OK, PD. The Joke's Over. Time to adjust the game.

[Voodoovaj]

I wanted to post in the hopes that someone at Sony takes adjusting the game seriously. Yes, I realize that it's two years old now (almost) and the likelihood of this happening is near zero, but it could happen and it WOULD definitely refresh things a lot.

GT6, has been tweaked to appeal to the Need For Speed crowd, to it's detriment. It does not have the same passionate following GT5 had and I a firm believer that the direction of the game has everything to do with it. Here are the threads that seem to keep going around and I think it is all linked.


Top Speed Thread
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt6-top-speeds-are-not-realistic-please-fix-pd.297382/

AI Thread
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/is-gt6-too-easy.295722/

My own Sticky Tire Thread
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...re-the-tires-too-sticky.324248/#post-10509858

RS tires are always going to be the most popular. I hate them with a passion in GT6. However, if the tires were actually brought closer together in performance, their existence would make sense. CH can stay as is, but everything else NEEDS to bunch up. The entire idea of tire strategy is thrown out the window in GT6. I have yet to see a tire strategy (using harder tires to sacrifice grip for tire life) actually work out. The next softer tire step is always so much better in performance that it negates the advantage of tire life. Tires just aren't like that. A qualifier (like what RS should be) is good for 1 lap, and that lap is maybe 1 second better. The tires should be like a tune not like a completely different car.

This brings up the speed issue. In GT5, 550 was the hot category. in GT6, it's 500. Why? Because the speeds and lap times are comparable and they are within the comfort range of the bulk of players. The Ford GT being a 205mph car is pretty amazing. In GT6 it's a 250mph car!! WTF?!?!?! That isn't fun. People are clamoring for the latest supercars, but our current supercars are already outside the skill level of most drivers, therefore the data will show that slower cars are more popular. Of course they are. We have 200mph RX7's with 300hp engines. A 200mph RX7 should be a 600pp car, not a 500 pp car!


...and the fallout. The AI threads and the difficulty threads. If the AI is set to play the game the same way it was in GT4, or even 5, but the user has cars that are 100-150pp better, the AI is going to appear terrible. Online, the gap between drivers becomes exaggerated. Good drivers are performing leaps and bounds better than average drivers because they can handle higher speeds and corner grip, thereby giving them a massive advantage. I've seen great players who were GT5 diehards simply walk away from gt6 because there is no competition for them. They went from winning by small margins to winning by HUGE margins.

So, here we are. GT7 isn't coming this year for sure. It may come next. What data are they collecting to tune GT7? The data from GT6 of course. Data that currently says that people love extremely grippy tires and cars that are real world slow but in game, insanely fast. I will agree with the directors that going to full sim route is the wrong choice, but the game needs to be FAR more simulator than Arcade. The game needs to adhere to the easy to understand, hard to master concept, which it does, but it needs to return to it's roots a bit with the real world relevance.

So that's my rant. I'm hoping for a game changing update.

 

[The87Dodge]

You should also mention the cars that are represented incorrectly, like the Volvo 240 GLT and the Pozzi Motorsports Camaro.

 

[Voodoovaj]

You should also mention the cars that are represented incorrectly, like the Volvo 240 GLT and the Pozzi Motorsports Camaro.

I'm trying to focus on the most impactful change. Going into individual cars to adjust things is more time consuming than changing a system that affects everything.

Fixing the tires affects the entire game and ALL the cars are affected by top speed issues. The top speed problem also fixes the PP system to a degree since (presumably) low HP cars like the 111r or the Dino will cease to have the grunt to run the same top speed as higher HP cars. It may also fix the single player to a degree.

As with any negotiation, there needs to be requests that are actionable and reasonable.

 

[Voodoovaj]

This looking good. Almost 100% agreement. That's pretty rare here. Are you listening PD?

 

[YZF]

The 'sad' news is that nobody from PD is watching this place (anymore).

But hope dies last

 

[Voodoovaj]

The 'sad' news is that nobody from PD is watching this place (anymore).

But hope dies last

(Bolding some points for the TLDR crowd)

Not true. Every game has community manager. As long as we are getting seasonal event updates, there is a community manager. The amount of leeway each manager gets varies. The amount of pull each manager has varies. I am sure that the meetings at PD are mostly GT7, but someone is still reporting on GT6 and will be until they shut the servers down in a couple of years.

The more we get YES votes in this thread, the greater the likelihood that the community manager can walk into his weekly meeting and say "The community would like this changed. I think we should change it." We don't have critical mass yet, but if we get a couple hundred or more YES votes, it will be serious. If we get 1000 (which might be a stretch goal), the change will definitely happen. If we have unanimity on the top YES vote (tires and top speed), that sends a clear message and we won't need as many votes.

Ask people to check this thread and click the YES.

As much as people think that we are not being heard, there is an art to it. The most passionate fans are the evangelists for a product. There is always going to be a clash between the people that want the ultra-sim out of GT because that's never going to be the case. The ultra-sim is a niche category. HOWEVER, if we make enough of a stink over something that keeps GT inside it's creative box, but makes it better, then there is power.

Right now, all the community manager sees is "I hate this, I hate that, PD is the devil". That's just going to get ignored. I still play this game (almost) daily. It's a good "go to" game, but it can be better, and it's DEFINITELY gone in the wrong creative direction. The price drop has brought more people on board. NOW is the time to make a design change and see what the impact is.

Any change can be undone. We've seen this in updates already, so no harm if we, as the evangelists, are wrong and the game suffers because of it. My instinct says that the community is right on these points, and if we make a unified stink, change will happen.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Your heart is in the right place, but I think the Kaz Q&A was a major wet blanket for anyone with any hope left of communicating with PD directly or indirectly. The absolute silence on the course maker combined with the blog taking a swing at everything but the GT series, just serves to put the nail into that coffin. Most of us are just burnt out after dozens of similar threads and not a single peep out of Kaz and the boys regarding anything we have had to say.

 

[Shahar]

It's a bit weird. I don't have any real data but it's looks like GT5/6 were more for causal players(-> more people) but now only the hardcore fans play GT6.
I will share this thread and hope it will be seen by PD.
You make something for everyone, you make it to no one.

 

[kilesa4568]

Fair enough at the semi rant to PD. Things like the tires, top speed's and AI are off for the game, but don't you think the game's a bit long in the tooth for such major changes? If there's a minuscule chance they read this though...

I can live with the tires (I'll drop a compound) and even the top speeds (over 200mph scares me) but I agree wholeheartedly re the AI. Mr Penso, above, had the perfect answer. Skill levels.

We've seen some seasonal's where the AI seem to be able to get round the track quicker. Still brainless, but quicker. We've also seen them "get mad" and pressure us after we take the lead. Give us a hardcore, or if you like, simulator option, where they drive that quick and maybe grid starts can come back into the game as well. <---wishful thinking. Make them as aggressive as hell so they fight for the line instead of turning placid and gifting us the line all the time.

They've already got it in the game so a simple "on/off" will do.

I imagine we'll get to paintable door hinges instead.

 

[TonyJZX]

Unintended consequences.

One of the funny things is how changes break the system. We have seen changes make certain races harder than they were at the start of the game.

I think its just too late for GT6. We're probably more than half way thru the effective life of this title and I think wholesale changes like this would actually alienate more people than not.

 

[SVX]

I'd rather a tyre model that doesn't feel like it's made of concrete rather than this other stuff, it's a simcade at the end of the day.

 

[ryzno]

I voted, NO-Don't mess with the game because I will have to re-tune everything.
Why? Because I will have to re-tune everything...

With that said, I would like them to address the issues you mentioned and a list of others. In the next release of the game.
It's too late in GT6's life, to start making such drastic changes. When everyone has learned how to tune with the games flawed settings. I know I would not return, just cause they fixed a few things in a year+ old game...

 

[Andefir]

I didn't really know how off the game was with top speed until I tested the R34 on the SSRX and found that the top speed was something around 300km/h. Then I went on the internet and I found this: The R34 only has a top speed of around 250km/h. This really needs to be fixed. I think they should improve what we have already. Sounds, performance of cars and whatever else there is, and then mess about with the course maker and livery editor and what not, If there ever will be some form of a livery editor.

 

[ALB123]

I didn't really know how off the game was with top speed until I tested the R34 on the SSRX and found that the top speed was something around 300km/h. Then I went on the internet and I found this: The R34 only has a top speed of around 250km/h. This really needs to be fixed. I think they should improve what we have already. Sounds, performance of cars and whatever else there is, and then mess about with the course maker and livery editor and what not, If there ever will be some form of a livery editor.

Yeah, the top speed issue is absolutely ridiculous. Knowing that PD actually had it right in GT5 makes it all the more painful to deal with in GT6. What really bothers me is how just about every car will also pull like a rocket all the way up to it's top speed. My favorite "tuner" in GT6 is Ridox. I'm a huge fan of his replica builds. He has a C7 Corvette Z06 tune that suffers from PD's top speed flaw and we found that installing the Flat Floor helped that particular car's situation. It lowered the top speed significantly AND it also slowed the car's progression from 125-175 MPH quite significantly, which made it much more realistic. Unfortunately, you can't install Flat Floors on all cars, nor should you have to. It's a frustrating problem, no doubt.

 

[Thematic]

What really bothers me is how just about every car will also pull like a rocket all the way up to it's top speed.

Doesn't seem to hold for RUF. BTR and CTR also have a reasonable top speed (not bouncing the limiter, either), though they were built as record breaking machines I suppose.

 

[alexnipi]

some cars have unrealistic top speeds but others they are realistic

 

[Voodoovaj]

AI and skill levels - I said it before and I will repeat it WE HAVE SKILL LEVELS ALREADY. Go to the options and adjust your AI aggressiveness to the max. It really does nothing as far as I can tell. Plus, having worked with complex AI, I assure you it is not a simple fix regardless of what you may find in any other game. But this is neither here nor there.

I don't know how the GT AI is set up, but some systems employ files that (in layman's terms) tell the AI how to drive the car. If the GT6 AI is using the GT5 (or earlier) files, then the AI will conflict with the current car abilities. The only way to "fix" this would be to exaggerate the rubber banding (which seems to be the case)


As for it being too late, GT5 got a major PP change update midway through it's life. It was a misguided update, but still. Does someone read these threads? Yes. Not all of them, but yes, someone does read them once they get to critical mass. 36 outright yes votes so far!

 

[YZF]

some cars have unrealistic top speeds but others they are realistic

As this is the aero issue, the faster you go, the more difference there is. So when checking cars, you must test those which are capable of going fast enough (180mph/300kph or more is the best for such test, although even above 130mph/210kph acceleration difference already occurs)

 

[Sick Cylinder]

For me the most important adjustment would be to go back to linking aero settings to PP as they were with GT5. Previously as a host if I set PP at a certain level people made a choice between high downforce and easy to drive or high power with low downforce and hard to drive. Now that the link has been abolished people just pick high downforce which creates unrealistic levels of grip. There are some car matchups which are now not possible (e.g. I used to race Alfa TZ2 v Cobra 427) and some one make series are no longer enjoyable - for example the Formula GT was a dream to race on comfort softs in GT5 with maximum ballast and minimum downforce - now as a host I can't control the downforce setting via the PP setting.

I agree with most of the other previous comments - top speeds should be more accurate and there should be less difference between tyre grades to enable tyre strategy to be a feature in endurance racing. There is something wrong with the air drag formula used by PD - it takes a huge amount of extra power to increase a cars speed by any significant amount, but in the game the opposite is true - a little power increase can generate an unrealistic increase in top speed.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

The main issue with PP in GT6 is aero not being included in PP, and most cars have too low aero drag ( CD ) - the old cars ( 70's Ferrari, Lambos ) are tearing through the air like it was nothing, and this causing over the top acceleration above 180kmh. Cars with built in aero usually less affected, but they are still broken. Flat floor also adds to much aero grip, should have about a half of current aero.

 

[Voodoovaj]

The main issue with PP in GT6 is aero not being included in PP, and most cars have too low aero drag ( CD ) - the old cars ( 70's Ferrari, Lambos ) are tearing through the air like it was nothing, and this causing over the top acceleration above 180kmh. Cars with built in aero usually less affected, but they are still broken. Flat floor also adds to much aero grip, should have about a half of current aero.

I can sort of see where PD was coming from on the aero/PP link because some cars improved when you reduced the aero, depending on the track of course. Some cars suffer from too high a PP rating because of their aero, but strangely, none of them are Japanese or they simply don't suffer the ill side effect.

For instance, the Lexus CCR makes sense. 6-7 gear acceleration is REALLY laboured and top speed is realistic. I guess, that designer set the car up properly. They rest are a disaster. The game is flat out better with realistic top speeds.

Some say it's too late...I say why? They Beta tested in app purchase with us. They're still Beta testing the idea of promising features and slowly adding them to the game (even though the features existed in the previous version).

I say why NOT change it? GT 7 will be a product of the GT6 experience, just as GT6 is a product of the GT5 experience. The big hacking disaster of GT5 is why we no longer get special cars as prizes. If we as the faithful, so to speak, don't make a stink, then they will assume everything is just fine. The top speed problem is probably exaggerating the PP imbalance. We all know that they can change it back.

It's not too late. It's the perfect time. Since it's only the hard care playing now (for the most part) then the hard core won't have the same level of fallout. I don't buy that it breaks single player, and if it does by some chance, that's also and easy fix.

 

[Shahar]

It's not exacly relevent but, why not getting cars as prize prevents hacking?

 

[Voodoovaj]

It's not exacly relevent but, why not getting cars as prize prevents hacking?

Actually, it's very relevant and I will explain.

In GT5, Chrome Line cars or Carbon cars were special editions. They could not be bought in the dealership. The same goes for the expansion pack cars like the VW Scirroco or the the Golf R. They needed to be included in everyone's data for them to be able to work online.

The save game exploit made it easy to modify the game files and give your self these special edition cars.

Now that these cars are all available from the dealership, there is nothing that is truly exclusive. Ironically, it shows that having a cool paint scheme was all it took to make a car desirable. Now that everyone has them, they aren't nearly as popular.

This is also why there is nitrous back in the game. It was revealed to be there and people all asked why they couldn't have it. Now, very few people allow it online. I also believe that this is why we have faster cars and stickier tires. MOST people that modified their cars through the exploit, added grip or changed engines to give their cars more speed. Yes, some did it to actually cheat, but many did it to create cars that were more equal. GT5 was just as bad as GT6 with cars that were FAR better than others in the same PP rank.

I think PD has misconstrued these actions as people wanting faster and stickier cars across the board. When, in fact, what people want is a better PP system so that everyone isn't driving the Shelby Series One all the time, or the RX8, or the Dino, etc.

Rock, Paper, Scissors. A car that is light and quick, should not also be blindingly fast, but those outlier cars all are. The RX7 FD for instance. Great handling, great corner exit, and ALSO one of the fastest carts in a straight line. 111r is the same. I added weight to my 111r, lost nothing in terms of cornering ability and still have a car that hit's 300kph at 500pp. There are some 550 cars that aren't that fast.

The Lamborghin Countach has the drag coefficient of a bus (http://chrisoncars.com/2010/09/drag-coefficient-nonsense/) but still has a massive top speed in the game.

SOMETHING IS MASSIVELY WRONG and the entire game is suffering for it.

Adjusting the game will bring back the variety because more people will be able to deal with faster cars. I realize I have stretched my 'two cents" into more like ten dollars, but I don't want to see the franchise go down the path it is heading..

 

[EliteBeast55]

They both need work, ESPECIALLY the max speeds. Tires are okay and only need minor tweaking, but an unrealistic top speed in some cars just takes the cake.

 

[Johnnypenso]

They both need work, ESPECIALLY the max speeds. Tires are okay and only need minor tweaking, but an unrealistic top speed in some cars just takes the cake.

Tires are ok if you don't want GT to move into the true similation end of things and that's probably fine for what kind of game GT is, directed towards the casual player but still fun for hardcore driving. But if it wants to move into the real simulation aspect of things, the tire model needs a complete overhaul and reworking.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Tires are ok if you don't want GT to move into the true similation end of things and that's probably fine for what kind of game GT is, directed towards the casual player but still fun for hardcore driving. But if it wants to move into the real simulation aspect of things, the tire model needs a complete overhaul and reworking.

Agreed, and I don't believe that is a necessity. Having Racing tires with grip level of the current comfort hard tires will probably drive players insane. Bringing closer together though would be acceptable and add a layer of tire choice to races that have tire wear.

In terms of grip, my suggestion would be to leave CH as is. Make RS very similar to SS, and then intersperse the tires in between. For wear, the tires should wear more than the grip they return, or at least, wear accordingly to the grip they return.

The speeds are definitely the more major of the two issues.

I find it telling that VERY few people want the game left alone. This is an incredibly lopsided poll. I'd love to see this thread highlighted in the GTPlanet weekly round up.

 

[Grippy]

I can sort of see where PD was coming from on the aero/PP link because some cars improved when you reduced the aero, depending on the track of course. Some cars suffer from too high a PP rating because of their aero, but strangely, none of them are Japanese or they simply don't suffer the ill side effect.

I've been observing the PP ratings for some time now and abusing the system. I think the rigging is intentional. IRL practically the whole roster of Super GT cars destroy the supposedly equivalent European touring cars in cornering speed for example. So looking at it like this the lower PP rating on SuperGT cars makes them better than the touring cars by default, to reflect real-world results.
Furthermore I do think Kaz purposefully made some of the faster cars IRL have lower pp than they should in game, to reflect how fast the car was in a race against its mean competition IRL. I.e. Ferarri Enzo is stupid fast exotic both in game within a good chunk of the PP and IRL

 

[LM7325]

I do feel a little irked seeing the same cars dominating time trials over and over . But, every racing game I have ever played always have 1 or 2 ringer cars that are clearly better at everything. In real life competition the same issues come up. Cars get nerfed back and forth all season lol. Look at Pirelli World Challenge where I watched a Kia Optima run away from both a Cayman and Mustang. Absurd, but that was how the rules let it play out.

 

[Grippy]

There are plenty of cars that completely destroy anything within their optimal pp range

Supra RZ 97 crazy power/hp ratio for Drags
Suzuki GSX R motorbike engine in a purpose-built chassis for 500-550p races on street tyres
Ferrari Dino
Lotus Elise
SLS GT3 '11 for GT3 races (the amount of grip is way more than the competition)
Honda NSX Type R '02 (just unreal, robotic grip when fully tuned)
I could go on and on and on....
and they tend to relfect their real world counterparts if slightly exaggerated. Making the PP limit unfair and pointless to allot of racers who don't know the good cars. It merely shows what cars can race against what on a basic level. This game feels like an anime in spirit sometimes

 

[LM7325]

Yea that is why I usually just stick to seasonals and time trials. I know about most of the OP cars. PP is obviously a highly flawed method to balance things. Shift and Shift 2, neither were great games but the balancing was a little better. Still, shift came down to 3 cars that were useful late game. Shift 2 was too terrible for me to finish it lol. Racedriver Grid was similar to GT6 in that every category had an obvious ringer in it. Saleen S7R in GT1 category was especially OP anywhere but Le Mans lol.

I feel your pain, I just accept it and try to enjoy it. I still own all those racing games, and many more. But this is the one I always come back to right or wrong lol.