Not being able to remove engine/weight stages = DUMB!!!!

[deftonesmx17]

So inaccurate in your favor is okay but inaccurate not in your favor is not okay?

A close representation is more important than no representation. Like I 🤬 said, developers of real simulators would more than agree with me on that.

Driving physics, by the way, does not equal "why didn't this no-name imaginary suspension component subtract an arbitrary amount of weight".

Lol, mass in any of its forms is a very important part of any physics equation.

Honestly, there's way too many variables to assume every aftermarket part will reduce weight by "X" from every car. You realize they also probably don't penalize you with extra weight for turbo/supercharging a car that is NA stock? Does that bother you?

For staters, I don't think GT5 even lets you do this. Anyways, yes Forza does indeed add weight when making changes such as this.

If you allow something so pointless to prevent you from enjoying the game...well, I feel sorry for you.

I'm not, but I am clearly pointing out that using realism as an excuse for not being able to detune a car is not a valid excuse considering how unrealistic GT5's tuning is in the first place.

As for curb weight, I wasn't exactly saying that is what they are referring to, but lighter is lighter no matter how you look at it. How many time do I have to repeat myself by saying that I fully 🤬 understand that weight reduction is not the real reason for replacing your drive shaft, but it is indeed a factor. I used it as an example because the lowest common denominator as you said can clearly understand the words light-weight.

 

[Devedander]

The engine tuning increases the bore of the engine, includes polishing of ports and modifications that require new parts. You wanna change your mind on that in real life then you need a new engine.

Let's say you do... that's not the same as needing a new car... especially a new car on which you cannot use the bolt on mods you had on your last car like in GT5 (ie I can't just strap a new engine into my car in GT let alone transport my turbo and exhaust from my NA tuned car to my ew car).

And that's assuming you really can't just sleeve your engine back to stock displacement and put your stock parts back in.

All these excuses, assumptions and ratoinalizatons that don't even really hold up under scrutiny are still ignoring the fact that this is a game.

A games job is to distill the enjoyable parts of life and put them all together, not necessarily hamper you at every corner real life would... as I keep saying, if I wanted that I would just get another job.

People always say things like "realistic damage and tire blowouts are left out because it would just be frustrating and not fun" well ok, then put IN the things that fix other frustrating and not fun issues... just becuase it can be justified against some real life difficulty doens't mean it's a good idea in a game...

As has been brought up before, stop justifying why it's not bad and start to ask "is it any good?"

Because that's largely the question PD appears not to have asked themselves with lots of design decisions in GT5 and that's why we are where we are.

 

[charliec]

A close representation is more important than no representation. Like I 🤬 said, developers of real simulators would more than agree with me on that.

My point is you're assuming it's a close representation. You're assuming something would reduce weight and not add weight. And this is not a real simulator. Real simulators don't take lump values and arbitrarily apply them to things, they actually use accurate measurements. That's why they're called simulators, not guesstimators.

Lol, mass is a very important part of any physics equation.

Right. And the way the physics engine applies the calculated mass is what matters from a gaming experience. The point we're discussing is how much mass (and distribution of mass) goes into the physics engine to start with, not the way that the physics engine handles that mass during the game.

For staters, I don't think GT5 even lets you do this. Anyways, yes Forza does indeed add weight when making changes such as this.

Yes, you can add FI to NA vehicles. It's good Forza adds weight in, but again, to what level of accuracy? If you're changing from a smaller stock turbo to a larger high boost turbo on a WRX, does that add weight? What if you change from a twin-turbo application to single-turbo on a Supra, does that reduce weight?

I'm not, but I am clearly pointing out that using realism as an excuse for not being able to detune a car is not a valid excuse considering how unrealistic GT5's tuning is in the first place.

I definitely agree, I mean, it's been pointed out repeatedly, but the ability to add an ECU to any vehicle is enough to show there's no grounding in reality. It's simplified and blanketed tuning principles applied haphazardly to lots of different car models. It's not accurate or realistic at all.

As for curb weight, I wasn't exactly saying that is what they are referring to, but lighter is lighter no matter how you look at it. How many time do I have to repeat myself by saying that I fully 🤬 understand that weight reduction is not the real reason for replacing your drive shaft, but it is indeed a factor. I used it as an example because the lowest common denominator as you said can clearly understand the words light-weight.

Don't get angry, I was responding to your statment, "I know people don't buy carbon driveshafts just to reduce curb weight. However, since everyone seems to think that isn't important, why is it normally the first thing companies use as an example of it's advantage??".

My point was that I rarely (if ever) recall seeing a reduction in curb weight listed as a benefit of a CF or aluminum drive shaft, much less being "normally the first thing".

 

[deftonesmx17]

My point is you're assuming it's a close representation. You're assuming something would reduce weight and not add weight. And this is not a real simulator. Real simulators don't take lump values and arbitrarily apply them to things, they actually use accurate measurements. That's why they're called simulators, not guesstimators.

You're clearly ignoring that real life is flawed. Even two of the exact same pieces of molded metal will not have the exact same weight. There will be a small level of innacuracy, even in real life. This is something that is near impossible to simulate, so yeah even real simulators have to use close as possible representation in regards to things like this.

Right. And the way the physics engine applies the calculated mass is what matters from a gaming experience. The point we're discussing is how much mass (and distribution of mass) goes into the physics engine to start with, not the way that the physics engine handles that mass during the game.

And GT does not even calculate these changes in mass, thus the equation is flawed; even from a gaming experience.

Yes, you can add FI to NA vehicles. It's good Forza adds weight in, but again, to what level of accuracy? If you're changing from a smaller stock turbo to a larger high boost turbo on a WRX, does that add weight? What if you change from a twin-turbo application to single-turbo on a Supra, does that reduce weight?

Really, GT doesnt let me add either to the Murcielago. Even though it can be done in real life. It also doen't give me the option of a drive-train swap in order to make it rear-wheel like the real-life Murcielago R-GT. Guess what game does allow me to do that....
Regardless of that, GT seems to lock in whatever was the stock forced induction.

Forza does indeed reduce weight when going from twin-turbo to single turbo and vice-versa and yes larger turbos add weight. Not only that, but it does not use generic parts like GT does. The parts are from real aftermarket manufactures that probably provided them with the parts data. A prime example of close tuning representation.

Don't get angry, I was responding to your statment, "I know people don't buy carbon driveshafts just to reduce curb weight. However, since everyone seems to think that isn't important, why is it normally the first thing companies use as an example of it's advantage??".

That was poor sentence structure on my part.

I'm getting angry because you completely disregard close representation vs no representation.
A small inaccuracy is far less damaging than complete inaccuracy; any engineer on the planet would agree with that.



Before the Gran Turismo Defense Force attacks me for using the word Forza; I was merely using it as an example proving my request was not unreasonable seeing as how another company at least made some attempt to provide more accurate tuning.

 

[charliec]

You're clearly ignoring that real life is flawed. Even two of the exact same pieces of molded metal will not have the exact same weight. There will be a small level of innacuracy, even in real life.

You're missing my point.

Okay, as an example, my car in real life (S2000) has a thin aluminum hood (stock). So, in the game, if I buy a carbon fiber hood for an S2000, I get the same weight savings as everyone else. In real life, if I buy a carbon fiber hood, it can weigh as much or more than the OEM hood it's replacing. So, it's not a matter of it being off by a few pounds, it's a matter of it moving the weight in the wrong direction.

Without having specific data for the components you're replacing, the game is forced to make blanket assumptions. This is not accurate. On any level. I don't really care personally, because it's par for the course in the tuning section, but you can't really say "assuming X" is more accurate because it may be exactly opposite of what's accurate.

In Gran Turismo tuning, certain components have certain roles. CF hoods and light weight windows reduce weight and lower your center of gravity. CF drive shaft reduces rotating mass and increases engine acceleration (same as lightweight fly wheel). Turbos increase power (and probably shift power band to the right). I mean, it's all simplified, and in real life all those things have additional multiple characteristics (including weight or lack of) that aren't shown in the game. This is how it's always been. I'd rather it not be, but it's been consistent for over a decade, we can't really act that surprised at how it works now.

And GT does not even calculate these changes in mass, thus the equation is falwed, even from a gaming experience.

It just means that your car weighs the same with a roll cage as without a roll cage. It doesn't make the physics or handling less accurate, it just means the vehicle it's modeling may be less accurate. I don't see this as a huge issue though since you're having to make assumptions about what "accurate" would be at that point, since it's virtual parts with no real life counterpart.

Really, GT doesnt let me add either to the LP640. Even though it can be done in real life. It also doen't give me the option of a drive-train swap in order to make it rear-wheel like the R-GT.
BTW, Forza does indeed reduce weight when going from twin-turbo to single turbo and vice-versa and yes larger turbos have more weight.

Honestly, that's cool then that Forza tries to take more stuff into account with tuning. They also have engine swap options, etc right? I know Forza has always had a more expanded tuning and customization set up. And like I said, tuning has never been the focus in the Gran Turismo series. That's why I'm so surprised people are acting shocked about this stuff. This is Gran Turismo. This is how tuning works.

I'm getting angry because you completely disregard close representation vs no representation.
A small inaccuracy is far less damaging than complete inaccuracy; any engineer on the planet would agree with that.

My point though was that you're assuming it's a closer representation. Applying a blanket principle across 1000+ cars is going to have inaccuracies (and in some cases, completely opposite results).

 

[GrimSinn]

::Attempts to remove over-bored cylinders::

Hmm, they won't move. Maybe if I just put the old pistons back in...
Oh noes! My compression ratio just dropped to 1:1!!

Rolf

Dont worry just toss a lil oil in your cylinders and it will go back up (lol not for long)
Let me try to reattach the aluminum I porter off the head, lol


Not to mention some weight reductions are irreversible for example the sound deadening would be ripped out, you can't just put back in the old you would news to redo the work with new material, many thing need to be broken to be removed or just break when removing them (it was the other guy) in order to bring it back to stock there would need to be a "OEM" part store in the game (lol)

It's the same for if you port the head, you can always put back an OEM head or if you bore the block you can replace it (lol) with one that wasn't bored out in man spec, but where would you buy it?

Funny topic, but it's an opportunity to learn about modding , in GT it's pretty easy just add ballast and or use the power limited.

 

[freedomweasel]

Funny topic, but it's an opportunity to learn about modding , in GT it's pretty easy just add ballast and or use the power limited.

This was covered at least twice in the thread.

Power limiter changes the curve, and thus does not bring a car back to stock.

You cant tell you the weight distribution so you can't just add ballast to go back to stock weight.

 

[deftonesmx17]

You're missing my point.

No, I don't believe I am.

Okay, as an example, my car in real life (S2000) has a thin aluminum hood (stock). So, in the game, if I buy a carbon fiber hood for an S2000, I get the same weight savings as everyone else. In real life, if I buy a carbon fiber hood, it can weigh as much or more than the OEM hood it's replacing. So, it's not a matter of it being off by a few pounds, it's a matter of it moving the weight in the wrong direction.

Right, but someone with a Dodge viper is not going to see the exact same weight loss. In GT5 no matter what the car is, it is the same exact weight loss.

Without having specific data for the components you're replacing, the game is forced to make blanket assumptions. This is not accurate. On any level. I don't really care personally, because it's par for the course in the tuning section, but you can't really say "assuming X" is more accurate because it may be exactly opposite of what's accurate.

As I said, the "other" game uses aftermarket parts from real manufactures who supplied them with the data for said components. Every car does not use the same generic aftermarket parts for every car, ala GT5. Gran Turismo is the game that makes blanket assumptions, while the "other" game tries to use individual data per car and part.

In Gran Turismo tuning, certain components have certain roles. CF hoods and light weight windows reduce weight and lower your center of gravity. CF drive shaft reduces rotating mass and increases engine acceleration (same as lightweight fly wheel). Turbos increase power (and probably shift power band to the right). I mean, it's all simplified, and in real life all those things have additional multiple characteristics (including weight or lack of) that aren't shown in the game. This is how it's always been. I'd rather it not be, but it's been consistent for over a decade, we can't really act that surprised at how it works now.

Being the same as it's always been is the problem. That shows a clear lack of innovation and to me is a major problem. Take a real car manufacture for example. If one stagnates and satys the same while the other company moves forward, which product is better. Would the Evo X or R35 be what they are today if they were the same as they were a decade ago? I mean come on...

It just means that your car weighs the same with a roll cage as without a roll cage. It doesn't make the physics or handling less accurate, it just means the vehicle it's modeling may be less accurate. I don't see this as a huge issue though since you're having to make assumptions about what "accurate" would be at that point, since it's virtual parts with no real life counterpart.

Yes, it does make the physics less accurate. I honestly can't believe that you can even try to argue that it doesn't. Actually I can prove how it makes it less accurate.
Weight-shift...
If the weight is not being calculated correctly then resulting weight-shift will be inaccurate. Therefore, the handling is not being accurately portrayed.

Honestly, that's cool then that Forza tries to take more stuff into account with tuning. They also have engine swap options, etc right? I know Forza has always had a more expanded tuning and customization set up. And like I said, tuning has never been the focus in the Gran Turismo series. That's why I'm so surprised people are acting shocked about this stuff. This is Gran Turismo. This is how tuning works.

Yes, engine swaps, drivetrain swaps, many options regarding FI swaps (both centrifugal and twin-screw supercharges, single or twin-turbo).
The game may have questionable tire-grip and a hidden steering assist, but if you are a tuning person the possibilites are off the chart.
The best part, when looking at parts in said "other" game, it will show you the power curve, weight change, ect. right then and there. It drives me insane how I must buy the part first in GT and then go to the tuning option to see the change in power curve.

My point though was that you're assuming it's a closer representation. Applying a blanket principle across 1000+ cars is going to have inaccuracies (and in some cases, completely opposite results).

The "other" game does not use blanket principles across all the cars. Most everything is different depending on the car, which is much closer representation.

Excuse me if I seemed pissed at you as I am not. I am just annoyed in general with the excuse of realism in regards to GT considering how unrealistic certain things are. If the tuning is already unrealistic, why would it matter if reversing certain things that you can't in real life was included.

 

[Devedander]

Excuse me if I seemed pissed at you as I am not. I am just annoyed in general with the excuse of realism in regards to GT considering how unrealistic certain things are. If the tuning is already unrealistic, why would it matter if reversing certain things that you can't in real life was included.

This has been a longstanding annoyance of mine too...

The double standards of when realism is important (oil change!) when it's excuseably absent (it's always been that way) and when it's better that it's not there (realistic race ending damage) have always been so glaring around here...

Now to be fair it tends to be the results of multiple people all with different views, but the fact that they all speak those views as if they are fact I find makes the positions useless and conflicting.

For instance in this very thread we have seen how the fact that you "can't" undo these things IRL is a good reason to have them not reversable in GT5 (while you CAN reverse them in IRL) but in this same forum race ending damage is considered a good thing to leave out since it would make the game less fun despite being real... well this makes the game less fun despite being real too.

It's a constant dance of say what backs up this particular point without worrying about the logic in general....

 

[charliec]

No, I don't believe I am.


Right, but someone with a Dodge viper is not going to see the exact same weight loss. In GT5 no matter what the car is, it is the same exact weight loss.

As I said, the "other" game uses aftermarket parts from real manufactures who supplied them with the data for said components. Every car does not use the same generic aftermarket parts for every car, ala GT5. Gran Turismo is the game that makes blanket assumptions, while the "other" game tries to use individual data per car and part.

I think we're saying the same thing (or at least have the same outlook) - that the tuning is unrealistic and unrelated (in large part, not entirely) to the vehicle specifics.

You're saying applying additional characteristics (weight loss from cf drive shaft and weight gain from chassis reinforcement, etc) would improve the level of realism. I'm saying (for the same reason - that the vehicle tuning is generic and not based on individual vehicle characteristics) that those characteristics would still be arbitrary and wouldn't necesarily improve the level of realism.

Fundamentally, the issue is still PD's implementation of tuning, which is very topical.

What I would like to happen is have the tuning adapt a more serious approach, and actually have it modeled with as much detail as they try and put into the particular cars. I don't know that this will ever happen though.

Yes, it does make the physics less accurate. I honestly can't believe that you can even try to argue that it doesn't. Actually I can prove how it makes it less accurate.
Weight-shift...
If the weight is not being calculated correctly then resulting weight-shift will be inaccurate. Therefore, the handling is not being accurately portrayed.

Look at the physics of a stock vehicle and then compare it to the physics of a vehicle that has had a cf drive shaft and chassis reinforcement upgrade done. You're focusing on the the fact that the car will not reflect a higher center of gravity and additional weight from the roll cage, only additional chassis stiffness and faster engine acceleration from the upgrades.

You're correct that the vehicle that is being modeled is not as "accurate" because those changes to balance are not being reflected and I agree 100% that this makes the physics of tuning less accurate.

The main reason I don't care too much about this is because the values they assign would be arbitrary. I know I can install a chassis reinforcement upgrade without increasing body roll, which isn't realistic, but I know if there was increased body roll, it would be from an arbitrary amount of weight (probably at an arbitrary height) and may apply just as much weight to a small Suzuki Cappuccino as it would to a Honda Odyssey minivan without respect to interior size or anything else.

My point is that the base physics engine is still better than the competitor "games" (in my opinion) and that what is being modeled is still being modeled well, the issue is just that those changes you're looking for aren't being made to the vehicle data. If PD decided to make the chassis reinforcement have mass and have that mass located in a certain position, that would be included in the physics.

The physics engine determines how the data behaves, but if PD chooses to not give data to certain things, it can't be modeled at all. Gotta have a good foundation though, which I think GT5 has.

Again though, I do agree, I'd obviously prefer for something to be present than not, but I want it done correctly. Having flat or proportional values for everything regardless of vehicle is just a shortcut and doesn't make things more "realistic" to me and certainly not more accurate.

Excuse me if I seemed pissed at you as I am not. I am just annoyed in general with the excuse of realism in regards to GT considering how unrealistic certain things are. If the tuning is already unrealistic, why would it matter if reversing certain things that you can't in real life was included.

No worries, trust me I'm right there with you. Short of having a car permanently wrecked or killing off my character in the game, I'm not sure that I could have it be too realistic for me. They do make some random decisions for how to apply "realism" in the game. If it didn't cost so damn much I'd love to sign up for iRacing but I can't see that happening at $99/year.

 

[deftonesmx17]

What I would like to happen is have the tuning adapt a more serious approach, and actually have it modeled with as much detail as they try and put into the particular cars. I don't know that this will ever happen though.

I highly suggest you give FM3 a spin. Yes, it has questionable tire-grip (so does GT5) and some form of hidden steering assist (because the 360 doesn’t have good wheel options and they knew 80-90% of the players would be using pads), but they have already done what you just said that you don't think will ever happen.

 

[brainfade]

This is an e-penis post if I have ever seen one

Not really, im just laughing at mere gamers such as yourselves who think they know it all just because they have no life other than a video game and fail to comprehend that anyone on this forum would have a life or even that Kaz Yamauchi has a life, how about leaving the bedroom and living a little eh?

 

[deftonesmx17]

Not really, im just laughing at mere gamers such as yourselves who think they know it all just because they have no life other than a video game and fail to comprehend that anyone on this forum would have a life or even that Kaz Yamauchi has a life, how about leaving the bedroom and living a little eh?

I am having a good laugh at how you needed to stroke your ego once again; don't you have something better to be doing?

 

[brainfade]

I am having a good laugh at how you needed to stroke your ego once again; don't you have something better to be doing?

It's called downtime after a day of WORKING because I have a professional job, which you don't and about to leave to GO OUT which is something you never do.

 

[deftonesmx17]

It's called downtime after a day of WORKING because I have a professional job, which you don't and about to leave to GO OUT which is something you never do.

There you go again, putting others down. Does it make you feel like more of a man, does it?
I posted all day long from my professional job thank you. What do you think about that? Yep, I have downtime at my professional job, a lot of it on certain days.

 

[brainfade]

There you go again, putting others down. Does it make you feel like more of a man, does it?
I posted all day long from my professional job thank you. What do you think about that? Yep, I have downtime at my professional job, a lot of it on certain days.

That just means you have a job that you neither want or enjoy if your dossing off looking over your shoulder to see if your boss isn't looking.

 

[deftonesmx17]

You just don't know when to quit do you? I like my job just fine thank you and I bet my boss looks at the internet more than any of her employees. I thought you were about to leave to GO OUT.

 

[Eldagore]

The arguments in this thread are borderline idiotic.

Lets see. In real life, I own 1000 cars, many of which are auto show proto types kept in factory museums or crazy rare vintage race cars. All of these cars I can take and race whenever I want. I can crash them into walls, other cars, or drive them on dirt roads or snow. I can tune any of them to well beyond where they were from the factory, and many of them well beyond what the factory frame and body could withstand. I can "hire" 6 of my own private drivers for my own race team....for free.... and they don't car what car I make them drive, or that I give them nothing for their efforts, nor will they care if I ignore them for months at a time. I am, however, frustrated that eventhough I own several mint examples of Lemans racers, I have to wait days and days to find a Fiat Punto to buy, because the one small used car dealer I frequent doesnt have it in it's inventory. That imaginary xj220 lemans racer looks nice though.

But you know, when it comes time to decide if I want to swap the heads on my engine with factoy stock ones, I am out of luck. After all, that is something that only happens in Mario Kart.

 

[Devedander]

The arguments in this thread are borderline idiotic.

Lets see. In real life, I own 1000 cars, many of which are auto show proto types kept in factory museums or crazy rare vintage race cars. All of these cars I can take and race whenever I want. I can crash them into walls, other cars, or drive them on dirt roads or snow. I can tune any of them to well beyond where they were from the factory, and many of them well beyond what the factory frame and body could withstand. I can "hire" 6 of my own private drivers for my own race team....for free.... and they don't car what car I make them drive, or that I give them nothing for their efforts, nor will they care if I ignore them for months at a time. I am, however, frustrated that eventhough I own several mint examples of Lemans racers, I have to wait days and days to find a Fiat Punto to buy, because the one small used car dealer I frequent doesnt have it in it's inventory. That imaginary xj220 lemans racer looks nice though.

But you know, when it comes time to decide if I want to swap the heads on my engine with factoy stock ones, I am out of luck. After all, that is something that only happens in Mario Kart.

You think you got it good, I got a crew of racing mecahnics who happily swap trannys and exhaust systems for me all day but won't change my oil unless I hand over 50Cr.

I got a deal with a tire company that makes tires for every car in the world and prices based only on compound. For a flat rate per car I get unlimited tires for the rest of my life! And these aren't just regular old tires, these are puncture and blowout proof tires! Absolutely will never fail! I guess it's because they are solid rubber tires... I mean I can't think of any other reason there is no air valve for me to ajust tire pressure...

If only I could find a brake company that would sell me some brakes... any brakes... I put over 100k Cr into upgrading my Miata but it's still got it's stock brakes. It's cool thought I guess... I sprayed this stuff on them and these stock brakes can carry a fully modded 3 ton truck 24 hours at the ring without wearing a 32nd.

It's cool though because the miata still looks friggin sweet! I got this paint shop... I guess their paint mixing computer is broken and they lost their catalogue or something because they can only paint my car the color of another car I already own or have owned in the past as long as I make sure to ding a piece of paint off it for safe keeping... I do that with all my show cars and stuff you know. But I guess the guy working the gun isn't too bright becuause if I want a two tone job I have to show him a car with those exact colors already on it...

But man, you should see how he chromes the absolute ******** out of stuff!

Our used car dealers must be related! I also only go to one guy with tiny stock who (despite apparently being his only business since whatever cars he has don't get sold to anyone but me until he rolls them off the lot in the same order they came on) won't hold a car for me or even notify me in anyway if a car I am looking for pops up. Lazy bastard... But it's cool, he manages to get his hands on pristine rare race cars from all generations that people have driven without maintenance until the oil is just sludge in the block.

It's cool though, between stints of banging out all the damage I can put into a car after hours ramming walls (unless I was in superman mode where my car is impervious to damage) for free, I slip my slave mechanics 50Cr and they will change the oil in my new used car. These guys are slick too... one guy drains the oil AND FILLS it all from under the car!

Lifes good but I am thinking of switching to that Mario Kart deal... free banannas... price of produce just keeps going up... it's hard to resist!

 

[oopssorryy]

There are some things you can't reverse on an engine. You can mill down the block or head to raise your compression ratio, that can't be undone. You can bore out you engine, again can't be undone. Port and Polish and gasket matching also can't be undone. While taking out your pistons, rods, crank, valves, valve springs, camshafts, ext, can be done it would take a lot longer to do than you might think, and if you have done certain engine mods to your car, the stock parts will not fit back into your car.

 

[Devedander]

I give up.

 

[GrimSinn]

There are some things you can't reverse on an engine. You can mill down the block or head to raise your compression ratio, that can't be undone. You can bore out you engine, again can't be undone. Port and Polish and gasket matching also can't be undone. While taking out your pistons, rods, crank, valves, valve springs, camshafts, ext, can be done it would take a lot longer to do than you might think, and if you have done certain engine mods to your car, the stock parts will not fit back into your car.

You can't tell people who think they know what they are talking about that they are wrong, that only shuts their eyes even more.

I just finished tearing down and rebuilding a engine in my mechanics class. Where in GT can I buy new gaskets and bearings or a stock head (you can Never "un-port" a head you need a OEM replacement, you can never un-bore a motor, you need to replace the block.) where in GT can I get an OEM head or block? lol

The game is not perfect, but don't complain about something they get right, or close enough. You should only be able to add and remove bolt on's freely, anything including internals should be permanent.

Ohh and IRL you only get the dyno graph after doing the mod then doing a pull, you don't always get what you expect, and never get the info in advance be glad you will at least get the peak increase as again IRL not gonna happen.

It's also hard to understand a insistence on authenticity except when it suits our wants, as in the case here.

In any case as mentioned before ballast and the power limiter will do what the op needs in regards to fine tuning his power/weight for PP restrictions.

 

[Devedander]

You can't tell people who think they know what they are talking about that they are wrong, that only shuts their eyes even more.

I just finished tearing down and rebuilding a engine in my mechanics class. Where in GT can I buy new gaskets and bearings or a stock head (you can Never "un-port" a head you need a OEM replacement, you can never un-bore a motor, you need to replace the block.) where in GT can I get an OEM head or block? lol

The game is not perfect, but don't complain about something they get right, or close enough. You should only be able to add and remove bolt on's freely, anything including internals should be permanent.

Ohh and IRL you only get the dyno graph after doing the mod then doing a pull, you don't always get what you expect, and never get the info in advance be glad you will at least get the peak increase as again IRL not gonna happen.

It's also hard to understand a insistence on authenticity except when it suits our wants, as in the case here.

In any case as mentioned before ballast and the power limiter will do what the op needs in regards to fine tuning his power/weight for PP restrictions.

 

[GrimSinn]

Wow this guy can post pic replies, hats off to originality, yawn.

 

[Tornado]

In any case as mentioned before ballast and the power limiter will do what the op needs in regards to fine tuning his power/weight for PP restrictions.

The really funny thing is that you've already been directly told why this is an invalid argument, in addition at least two other times in this thread where this was discussed, yet you still post it as if it means anything. But hey, nothing more original than completely ignoring every post in this topic (including ones that were direct responses to yours), then acting like everyone else is ignorant just because they disagree with you.



Which is probably why your rant about how we are all stupid because you are a mechanic in real life was responded to with a facepalm image.

 

[GrimSinn]

The fact of the matter is OP wants to fine tune his weight/power for PP limited events. That CAN be done with power limiter and ballast. Wether he's switching parts or fiddling with the slider, the difference between a 10hp gain from a bolt on will be negligible against a 20hp gain from a bolt on with 10hp limited. Agreed the weight location when using ballast to get that lil difference made up will be hard to place precisely where it was removed but I'll bet a million bucks OP won't be able to tell the difference anyways. So WTFC..,

Yeah I repeated it cause it's still true.

I'll leave GTP if you can yell me where I added the ballast weight to a car or tell me from driving if the HP boost is a bolt on's max gain or if the gain was higher but HP limited.

Because if you can't tell the diff, what does it matter except in you're own head.

This is just another GT5 boohoo moment. Need a tissue for your issue? lol

 

[sesselpupser]

Where in GT can I buy new gaskets and bearings or a stock head (you can Never "un-port" a head you need a OEM replacement, you can never un-bore a motor, you need to replace the block.) where in GT can I get an OEM head or block?

While I do agree with you, it could be argued that in a game where you have an unlimited supply of tyres and damage is repaired for free, we should be allowed to reverse mods on our cars. Personally I like that there are irreversible mods, I mean in GT4 a stage 3 weight reduction involved reskinning the car in carbon fibre, possibly even remaking the entire thing in CF, how and why would you reverse something as drastic as that?

However, I would like to have the option to restore the engine back to the original, but only if PD brought back a method of storing several tunes for one car. Until then I'm fine with buying more than one of the same car, so yeah.

 

[GrimSinn]

While I do agree with you, it could be argued that in a game where you have an unlimited supply of tyres and damage is repaired for free, we should be allowed to reverse mods on our cars. Personally I like that there are irreversible mods, I mean in GT4 a stage 3 weight reduction involved reskinning the car in carbon fibre, possibly even remaking the entire thing in CF, how and why would you reverse something as drastic as that?

However, I would like to have the option to restore the engine back to the original, but only if PD brought back a method of storing several tunes for one car. Until then I'm fine with buying more than one of the same car, so yeah.

Yeah, a restore to original option would be alright. I guess the cost of restoring to original is the cost of a new model (megga cheaper to buy a car all put together then all parted out) Dems the breaks though I guess.

 

[FlourescentBlak]

Read to page 4 of this thread then skipped right to last because it seems people are arguing just to argue. Or something like that anyway.

I agree with the OP that engine stages and weight reduction should be reversable.

Question. If I buy engine stage 1 and weight reduction 1 then use the power limiter and ballast function to revert back to the origional power and weight will my PP will be different that having left the car stock? I would test this out right now but I'm out until later today.

If after using the power limiter and ballast function the cars PP is the same as having left it stock the fact that these upgrades are permanent wouldn't bother me so much. I just suspect that the PP will calculate different and that GT5 rewards you for leaving your power and weight as close to stock as possible.

I would be happy with a restore to origional button as well.

 

[Devedander]

Wow this guy can post pic replies, hats off to originality, yawn.

OK then:

You can't tell people who think they know what they are talking about that they are wrong, that only shuts their eyes even more.

The irony here is rich. The same people keep using the same lame excuses like "are you gonna put back the iron filings from boring out your engine?" and "where you gonna get those stock pistons? They are in a landfill somewhere now!"

First it was argued it's impossible to undo, then it's explained in detail how it's absolutely not and at the VERY worst a new engine can be bought.

Then it's argued that it's impractical and no one undoes upgrades on their cars IRL.

It's explained that it's far more practical than buying a whole new car (which can't receive the mods you bought for your other identical car so those all have to be rebought) and people DO undo performance upgrades IRL.

Then it gets reduced to "yeah but there is no place/option for that in GT5"...

Well herpa derp THATS WHAT THE OP IS TALKING ABOUT! Why isn't it?

I just finished tearing down and rebuilding a engine in my mechanics class. Where in GT can I buy new gaskets and bearings or a stock head (you can Never "un-port" a head you need a OEM replacement, you can never un-bore a motor, you need to replace the block.) where in GT can I get an OEM head or block? lol

Where are you gonna get OEM parts? Seriously? You are asking about where to get OEM parts in a game with a used car lot that gets a 2J and Gulia? In a game where you get unlimited replacement body panels, lights, wheels, axles etc and not only do you get them, they get gotten magically for free for ever and you want to question geteting OEM parts?

I CAN get OEM parts IRL... come one!

So guess who keeps getting told and keeps shutting their eyes harder and harder... yup... open your eyes and if you happen to be in front of a mirror, you will have your answer.

The game is not perfect, but don't complain about something they get right, or close enough. You should only be able to add and remove bolt on's freely, anything including internals should be permanent.

Well you better tell PD they forgot and not only do I get to constantly swap out transmissions back and forth, it's free every time...

So no... this is not right and again, it's been explained to you over and over again why.

Ohh and IRL you only get the dyno graph after doing the mod then doing a pull, you don't always get what you expect, and never get the info in advance be glad you will at least get the peak increase as again IRL not gonna happen.

And IRL your tires occasionally go flat and your engine will occasionally throw a rod. IRL you can usually get a replacement engine or even have one built for less than the cost of another car. You can't use IRL as your excuse if you are gonna pick and choose where to apply it as a good or bad thing.

It's also hard to understand a insistence on authenticity except when it suits our wants, as in the case here.

Simple: The point of a game is to distill the real experience into it's enjoyable portions and make otherwise unattainable experiences attainable.

If the authenticity invovles your experience of the event in the game then that's a positive.

If it involves an unenjoyable portion it's probably a negative.

This is not the real engine tuning simulator as is greatly evidenced by the tuning screen and it's completely generic list of parts all of which wiegh nothing. The limitation in question does nothing to help the driving simulation experience, only make it more restrictive and less streamlined and enjoyable.

In any case as mentioned before ballast and the power limiter will do what the op needs in regards to fine tuning his power/weight for PP restrictions.

And as mentioned the balast and engine restrictor do not necessarily properly undo these changes (and you are assuming what the OP wants, he doesn't say that), they do OTHER changes that don't necessarily result in the original situation at all (power curves change and who knows where the weight is removed from vs where it's put back).

So yeah...

Irony = thick.