exorcet]

Some cars are a work of art straight out the factory, some need a little help.

That's opinion. I don't really see how it applies here though.

Gran Turismo is fantasy, so is collecting cars. I'm sure anyone that does collect cars IRL has money to spare even if it's just adding an induction kit to a Golf, you'd never go back to the "factory settings".

It doesn't matter what someone would do in real life. No one in real life would have 1000 cars and race everyday anyway. Also, how exactly did you come to the conclusion that a car will never go back to stock? That just sounds ridiculous. If the turbo makes the car lag like crazy, or causes the engine temp to shoot through the roof, the owner isn't going to buy a new car. He's going to take off the faulty part.

 

[GTP_geoff]

And you would be wrong on both points.

That's a very "******re" response.

Sorry, but when i make improvements to something i never want to go back. It's just the way i am. (IRL)

As for selling a car with improvements on it, that's how i sell it, i don't take them off because i'll make more money splitting it up, i only sell to someone who appreciates the benefits i've added.

I can't be bothered with the mundane grind of life either, i choose to ignore it and inject a freshness each day.

 

[tinram]

Engine stages you can't go back in real life ...
port hole polish
Engine balancing
etc.

Weight reduction ... use balast .... that's why it's there!

The point of the game is realism, to a point. If you don't like it ... it's not for you. There are more "fun" games out there ... try those.

Some of us actually find fun in realism. Otherwise there is always Mario Kart.

 

[Exorcet]

Sorry, but when i make improvements to something i never want to go back. It's just the way i am. (IRL)

But that's only you. If you're basing your assumptions on yourself only, then what you're saying doesn't mean much.

The point of the game is realism, to a point. If you don't like it ... it's not for you. There are more fun games out there ... try those.

No one is asking for anything that doesn't belong in a sim. All you need to do to get around permanent tunes is buy a new car, which is a bit of a tall order in real life (not to mention it would be cheaper to buy a new engine and replace the tuned one, a more realistic option than the game's permanent tunes). Permanent tunes are just a hassle. They don't really prevent anything, they just get in your way. If you want to have them for whatever reason, it would be as simple as going to an updated options menu and selecting "permanent tunes on".

 

[GTP_geoff]

That's opinion. I don't really see how it applies here though.



It doesn't matter what someone would do in real life. No one in real life would have 1000 cars and race everyday anyway. Also, how exactly did you come to the conclusion that a car will never go back to stock? That just sounds ridiculous. If the turbo makes the car lag like crazy, or causes the engine temp to shoot through the roof, the owner isn't going to buy a new car. He's going to take off the faulty part.

Surely the parts not faulty, just a bad decision in the first place?

Anyway this is about GT5 and it's meant to be "The Real Simulator". I'm just used to the restrictions having played it since the first version.

 

[trk29]

Are we even talking about the same thing?

I buy a car, and I add a turbo and a stage 1 engine tune. I want to join a race that has a hp limit that my car exceeds. I can remove the turbo with the click of a button, but I can't remove the engine tuning at all, ever.

What does this have to do with door handles or other racing games or "cool" cars?

Sorry I misread your post you said door cards not handles what is a door card anyway.

I still don't see how you plan to remove engine tuning without replacing the motor which would make no sense unless it was needed.

 

[GTP_geoff]

But that's only you. If you're basing your assumptions on yourself only, then what you're saying doesn't mean much.

My assumptions are my opinions, aren't yours? I'm sure a few people will agree and a few will disagree, that's how discussion works.

But back to the topic, restrictions are the precursor to improvements. "Rome wasn't built in a day".

 

[Exorcet]

Surely the parts not faulty, just a bad decision in the first place?

In GT5 there are no faulty parts, but there is tuning shop with a minimum amount of data on the parts you're purchasing.

Anyway this is about GT5 and it's meant to be "The Real Simulator". I'm just used to the restrictions having played it since the first version.

And as a sim, GT does not need to force you to do everything as you would in real life. For one, your garage would probably be in the single digits.

I'm not trying to take away your restrictions, and I'm not asking for anything that will make the game less realistic. What I am asking for is something that lets me enjoy the sim part more instead of needing to deal with the game part. GT simulates driving and to a degree, racing. Just about everything else is more game than sim.

I still don't see how you plan to remove engine tuning without replacing the motor which would make no sense unless it was needed.

Well, how many people end up with a car over tuned for an unless race. If they wanted in, they would need to replace their engine if it had unremoveable tunes. Same thing in real life. Dodge wanted to enter the Viper into a racing series that banned V-10 engines. All they had to do was make the engine a V-8. In real life, you can do this. In GT5 you can't. The realism argument doesn't really work. And also remember, that even if you can't think of a reason to do something, it doesn't mean there is no reason.

My assumptions are my opinions, aren't yours? I'm sure a few people will agree and a few will disagree, that's how discussion works.

You're free to say that you would never "detune" something. However, you can never use that a reason why no one should detune something. That's what I'm saying.

 

[Devedander]

That's a very "******re" response.

In this case I can comfortably make such a response because I know some gearheads who do exactly what you said people wouldn't do.

See you made a blanket statement and that means that all I have to do is find one example where your statement is false and you are then wrong.

And so you are wrong on both parts. For a fact I know at least 2 or 3 examples and I suspect that it's actually quite common.

I know people who collect cars but live hand to mouth and I also know people who routinely supe up cars and then return them to stock or removed the performance parts.

So yes... you are wrong.

Sorry, but when i make improvements to something i never want to go back. It's just the way i am. (IRL)

So what you meant to say is I would never do those things (or at least haven't yet).

Completely different statements.

As for selling a car with improvements on it, that's how i sell it, i don't take them off because i'll make more money splitting it up, i only sell to someone who appreciates the benefits i've added.

I can't be bothered with the mundane grind of life either, i choose to ignore it and inject a freshness each day.

I don't know where or who you sell to but I have never seen a modified car sell for anything near what it's parted value would be (unless it's some award winning special car or something) for multiple reasons - I find people generally shy away from modded cars becuase being modded implies being driven hard and thus being worn out more than normal.

Also unless someone wants exactly what you have done to your car, I have always found that they will not pay you much for the upgrades you have done (for instance if I like your turbo booster I might be willing to pay for it and save having to install one myself, but if I don't like your wheels, I am probaly not going to give you much money for them and might even look at it as an expense as I now have to go buy wheels I do like).

 

[super cirrus]

Engine stages you can't go back in real life ...
port hole polish
Engine balancing
etc.

Buy a new block? New crank? Nothing is irreversible.

 

[VQuick]

Another example of this issue is the race modification for cars. I really don't like using the titanium race exhaust on cars because it changes the sound too much, and leads to the 'vacuum cleaner' noise that so many complain about. When you racemod a car, it gets that exhaust and it cannot be removed.

Real race teams use different sets of parts for fine-tuning all the time. Different courses call for different equipment. It shouldn't be a stretch to expect the same from the GT franchise, especially with the emphasis on racing.

PD already took a step in the right direction with the custom transmission, but that was a long time ago. We need them to follow through and extend this approach to everything.



On a side-note, more detailed engine tuning with better gains and more influence over the powerband would also be helpful. For example, give us cams that extend the rev range and higher compression pistons that not only improve power but can also reduce turbo lag. Some cars do not have the option for a turbo or supercharger, and the low options and weak gains for engine tuning really hurts them in terms of usability in the game.

 

[Tornado]

Sorry, but when i make improvements to something i never want to go back. It's just the way i am. (IRL)

But the way you are can not be applied as if it is a universal truth, because it simply isn't.
My dad currently owns a highly modified, can't-be-driven-in-the-snow-because-of-certain-performance-parts VW. So when he started driving the car in the winter, you know what he did? He certainly didn't go out and buy another VW Cabrio. No, he actually just spent an afternoon taking off the offending parts and replacing them with the stock parts that allowed him to use the car in early winter driving.

 

[VQuick]

Engine stages you can't go back in real life ...
port hole polish
Engine balancing
etc.

Weight reduction ... use balast .... that's why it's there!

The point of the game is realism, to a point. If you don't like it ... it's not for you. There are more "fun" games out there ... try those.

Some of us actually find fun in realism. Otherwise there is always Mario Kart.

Buy a new block? New crank? Nothing is irreversible.

Correct. An easy workaround for PD would be to include phrases in part descrptions like: 'Replaces your cylinder heads with new polished and ported heads' or 'Replaces your stock engine block with a strengthened block featuring blueprinted and balanced internals.'

This implies that the stock parts are kept intact and at your disposal should you need them later. That's what we want, right? This is the whole point of the thread. The 'reversal' of these modifications is feasible in the real world, and a bit of code work will bring it to the world of GT5 as well.

It's not as if PD is new to this, either. They threw in the 'low compression pistons and appropriate fuel upgrades' in the description with the turbos in GT4, and now even matching intercoolers are included with the turbos in GT5.

 

[billren2k3]

Maybe the Engine Overhaul ought to revert the engine to stock condition with all the parts that were fitted before, allocated to the car so that you can refit the ones you want,

Now that is a great idea for both the non removeable engine modifications as well as the chassis overhaul for weight reductions. It would make it worth it for your virtual dollar. I usually do not add on any modifications other than suspension and transmission upgrades as I like to tinker with set ups. Adding on too much power or taking away too much weight can take away the intended feel of a car for me but do have a few cars maxed out for fun or taking on Indy. What you are suggesting would work nicely 👍

 

[frozzie]

Just buy 2 cars - one for tuning, one for purity!

 

[Devedander]

Just buy 2 cars - one for tuning, one for purity!

Better yet, buy 4 cars, one for each stage of NA tune!

Even better buy a a dozen so you can have every combination of unremovable parts and unremoveable tunes...

 

[brainfade]

They can't be removed in real life that's why they can't be removed in game, the engine and weight reduction are complete overhauls which effectively leave you with a different car in some cases.

How the hell can you play GT5 and not pick-up/know jack-all about cars? Did come from NFS-lala-land or something?

 

[Devedander]

They can't be removed in real life that's why they can't be removed in game, the engine and weight reduction are complete overhauls which effectively leave you with a different car in some cases.

How the hell can you play GT5 and not pick-up/know jack-all about cars? Did come from NFS-lala-land or something?

Have you read this thread at all?

How can you join into a multipage thread and not pick-up/know jack-all about what people are talking about and how they have already addressed the exact points you just used to support your argument?

Did you just come from GT fanboy land or something?

 

[trk29]

But the way you are can not be applied as if it is a universal truth, because it simply isn't.
My dad currently owns a highly modified, can't-be-driven-in-the-snow-because-of-certain-performance-parts VW. So when he started driving the car in the winter, you know what he did? He certainly didn't go out and buy another VW Cabrio. No, he actually just spent an afternoon taking off the offending parts and replacing them with the stock parts that allowed him to use the car in early winter driving.

I have to ask. I don't really understand what you would classify as performance parts that limit him from driving in the snow. Tires maybe but if you are talking about aero parts that is not really high performance. So forgive me for guessing.

Or you could make it easier and tell us what these parts are we might understand we are on a forum about cars.

 

[freedomweasel]

Weight reduction ... use balast .... that's why it's there!

The point of the game is realism, to a point. If you don't like it ... it's not for you. There are more "fun" games out there ... try those.

Some of us actually find fun in realism. Otherwise there is always Mario Kart.

How do you ensure you're not changing the weight distribution? You can't, because GT doesn't tell you.

Offering up games like Mario Kart as replacements for GT is old, pointless, and annoying. 👎

Sorry I misread your post you said door cards not handles what is a door card anyway.

Door cards are the panels on the inside of your door made of plastic, leather, etc. They are removed when tearing out the interior to cut weight. My point was that when you tear crap out of your car, you can put it back in.

Just buy 2 cars - one for tuning, one for purity!

This would be fine, except I can't just buy a standard car because the game won't let me. I either have to tune the car and hope it turns out, or wait until a second one shows up in the lot so I know I'll have a stock one.

They can't be removed in real life that's why they can't be removed in game, the engine and weight reduction are complete overhauls which effectively leave you with a different car in some cases.

How the hell can you play GT5 and not pick-up/know jack-all about cars? Did come from NFS-lala-land or something?

Please explain how tearing out the interior and/or replacing body panels is an irreversible process?

Secondly, it's a game. Games should be fun. You can do plenty of fake stuff in the game already, and there are plenty of unrealistic things in the game, why not make it possible to remove engine tuning which would not normal be possible.
Even without that, why not let me buy a new engine block instead of having to wait for the car to show up in the used lot again. It's a system that adds nothing to the game.

I've still yet to hear how this improves the game.

 

[Devedander]

I've still yet to hear how this improves the game.

This is what I always wonder... amid a fray of excuses and rationalizations why something isn't BAD why does no one ever explain why it's good?