Notes on Maximising A-Spec Points

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When trying to maximise points which tyres offer the most points? Ie, if I put N1s on the front do I get more points than S1s and R1s with the same line up?

N1's give the most points, R5's the least.

As you noted it is only the front tyres that affect how many points are awarded, and it is only the tyres you start the race with that are counted. You can start a longer race with N1's and switch to N3's in the pits without losing any points for the change.
 
Let me explain my observation, trying my best not to be confusing (as is often the case). You enter the race, A-spec pts are not high enough so you add ballast & do everything within the setup for max A-pts for the car (see effected items listed above earlier). You re-enter the race against the same cars, still not enough points. Not even close to 200.

Here is where it gets curious. Take this car & exit the race to the Event screen re-entered same track over & over only to get less A-points than the original attempt.

What I've noticed is after the second attempt at the same race & maximized A-Spec car. If at this point your still not getting enough points, then you have to go to the garage again, remove ballast, upgrade tires & maybe add wing or HP (all of this varies). Then exit to Event screen, re-inter race, go to garage, remove everything for Max A-pts, re-enter race - same cars/opponents.

At this point A-spec points will be higher than your initial attempt (most the time). Anyone else notice this variation in lineup car upon entering races for max A-spec'n?

It seems to me that whatever the criteria for your competition is, it's effected by what & how you enter. Enter a race with a car that can't be A-spec'd higher (maxed out) & you end up getting competition such that your A-spec goal of 200 pts is un-reachable. The car has to be over-rated upon entering & then A-spec maxed in order to get 200 pts in some events. Even then there is a list of races where 200 are not possible.

Observations, Feedback?

wW

So, if anyone else want to help collect data and draw some conclusions about GT4's A-Spec points, please let me know. It seems nobody saw this last time. I hope someone does reply though, because I don't want to bump it again.

Sorry guys for the late reply.
1. The reason for getting different Aspec on offer is most likely due to different lineups you're offered. The only other reason you may be offered more points is due to your loss of hp during a previous race.
This you can easily test on the Motegi oval. Take a car with new oil, run the race and note points. Dont exit the race entirely but restart it immediately after completion. Due to oil wear you get offered more points against same line up.
2. The whole aspec thing is explained in Famine's thread in this subforum.
3. Cobra explains how to "calculate" which lineups / cars will potentially net you 200 points.

AMG.
 
Exactly AMG. When Famine tested he got different lineups, so maybe if they were the same, the results would show power and weight based A-Spec calculations. I really think there is a way to find the exact number of A-Spec points for any car, even if modified.
 
....... I really think there is a way to find the exact number of A-Spec points for any car, even if modified.
There is, well near exact anyway, and that can be found in Wild Cobra's thread located in this subforum.
The weight calculation is not completely linear when it comes to the extreme ends of the scale. Ive used his method a few times and find them quite accurate. Very helpful in e.g. 1000 mile races.

AMG.
 
I've used his list before. I'm talking about using HP and Weight to find the points, rather than a list.
 
Forgive me for the thread revival.

As an A-Spec point veteran, I know that all that affects A-Spec points are power, weight, tires, downforce, and opponent lineup, as is reasonably well-known. But, while Wild Cobra's A-Spec car value list is very useful and definitely accurate, I am having trouble figuring out how some of those initial car values were originally set by PD. The Ram glitch is obvious and well-known, so I won't go on about it, but there is one particular example that really sticks out in my mind as being nonsensical, although there are others I've found strange.

That example is that the Peugeot 905 race car has a significantly lower A-Spec value than any of the LMPs (that is, it earns more points in a race against the same lineup). What strikes me as bizarre about that is that the 905 weighs 750 kg vs. the 900 kg of the LMPs, while having 810 HP, more than any of the LMPs. Because it comes with the same stock tires (R3s) and the same stock downforce (63/88, also the maximum downforce of all these cars), shouldn't it get fewer A-Spec points, and by quite a margin?

All I can think of is that PD really did set all the cars' A-Spec values themselves, and that there really isn't some hard-to-figure-out formula for calculating cars' initial values. Thankfully, they did at least seem to include multipliers for changes to tires, power, downforce, and weight, which Wild Cobra has calculated.

Sorry if this has been discussed before. Famine's first post is definitely wrong, although it does point you in the right general direction. Essentially, we can calculate A-Spec points, but only by knowing the cars' (yours and the AIs') initial values and the modifications to them, which does not necessarily reflect their final power, weight, etc. I think I need to try to find two cars with different initial values to modify to the exact same stats, and see whether they do in fact get different A-Spec point amounts.

Isn't it weird that we still don't fully understand a four-year-old game, even with so many people working to figure it out?
 
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I was thinking of that myself a few days ago, but I believed that I didn't had the right to post it, since I'm not a veteran like most of you. I only recently started my hunt for A-Spec points, but I won't make such a big deal out of it, mainly because of the time spent on wearing out cars, looking for lineups, and obviously, the 24 hours endurance races and some "almost endurance" races. Good discovery, Austin343! 👍
 
I just recently found out about A-Spec points, and what they are! ive been playing since GT1 and didnt notice when i would have a way powerful car for an easy race and would only get 2 points. now when i race with a stock car its around 60-90 points. way better and more challenging
 
Must say the more I drove GT4, the whole A-spec system seemed less and less believable.
Some races you can win 200points fairly easily (try taking the stock Honda S800 to the Sunday Cup HSring on N2 tyres with NOS and find a good lineup), while on others it gives you just about 15 points and you can't even see the opponent's cars having disappeared on the horizon after a lap or so. It's just too uneven and unrelated to the actual race difficulty to give the feeling of having real meaning.
 
Must say the more I drove GT4, the whole A-spec system seemed less and less believable.
Some races you can win 200points fairly easily (try taking the stock Honda S800 to the Sunday Cup HSring on N2 tyres with NOS and find a good lineup), while on others it gives you just about 15 points and you can't even see the opponent's cars having disappeared on the horizon after a lap or so. It's just too uneven and unrelated to the actual race difficulty to give the feeling of having real meaning.

Hmm, I think if you can't win a race with only 15 points at stake you may be playing the wrong game. I do agree it does seem uneven difficulty on 200 point events, for instance it is very easy for max points on say the Speedster Trophy, while on the Saleen races it is very very difficult.

I see it as quite a good system though and quite well balanced with easy and tough races for max points, some races are tough in different ways. Infact my only gripe with the A-Spec system is the fact you can't get 200 points for all races, have not done too much reading into why TBH, maybe a bug in the game I dunno but it seems very strange to me.
 
The only circumstances under which I could imagine having difficulty winning a low A-Spec point race is when the AI cars have much, much better tires than you do. The game tends to underestimate the increase in difficulty produced by downgrading tires, so if you're in a powerful car on N tires and the AI cars are low-powered but on R tires, then you're likely to get low points but a hard race. Also, there isn't enough weight given to the effect of the drivetrain, so FF cars are usually poor choices for high-point races. There's also the major issue of NOS not affecting points. Generally, though, the system does a decent job; there are only a couple cars that have flawed initial values and therefore offer more points than is reasonable, like the Ram or the GSX-R/4.

nemesis, read this thread; it should give you some insight into point calculations. Basically, every car has a "base" A-Spec value that attempts to rank it against other cars when stock, and changing from the default tires to a different set will multiply that base value by a given constant that is the same for every car. Nobody has yet quantified a general formula for the multiplying effects of a given percentage change in horsepower, weight, or downforce, but those can be guessed well enough for our purposes through experimentation. The list of initial values is really the key, though, and is immensely useful, even if some of the values that Wild Cobra Z28 calculated are a bit off from the actual ones.
 
The only circumstances under which I could imagine having difficulty winning a low A-Spec point race is when the AI cars have much, much better tires than you do. The game tends to underestimate the increase in difficulty produced by downgrading tires, so if you're in a powerful car on N tires and the AI cars are low-powered but on R tires, then you're likely to get low points but a hard race.

Agree, it does. That's part of why I think the A-spec points aren't related to actual difficulty all that much. If you'd slap on, say, N1 tyres on a SLR Mclaren/Merc, and with driving aids off, things get diabolically hard but the game usually only awards a few extra points for that.

Happened to me fairly often, since I rarely raced with more than N2/N3 tyres recently - those default S2's are just too unrealistically grippy for anything but Le Mans-type cars. Too easy for even bigger street cars. On the other hand, the game makes it possible to put wings/downforce on even tiny Kei-type cars, where they look out of place (and those wouldn't go fast enough to barely generate noticeable downforce anyway); not very attractive either.
(That said, some smaller cars are surprisingly fun to race. The Honda City Turbo II or S800 may not look like much, but are fairly nippy even in stock form.)
 
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It would appear that wearing out a high power car has gives more A spec value then wearing out a lower power car, even though the % horsepower lost is the same.
I can get 200 A spec for the Saleen race, but only 176 for the Hyundai and 166 for Copen.
Therfore A spec is base on nett horsepower numbers and not a percentage value of horespower ?

So a Aspec formula to me must be base value (60 on equal cars) + difference in HP + difference in mass + difference in tire.

The Copen is 1 aspec point per 8 units of mass.
The difference in not getting to 200 must be the lower adder for the hp difference.
 
Must say the more I drove GT4, the whole A-spec system seemed less and less believable.
Some races you can win 200points fairly easily (try taking the stock Honda S800 to the Sunday Cup HSring on N2 tyres with NOS and find a good lineup), while on others it gives you just about 15 points and you can't even see the opponent's cars having disappeared on the horizon after a lap or so. It's just too uneven and unrelated to the actual race difficulty to give the feeling of having real meaning.

Hmm, I think if you can't win a race with only 15 points at stake you may be playing the wrong game. I do agree it does seem uneven difficulty on 200 point events, for instance it is very easy for max points on say the Speedster Trophy, while on the Saleen races it is very very difficult.

I see it as quite a good system though and quite well balanced with easy and tough races for max points, some races are tough in different ways. Infact my only gripe with the A-Spec system is the fact you can't get 200 points for all races, have not done too much reading into why TBH, maybe a bug in the game I dunno but it seems very strange to me.

I can relate to both of your observations pointed out here. Of such as described is the 200 or Max. A-spec point challenge.

As to why, I think it could be speculated upon almost in definitely. Only Kaz knows for sure and I don't know if he's ever been asked about it outside the
the inner sanctum of PD. Thats quite a commentary at this point, coming on the eve of the release (I hope) of GT5.
With the exception of the 200pt. forum here at gtplanet, I am not aware of it being a topic for discussion elswhere, much less actual pursuance.

Having become intimately aquainted with all of these races, this is my theory, much of which has been pointed out, here and there, by others in the threads here:

If all the races in the game had been relegated to a "realistic status", once conquered, as with anything, the desire, interest, and draw of the challenge will wane considerably and thus the games playtime days are numbered.

Depending on individual "skill level" and approach", this can mean a short stint with many games, and as compared to most, GT4 even if approached on a realistic basis offers considerably more gameplay than average. To Kaz's credit, and I believe evidenced by the following of those here at gtplanet, he doesn't skimp but strives to provide a quality product and at the same time make it appealing to as broad a spectrum of gamers as possible.

His continual "give them more than their moneys worth approach" is a rare and noble principle that endears many, myself included, to him and the GT series. Herein lies the reason I believe the A-spec dimension of the game was added.

To provide a challenge beyond the norm, whereby the graduating A-spec points scale of difficulty, if pursued will in some events take you beyond what appears possible. At times this will leave the "norm or realistic" but contrary to the initial impression of "whats the point", I found the challenge so daunting in some ways it became irresistable to try to overcome. Likewise I found even though it left the norm, my skills actually had to expand and improve to overcome this obstacle.

The end result was a wealth of additional playtime (moneys worth) with this game that otherwise would have been lost and is rarely present in all but a handful of games.

Ultimately it is a game, a "fantasy" and to each his own, as has been pointed out by many. However, this fact in and of itself, gives me pause when attempting to restrict my participation to a "realistic only approach". While that certainly has its place, had that restriction been maintained I don't believe I could have ever really appreciated or understood this A-spec point dimension.
 
Had I not found Route's thread at the time I would have loooooong given up on this game. Pursuing 200 Aspecs made me a better driver although I still am a very mediocre player (ranked bottom Div 4 Silver). And yes the 200 point system is very much flawed but it's been the cheapest pastime I've ever pursued.
Just think of it ... a PS2 + gamedisc, 2 wheels and a seat cost me Eur 850. For approx 2 years I played the game at average of 3 hours per day, that's 2200 hours. Hourly cost Eur 0.38. I'm pretty sure it's actually less than that since I've played it longer. Where do you find another hobby at that price?

AMG.
 
Hmm, I think if you can't win a race with only 15 points at stake you may be playing the wrong game.
If a field has a wide range of cars, like the European historical series, the ratings of the weaker cars drag down the points awarded. It might be easy to come second, but if the strongest car far outclasses the rest of the field, then it's really the only car you need to work to beat. But you get fewer points because of the evaluation of the irrelevant weaker cars.

Carefully selecting the lineup in some events can change the points awarded by an order-of-magnitude, in many cases without changing what car you're going to actually need to beat. Take the Nurb 24 for instance. The GT300 cars (and it's usually only one) drag down the points awarded. If you can get a field without one, all of a sudden you're getting a lot more points for essentially the same race.

That is, there are some cases where 15 points can be pretty challenging; at least as challenging as a 60-point race in a single-model series, but often even more so.
 
I remember doing some quite challenging races at Grand Canyon Reverse Hard for less than 10 A-spec points. For instance, try a really powerful but twitchy RWD car with no downforce. Then hope that you can somehow get in front of the WRC car that you're racing against and block him for 5 laps. :)
 
Must say the more I drove GT4, the whole A-spec system seemed less and less believable.
...

It's just too uneven and unrelated to the actual race difficulty to give the feeling of having real meaning.

I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I completely quit paying attention to A-spec points about 5% into the game.
 
"Take A-spec points with a grain (ton) of salt" is perhaps an appropriate attitude, too.
 
Has anyone ever noticed that supposedly identical AI opponents in a one-make race will differ in speed based on color of car?

Recently I ran a series of B-spec races in a Hyundai one-make race at Hong Kong. I noted the color and the lap times over a total of about 20 races. It emerged that the quickest lap times were invariably turned by the white one, and the slowest were usually performed by the red one. The difference between fastest and slowest was about 0.5 seconds for the two lap total.

Now, admittedly, 0.5 seconds is not a lot of time. But if it's available to you for free, why not take it?

It seems to me that if the above effect is valid and consistent, one should avoid starting a race with a white Hyundai on pole, and be eager to start with the red car on pole.

Furthermore, in the Hyundai events, there are cars colored silver, white, red, blue, teal and black. The color of car you start in will never appear on the starting grid. So it would seem that the best going-in strategy would be to show up ready to race in a white car, as another white car will never be in your path. Then race only when a red car appears on pole.

The race can be rehearsed in B-spec to verify the performance of your competitors. When I have re-run the same race over again, even several times, the AI lap times will not change.

It would be important to know if this effect differed amongst our individual editions of the game. So some testing by different individuals might be in order to go much further with this idea.
 
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Yes, while investigating the Daihatsu Copen Races (now why would I be doing that?) I noticed that your colour never appears in the lineup. That is, the colours of the chosen opponents vary when you change the colour of your car. I had sort of assumed colour would be independent of performance, though, but I could be wrong (again). The colours appeared to be independent of the sequences of lineup orderings of the two types (Active and Detachable top), which seemed to remain fixed, although when I attempted to shift them with replays or other events, the sequences of lineups did not really match what I expected.

My wife and I call the Copens "Noddy cars". Especially the yellow one. She says I should only race them against each other, and not against the big mean [Sports prototype] racing cars.
 
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Super find there Dotini, I did notice this with the Saleen one make and the Crossfire one make series aswell, colour of the cars does make a difference.
Although multiple colour's can show up in these series. But there are definately some slower colours out there.

It might appear the "Stig" :sly: shows up in the white Hyundai on race day :nervous:
 
Interesting -
I have been running a number of Formula GT races recently and the color of the FGT on the pole does seem to make a difference. In some cases the first place FGT would be much stronger than the other FGTs, and would be that much harder to catch. I did not run any tests, but I started to avoid the race if an orange FGT was on pole. This looks like an area were additional studies are required.

GTsail290
 
Just noticed something strange, apologies if this has been mentioned before.

I'm doing the World classics race in the professional hall, and cycled through to lineup #5 for the full championship, which has in order the following cars:
1, Alfa Romeo Spider Duetto '66
2, Skyline BLRA'3 '62
3, Ginetta G4 '64
4, Toyota 2000GT '67
5, Corvette Coupe '63

with me in my Duetto at the back. This is a very beatable lineup for 125 points, with the front 3 cars blocking the 2 fast ones, allowing me to cleanly take the lead by corner 1.

So I decide to jump back to my garage to save the game, so I won't have to cycle through the lineups again should I somehow lose the race (blocking that Corvette on lap 2 is challenging..).
However, when I then return to the pre-race screen, the starting order has been reversed!
The Corvette is now on pole, leaving the race impossible to win..

I did this 3 times, to confirm it wasn't just a fluke.

I usually save between the races in a championship, but rarely before the first race. I've never seen anything like this before though..
 
Alhajoth -
I've confirmed that your findings seem to occur in other Championships as well.

I took my Pagani Zonda C12S 7.3 to the Pan Euro Championship in the European Hall and went against lineup # 1 as follows:
Mercedes SL65 AMG R230 '04
Cizeta V16T '94
TVR T350C '03
Audi RS 6 '01
Mercedes SLR McLaren '03
Pagani Zonda C12S 7.3 '02 (me)

I then exited to save and re-entered and the lineup changed to the following:
Cizeta V16T
TVR T350C
Mercedes SLR McLaren
Mercedes SL65 AMG R230
Audi RS 6
Pagani Zonda C12S 7.3

I then did some qualifying laps to see what would happen and the order ended up as follows:
Pagani Zonda C12S 7.3 (me of course:))
Mercedes SL65 AMG R230
TVR T350C
Cizeta V16T
Mercedes SLR McLaren
Audi RS 6

My first thoughts about what you found was that the lineup was doing some qualifying laps while you were away (you know, signing autographs, getting some refreshments, obtaining last minute coaching from your co-driver, checking GTPlanet for suspension settings) and put the Corvette in first. However, in my tests (I also tried this against lineup # 2 and lineup # 3) while the order changes, it does not exactly match the qualifying lineup, though I found that the slowest car stays in last place.:dunce:

My guess is that the game is changing things up just to give us a hard time.:yuck:

One last thought is that maybe the game is putting the cars in approximate finishing order. Wouldn't that be nice! I am going to check this by running the first race at Opera Paris and see how the field ends up (straps on helmet).

I'm back after running the entire Championship:
Each race had a different finishing order. And the overall order at the end of the Championship was also different (it was my Zonda, the SLR McLaren, the TVR, the Cizeta, the SL65 and then the Audi). Interestingly the finishing order at Cote d'Azur was the same as the starting order, and matched the order after the switch before the start of the Championship. Another interesting thing is that the lineup switch that happened before the start of the Championship, does not change. By this I mean that each following race starts with the cars in the same order. I quess that I am still puzzled by the switch.


Another followup - I re-ran the Championship in my red Cizeta V16T against lineup # 1 (which has the same cars as mentioned above) without the exit to save the game before the first race at Opera Paris. From race two onwards, the starting order was the switched order seen above, with the AI Cizeta V16T in first followed by the TVR T350C and then the SLR McLaren, etc. The game seems to like the switched lineup.

On the chance that the game was using each cars value to determine the starting order, I checked Wild Cobra's thread and found that this did not explain the order either. Still puzzled.


Respectfully,
GTsail290
 
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I always thought that that post-exiting-to-save starting order would be the same as if you had started a practice session and immediately exited it without posting a time. Some fields would give the same post-qualy starting order every time, but some aren't so certain with a couple or a few cars in with a chance at pole.

I think it's to be expected that the finishing order at Cote d'Azur was the same as the starting order. Human F1 drivers are very rarely able pass each other there, so the dumbest AI known to man surely hasn't a snowball's chance in hell.

Interesting -
I have been running a number of Formula GT races recently and the color of the FGT on the pole does seem to make a difference. In some cases the first place FGT would be much stronger than the other FGTs, and would be that much harder to catch. I did not run any tests, but I started to avoid the race if an orange FGT was on pole. This looks like an area were additional studies are required.
Definitely interesting - must keep this in mind when I'm trying for my last few max-point FGT races.
 
....

I think it's to be expected that the finishing order at Cote d'Azur was the same as the starting order. Human F1 drivers are very rarely able pass each other there, so the dumbest AI known to man surely hasn't a snowball's chance in hell....

Imtheleprechaun, You are exactly correct!

At Cote d'Azur the AI are unable to pass one another, so the finishing order remains the same. The first place Cizeta V16T actually pulls away from the other cars even though its not the best turning car in the game. The Cizeta does have a lot of torque.👍

GTsail290
 

Test 4:
214PS, 1610kg, 132.9, 200
214PS, 1336kg, 160.2, 89
261PS, 1336kg, 195.4, 70
317PS, 1610kg, 196.9, 75
317PS, 1336kg, 237.3, 8

We can see that the middle car, despite having a marginally worse PWR than the fourth car, has a significantly improved A-spec points tally.


I don't understand how the middle car (or third car) in this list has a "significantly improved A-spec points tally" than the forth car despite it having 5 less A-spec points than the forth car. If anything the middle car has a worser A-spec point tally than the forth car and can't be described as having a "significantly improved A-spec points tally".
 

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