Official alignment values thread

Discussion in 'GT4 Tuning' started by Greyout, Feb 28, 2005.

  1. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Hey , very cool, you've got GT4 and the ability to look at the values.

    Any chance you could let me know how you've managed this?

    Regards

    Scaff
     
  2. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    it's on 2 fps console
     
  3. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    It will be interesting to get some more info on this once you have the credits for the race suspension.

    When you do it would be nice to see how toe looks at a range of settings, so we can see the incremental change at say stages of 10 for the full range of + and - from zero.

    That way we would have a definative view of what toe is doing visually; looking forward to this one a lot.

    Regards

    Scaff
     
  4. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    Yes, but sadly, we can't see the outside of the range value on setup screen. Every value outside normal displayable value will be reverted to minimum when entering setup screen.
    Although I can display toe range in step right now, we can't be sure which is which before I can get enough credit.
    I hope I can get it soon.
     
  5. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Fingers crossed on that one, would be great to be able to know 100% for sure on this.

    Regards

    Scaff
     
  6. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    It seems I don't have to get credit to equip FC suspension.
    This configuration
    [​IMG]
    will be stored in memory as
    [​IMG]

    This configuration
    [​IMG]
    will be stored in memory as
    [​IMG]

    So, -4 toe will be stored as 124, +4 toe will be stored as 132, and 0 toe will be stored as 128.
    Because stored value 0, which should represent -127 toe looks as toe out, then -4 should be treated as toe out too.

    255 toe image later.
     
  7. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Very, very interesting, I would still like to see how each increment of say 10 looks on the car, just to be sure that nothing wierd is happening.

    Regards

    Scaff
     
  8. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    10 is too small (25 test), I will prepare in 40 increment.
     
  9. Badsight

    Badsight

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    143
    negative front And rear Toe (ingame being the + numbers) will fight understeer the best ?

    compared too a + , - combination ?
     
  10. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    As GT4 toe visually the same as GT2 toe, my opinion for GT4 toe handling is also the same as GT2:
    • using rear toe out will make the car more turning oversteer
    • using rear toe in will make the car more rear sliding oversteer
    • using front toe out will make the car more sharp understeer
    • using front toe in will make the car more dull understeer
    using front toe will create understeer and using rear toe will create oversteer.

    So, IMO, using both negative for front and rear toe will make the car behave the same way as before but with less front and rear tire traction, the car will be going sideways easier.
     
  11. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    some image
    using toe = 10/20, 30/40, 50/60, 70/80, 90/100, 110/120
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    same, from back
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    from back, different angle
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  12. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    -120 front / +120 rear toe image:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  13. lsaporiti

    lsaporiti

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    59
    Im not sure the exact measures of the toe angles, but im gonna put it like this.
    You put a compass in the middle of the tires, and 90º is = 0º
    So, negative is from "0º" to --> and of course positive from "0º" to <--
    But, i dont know the exact proportions, but im pretty sure that 1 = 5º

    Hope this has helped.
     
  14. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    5 = 1º ? +120 would result in 24º ? It seems that way.
     
  15. lsaporiti

    lsaporiti

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    59
    No, itll be 1 = 5&#186;

    Even though, as i said before, im not sure of the exact measures.

    Cheers
     
  16. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    Are you saying +4 toe = 20º toe? Then the answer would be no.
    If what you said is true, then this thread wouldn't be exist, because 20º is clearly visible. And from my test, no car would be drivable using toe that big.

    I measure the angle by using photoshop and I think the angle for toe value of 120 would be around 24º.
    [​IMG]

    That would mean 1 = 0.2º. But as I can't zoom it, this is only estimation.
     
  17. lsaporiti

    lsaporiti

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    59
    no man.. in the photo u put there that isnt 0.2 degrees. thats at least 15.
     
  18. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    The car in the photo use -120 front / +120 rear toe. It measured in photoshop 23.6º, I round it to 24º.
    So, if +120 = 24º, then +1= 0.2º = 0º12"
     
  19. lsaporiti

    lsaporiti

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    59
    Ohhhhh yeh yeh i didnt understood that part. so.. we did it????? lol
     
  20. ZoomZoom

    ZoomZoom

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    27
    That .2 degree (per click) sounds reasonable to me... Translates to the real world... However any toe over .4 degrees is VERY excessive, at least in autocross vehicles and starts to hinder performance... Maybe track that use a lot more camber are a lil' different and could use more toe...

    Some Miata owners like upto .25 degrees of toe (1/8"), I find that a touch excessive and lately have set my toe at both the front & rear at .125 degrees (1/16") of toe-in...
     
  21. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    What is the effect of that? Excessive of what?
     
  22. ZoomZoom

    ZoomZoom

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    27
    Sucahyo,

    Excessive in terms of tire wear for street driven vehicles... .25 (1/8") toe-in (rear) would be fine if your car spend the majority of its time as an autocross or track car...

    My Miata has a mild case of oversteer in stock form, even more so after I installed stiffer, lowering springs which were nearly 40% stiffer than stock... My toe-in (in front) of .125 (1/8") helps a bit with the oversteer plus it aids freeway speed (and sometimes Autobahn speeds, hehe) stability a good deal...

    I've experimented with different front toe settings myself... Toe-out in front dramatically aids the cars turn-in ability yet causes even more oversteer and made it extremely twitchy at high speeds.
     
  23. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    I see, interesting :tup:
     
  24. RXGem

    RXGem

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    58
    Can anyone else varify ALL this? I was mainly wondering if Toe-in at the rear makes the car slide more.

    Sucahyo, can you, or anyone else, point me to another article on the net proving your statements?
    Also, what do people think would be better for drifting then, +ve or -ve?

    Depending on your driving style they both can be good. Toe-out at the rear can be good for a car that has a very stable rear end that won't swing so easily. Toe-in at the rear can be good for a car that has an unstable rear end, yet, can prove to have much grip during the mid-corner phase (not regarding the possible LSD tweaks).
     
  25. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    The experiment on extreme toe is in this link. Testing this on GT4 is currently impossible for me. Because no cheat is available for changing toe. Playing GT4 using emulator is impossible for me.

    Based on GT4 equivalence of 40 toe (+ and -) in GT2 FR:
    • using more -/negative rear toe (toe out) make exiting and initiating drift easier.
    • using more +/positive rear toe (toe in) make sustaining drift easier, but initiate drift will be harder
     
  26. Ezn

    Ezn

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    1
    I always thought negative toe was toe out. It is in real life. I went back and looked at GT3 because I thought I remembered that it was made clear in the settings. And it does, kind of...

    There is a graphic in GT3 when you adjust the toe setting. I always thought the graphic showed a + towards the inside of the car and a - towards the outside. As I write this, I'm looking right at the toe settings on my TV screen and for the life of me I can't tell which one is + and which is - ! They are flashing red and really very blurry. And I have a pretty decent 32" flat screen. It looks kinda like negative is toe out, but I can't be sure. The text is as vague as in GT4

    Can anyone take a look at GT3 and see if you can tell?

    In addition to the toe in/out issue, GT4 is disappointingly vague on pretty much all the suspension settings. Rebound should be 4X bound? Really? Wtf? Why do they set them equal? Stabilizer info is kinda useless, too. And I've yet to talk to anyone who really knows how to tune the LSD.

    Let's hope GT5 is more helpful. Some default settings that work would be nice.
     
  27. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Not strictly speaking true, I've worked for a number of car manufacturers and it varies. The majority of manufacturers do not use either positive or negative figures to differentiate, simply saying that a wheel is toe'd in or out by xdegrees. A smaller number of manufacturers use the same convention as that used with camber, in that negative values are toe'd in and positive values are toe'd out.

    Unfortunatly as with many suspension settings there is no simple answer.


    Edit to add
    I've also just had a look at GT3 and that seems to show the following (PAL)
    Front & Rear Toe - Pos = Toe in / Neg = Toe out

    However the diagram on screen does not make things clear as the diagram for the front tyres shows toe from the front face of the tyre, while the rear tyre is shown as being from the rear face of the tyre.

    Additionally from a GT4 point of view I can remember from some translated Japanese NTSC set-up screens that seemed to indicate that Neg was Toe-in!!!

    Only a little bit confusing then


    Quite agree that the default settings are very vague, as are the descriptions. Its why I wrote my own tuning manuals. I don't honestly think that default values will ever work that well, but on the rebound subject, for road cars in real life rebound is often set between 2 and 5 times the value of bound.

    Regards

    Scaff
     
  28. whh01

    whh01

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  29. 4DSC

    4DSC

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    227
    Wow, who would think such an issue would cause 8 pages worth of discussion on what the creators intended toe in/out to be. There was just way too much to read, so after goin through the first few pages, skimming through the rest, and doing much testing in the game, Im almost 90% sure I got it down on what it all means in the game, what PD intended it to be, and the ultimate answer to this thread will hopefully lie in my post. Sorry if somebody else already pointed this out in the previose pages, but I can still see confusion in the later pages so let me give it a try. Here goes...

    Lets start with what the game tells you each does.

    Toe in at front = oversteer
    Toe out at front = understeer
    Toe in at rear = understeer
    Toe out at rear = oversteer

    Now I noticed that the toe adjustment isn't even noticed until you hit certain speeds, and it seems to only work for stability purposes. Maybe affects turns just a bit on high speeds but thats it. So as you all know, camber adjustment is the main steering changer here.

    All right.. The confusion the creators set up for us... If they pointed out which toe is which, their diagram would actually make more sense in the game then the way it is in real life. So IMO thats there only mistake of not labeling which is which. As you can see, there is no positive camber in the game. Just negative. So even though your actually doing a negative adjustment, the game makes you think otherwise because your increasing the numbers. But it's just that.. It's the way the game has it set up and they didn't intend their toe or camber adjustment charts to be used as the ones in real life. It's a game specific adjustment chart to make adjustment more simple for your average non-alignment knowledged Joe, and thats all it is. Get it guys? I hope Im explaining this right.. Same thing for toe.. Negative in the game is inwards, positive is outwards. Do not get this twisted in real life! :)

    Edit: I forgot to mention that I am almost positive about this because I could really tell a difference with having the car set up with just toe adjustment for pure oversteer at the front and rear with -4 at front and 4 at the rear.. I can really throw the car around as speeds increase. With 4 at the front and -4 at the rear, the car feels like a brick. There ya go..
     
  30. sucahyo

    sucahyo

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    2,171
    I have some picture of it in page 7

    -120 front / +120 rear toe
    [​IMG]

    I'll post ARMAX code if needed.